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Low Range Drifter
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I agree with busyfixin as well.


As for Abers comments.. I see some truths in it, but there are so many biblical passages that most ignore, but get caught up in others. And it's not for the government to get involved in most any of it.

I can't imagine being a party to abortion. I know a few friends that had them, or their girlfriends did. Most changed after in ways that were shocking. I saw one friend after 20 years, and it still weighs on him.

With that said, I still think its up to the parties involved. It makes me sad, but so do neglected kids and many other things in this world.

You bring up so many good points worth thinking about. I would like to draw attention to the moral issues you bring up. Homosexuality and the church.
You are correct in saying that no one sin is greater than the other in God's eyes. Murder of the unborn is a sin and life begins at conception. It begins to form a living human being and for a person to take that life is murder. God did say do not murder.
He also said that it is an abomination for a man to have relations with another as he would a woman.
The woman caught in adultery, Jesus said to her that he forgave her but then He said, "go and sin no more".
We, as in the church and others think that because so many think its acceptable that God should change to make us happy. But its not about us and our happiness. Its about what Christ did on the cross for us.
Reminds of the scripture, Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
He doesn't change and I'm glad for that. Because if He did change His mind about humanity, we'd all be finished.
As for the whole make pot legal thing. To many young kids are getting into it and messing up their heads. Young minds do not fully develop till their early 20"s and by smoking it, it stops the development of their minds and stunts their mental growth. I have heard the argument that God made it so it's ok, right? Well he also made poison ivy and we all know we shouldn't roll around in it.
Sin keeps us apart from God. Where sin is He is not. If we accept within our society, how is that a good thing? We can be apart from it and try and convince others that God has a better way. If they refuse do we leave them to their demise and move on?
Sometimes just planting seeds and moving on is the thing to do. Let God do the watering.

On a side note, the government and media talk so much about mass murder from madmen killing innocent people. Saw a meme the other day which pointed out that Planned Parenthood is by far the largest killer of innocent lives in this country compared to the senseless shootings we have. So many in this country have become desensitized to the value of human life. Since 1973 the practice of abortion in this country alone has taken 60 million innocent lives. Since when is it, It's my body and I can do with it as I please or It's not up to me to tell a woman what she can or can't do.
Those are cop out comments wanting to avoid the real issues. Live is precious and not our choice to take out that life.
So anti abortion is Pro life and pro choice is pro death.
I think that if people watched a procedure on how abortions are done there would be a large number turning away from this horrible practice.

Just my thoughts.

Great piece, busyfixin
 

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Mr. Special Snowflake.
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12,982 Posts
You bring up so many good points worth thinking about. I would like to draw attention to the moral issues you bring up. Homosexuality and the church.
You are correct in saying that no one sin is greater than the other in God's eyes. Murder of the unborn is a sin and life begins at conception. It begins to form a living human being and for a person to take that life is murder. God did say do not murder.
He also said that it is an abomination for a man to have relations with another as he would a woman.
The woman caught in adultery, Jesus said to her that he forgave her but then He said, "go and sin no more".
We, as in the church and others think that because so many think its acceptable that God should change to make us happy. But its not about us and our happiness. Its about what Christ did on the cross for us.
Reminds of the scripture, Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
He doesn't change and I'm glad for that. Because if He did change His mind about humanity, we'd all be finished.
As for the whole make pot legal thing. To many young kids are getting into it and messing up their heads. Young minds do not fully develop till their early 20"s and by smoking it, it stops the development of their minds and stunts their mental growth. I have heard the argument that God made it so it's ok, right? Well he also made poison ivy and we all know we shouldn't roll around in it.
Sin keeps us apart from God. Where sin is He is not. If we accept within our society, how is that a good thing? We can be apart from it and try and convince others that God has a better way. If they refuse do we leave them to their demise and move on?
Sometimes just planting seeds and moving on is the thing to do. Let God do the watering.

On a side note, the government and media talk so much about mass murder from madmen killing innocent people. Saw a meme the other day which pointed out that Planned Parenthood is by far the largest killer of innocent lives in this country compared to the senseless shootings we have. So many in this country have become desensitized to the value of human life. Since 1973 the practice of abortion in this country alone has taken 60 million innocent lives. Since when is it, It's my body and I can do with it as I please or It's not up to me to tell a woman what she can or can't do.
Those are cop out comments wanting to avoid the real issues. Live is precious and not our choice to take out that life.
So anti abortion is Pro life and pro choice is pro death.
I think that if people watched a procedure on how abortions are done there would be a large number turning away from this horrible practice.

Just my thoughts.

Great piece, busyfixin
I understand your point of view, and think it is perfectly logical given your beliefs. My beliefs are different, and so is my opinion.

I'm agnostic at best. I have a tough time believing that a small somewhat dysfunctional group of sheep herders got all the right answers while the rest of humanity got lead astray. So I don't see morals as some set of rules handed down from God on stone tablets, but rather a personal code of conduct individual to each and every one of us. Thus, I do not want laws and government policies to be based on morals, but rather rights. We all should have the right to do as we please, so long as it does not infringe on someone else's rights. Our laws should exist to define where one's rights end and another's begin. Our courts should exist to rules if the laws apply.

As to homosexuality, it means that consenting adults have the right to engage in any sexual activity they please as long as no one else has their rights infringed. With regards to gay marriage, (or any other non-traditional marriage), I think we need to ask why our government feels the need to treat people who are married any different than any other people, and adjust our laws accordingly.

As to abortion, is means that if there was universal agreement that life begins at conception then that unborn child should have the the same rights to life and any other human, