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Why is it when people pose any question of GLFWDA accomplishing anything, they are immediately blasted back "if you know such and such, why not get off your duff and help?". Quite frankly this has been the attitude I have seen for 5 years and from what I have been told has been the attitude for even longer. This isn't the way to grow or accomplish anything in my book. I don't see it changing quickly anytime soon either. It is a sad state we find ourselves in. Quite frankly I think UFWDA needs to be hammered into helping out more than just the west coast high profile trails and the few east coast ones they mention when the occasion calls for it. I am more pissed at their lack of effort anywhere outside of California than anything else.
I have not had any contact with GLFWDA to speak of; yet I have run into the national 'environmental' leader of the UFWDA recently and it is no surprise whatsoever to me that you indeed feel the way that you do.

I took up this sport (first atvs; then side-by-sides; now full-size also) about 8years ago and it is frankly amazing to me how many good people the leaders in all these sports must've scared away over the years.

As you mentioned...if you even so much as question public informational matters like the cancelling of an orv advisory board meeting for a 6 month period (with the minutes not published for 8 weeks after these arrogant arses finally make an appearance)....by gosh you are Satan himself and physically THREATENED to boot!

The incalcuable number of good people who have been chased away by these arrogant jerks in this so-called 'community' will quite frankly never be replaced and unfortunately not a one of them are ever coming back to give (us) a second chance.

If this doesn't ring true to you.....look around at every one of these guys and tell me who's "new" to that "by gosh we make the decisions around here!" group and ask yourself how many of those 'decision makers' are say under the age of 35?

This thread started out with the assertion that I really shouldn't be 'allowed' to question those around us for the sake of unity that we have never achieved.

Sorry, but I just did and it's high time; with these millions on the line; that more people did the same (which is exactly why nobody will stand up here like a man and relate what they've experienced in order to protect their own selfish interests just before the cash is about to be doled out).

Thanks, Lothos for simply telling it like it is.
 

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...expanding on the excellent point Lothos made above:

What questions would a family; couple or even single indivual bring forward to us here in 'the community' if any and all interest in joining these political fights obviously hadn't already been squashed to date?

Potential volunteer candidate:

"What's this about 'our' 22,000 member super-secret and anonymous representative council who has never stated anything public to date beyond..."this is the way it is going to be...and you're all going to damn well like it whether you receive any publicized details from us on exactly who we are or just what we believe in collectively...or not!....(???)"

"....Why does the DNR choose who represents us and how long these 'representatives' will indeed serve on "our" advisory board...to the point of filtering all requests for information regarding 'our' positions and inexplainedly extending their hand-picked candidate's terms until they see damn well see fit to end them?...."

"...And before we get to far beyond questions one and two....why in the heck is everybody in this community flat out 'afraid' to be caught so much as DARING to discuss even the simplest of procedural questions publicly?..."

"....Why is there no public record ONLY EVERY 3 MONTHS taken of what transpires at our own orv advisory board meetings so that everybody is held to their word....and why has the orv community not picked up the tab for such if now somehow 'money' has been brought up as the excuse? (with the more important question being: why does this orv community and the citizens of this state put up with the DNR's summation of said proceedings as the one and only version ever produced publicly as our one and only source of official information regarding the sport?)...."


Here are 4 criminally simple questions that don't even begin to illustrate just why in the heck very few in this state have had absolutely any interest in getting involved to date with orv issues and simply why these overall numbers coupled with the overall quality of said leadership has been so EMBARRASINGLY low compared to every other state in this nation of comparable size (trail system-wise).

And I'm speculating that the last question these potential volunteers might possibly have for us would be the following:

Why does everybody out there seemingly have to 'strap a set on' before they muster up the courage to tackle even one of the questions above for even their "kid's" sake or some kind of reasonable legacy-driven order in the overall political process??? :confused:
 

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yes there needs to be a tail system in the sw part of state closed drn spot is silver like kzoo area maybe alagan area

I have a hard time insisting that suburban Detroiters forget about their southeast Michigan riding area until certain that we're funding our present (and soon to be expanded) trail system properly....if I then look at southwest Michigan's needs as being somehow different.

On the other hand....nobody on this forum seems willing to even discuss Michigan orv funding issues in the first place!

I mean really, folks...has this super-secret and anonymous "22,000 member" representative orv council put out some kind of 'decree' that nobody within ANY of these organizations simply talk man to man about fee increases/newfound monies or how we should spend either?

$4 million dollars is finally unfrozen in November....and by February...everybody's mouth is frozen shut mirroring the weather outside.

It's almost laughable.....:chauncy:
 

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Discussion Starter · #85 · (Edited)
I have a hard time insisting that suburban Detroiters forget about their southeast Michigan riding area until certain that we're funding our present (and soon to be expanded) trail system properly....if I then look at southwest Michigan's needs as being somehow different.

On the other hand....nobody on this forum seems willing to even discuss Michigan orv funding issues in the first place!

I mean really, folks...has this super-secret and anonymous "22,000 member" representative orv council put out some kind of 'decree' that nobody within ANY of these organizations simply talk man to man about fee increases/newfound monies or how we should spend either?

$4 million dollars is finally unfrozen in November....and by February...everybody's mouth is frozen shut mirroring the weather outside.

It's almost laughable.....:chauncy:
Sir,

I've been reading your posts.
I attend the ORV Advisory Board meetings regularly . . .

. . .and I can't figure out what you're talking about.

???

22,000 member secret council?

Huh?

If we had 22,000 people doing ANYTHING for he sport, I think it would be noticed.

ORV funding was discussed at length at the last AB meeting. We are curently the only form of recreation still financially self sufficient. We have 6 million left in the slush fund, but we're spending it down rapidly. There was discussion of forming a Sub-Committee to look into long-term progam funding.

I'd try to address your issues -- If you'd like to clarify them.
 

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"Sir,

???

22,000 member secret council?

Huh?

If we had 22,000 people doing ANYTHING for he sport, I think it would be noticed
...."

It appears that being a member of this council didn't entitle you to being privy as to how others were promoting same in terms of overall representative numbers. This figure is not made up and has been published many times. IMO, any community member (council member or not) caught touting this ridiculous figure for the sole purpose of mis-representing how many folks are actually involved here....should be kicked right the heck out of this community on the spot.

I don't suffer liars and somehow believe that you don't either; yet this is the false figure which follows you and this council around; one of which many are obviously proud of in their own little "we make the decisions here, by gosh" world.

"....funding was discussed at length at the last AB meeting. We are curently the only form of recreation still financially self sufficient. We have 6 million left in the slush fund, but we're spending it down rapidly. There was discussion of forming a Sub-Committee to look into long-term progam funding...."

C'mon, TF... for pete's sake; this was old business back in May of '06 and the damn committee was supposed to have already been formed! http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_22910-61116--,00.htm (page 2 under 'old business'...).

Do you really believe that the uncleansed masses out here are THAT stupid....or are you merely 'testing' us like these arrogant bastards do constantly....just to make sure that everybody with even half a brain is indeed NOT paying attention?

We've got 6 million dollars to spend; 25% more trails to lay down; the sides of our roads are set to open at who knows how much mileage total....and you're telling me that those "in the know" are dicussing maybe forming a committee that has already been committed to being formed almost a year ago with board members named??

What in the heck planet are you guys now on, anyways? :confused:
 

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Discussion Starter · #87 ·
Your link takes me to the Snowmobile Advisory Council's "Meet the Council" page.

But it did bring me somewhere this time.
We're getting closer.

I wish it worked, I'd like to take it to the next AB meeting and present it.
I haven't been around long enough yet to know if things are being missed or duplicated. We need the older guys to help out with those things.

If this is true (and I doubt you'd bring it up if it weren't) it NEEDS to be brought up and instituted -- for REAL this time.


If they're claiming to represent 22,000 ORVs, they're shooting WAY too low.

According to the last NFS survey there are 1.5 MILLION people in Michigan who go 'off-road' in some form or another. The SOS says there are almost 350,000 registered ORVs in the State now, without counting all the street legal, full-sized trucks and Jeeps.
I'm sure your issues are relavant and true, but please just talk to me about them.

I'm not trying to hide anything.
I just want to be brought up to speed, nicely (please).
 

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Trail_Fanatic;429514[B said:
]"...Your link takes me to the Snowmobile Advisory Council's "Meet the Council" page...."[/B]

And I bring you there for the fact that I've spent I don't how many years insisting that the orv advisory board member page be displayed in the exact same manner. It has been a very simple question request put forth to both the DNR and past or current members of this board and one that has been put forth face-to-face on many occasions with the longer-term participants. The last 're-direct' on this insanely stupid issue occured when the state claimed to be "reviewing" the display of this information; as if the board members themselves were somehow restricted from posting this information unlike our sledders who simply acted like MEN on the issue decades ago.

Again, these childish refusals aren't by 'accident'...as they provide both the state and the board itself a very simple guage as to not only how many of us out here actually call the department demanding these e-mail addresses and/or phone numbers....but how many of us out there are interested in or even give a damn about the very issues which we witness being spirited away each and every day involving literally (today) 10's of milluions of potential future funding dollars.

Another example of this arrogance was the elimination of a full 1/3 of the chances that we have (had) to meet with these "Gods" each year; the elimination of our stenographer at the meetings themselves and the cancellation of one said meeting for 6 months because (they) "had nothing to talk about". (while the sledders meet for as many damn times as they see fit).
Besides illustrating the utter arrogance these people carry around by confirming that these meetings are merely a pesky formality on in these orv "God's" eyes....it pointed out the fact that these meetings are not and never were about "us"....but about their little back and forth that the rest of this state will (obviously) never be privy to!
(and if you don't think this is true; why in the heck are you informing us now; atr the exact same time that these idiots are looking into forming the same damn committee that they themselves created just last year to do the same damn thing!).

I have been called the single biggest threat to Michigan motorized recreation in decades by the very person who shouted me down and drummed me out of our board meeting just as I was explaining what I did to you above.
I have been kicked out of an atv club; called every name in the book and physically threatened after demanding that a former board member representing the majority of this community at the very least inform us as to just what transpires on this 'public' body.
I have quit yet another club over their refusal to take a stand on any issue whatsoever and refusal yet again to open up this damn council whether each member effectively puts their damn non-profit status in jeopardy or not.

Again, this is why any and all folks with even a hint of professionalism or possibly an even simpler desire to create any kind of family atmosphere out of this mess.....have deserted the political and club scene in droves over the past few decades.

And frankly....this 'just give 'em 'rude' has been a pretty damn effective strategy to date in terms of shepherding any and all of these issues behind closed doors; as it includes a built-in red flag mechanism activated when any one person complains about being treated as such. (if these bozos can keep us complaining about the 'insignificant' procedural items and encourage the wasting of our time and resources while they insulate themselves from the more important funding questions soon to be locked in for years to come...they honestly could care less how they do this or even how the overall community is portrayed by those seeking to get into THEIR business).

I'll reply later and understand why you would ideally like this to be explained 'nicely'....yet dealing with these guys who have effectively stolen MY resource has not afforded me that attitude to date.
 

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Discussion Starter · #89 ·
I can inderstand your frustration.
I'm getting into all of this because I'm sick and tired of new gates every time I go out to enjoy a day in the woods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #90 ·
It might take me a little while to get to it but . . .

I plan on going through the posts and compiling a list of the names of those of you who have so generously volunteered your support.

I have a helper who said that if I put the list together, he'd contact each of you to exchange info on how we can work together better.

Please be patient with me though . . .
It's been awfully busy lately.
I just can't seem to make enough time to get this done!:(

I need your help with it.

If you're interested in helping in some way, email me (even if you have contacted me already) at:

[email protected]

Use the Heading: 4x4 Volunteer

If you don't mind, please include your name (screen and real), snail mail address, and phone #. If you have a goegraphic area or issue you're particularly interested in, list that too.

I'll put them all in a folder so they're all in one place!
Then start contacting you all and see if we can get you doing anything to help out from time to time.

Thanks for your understanding and support!
 
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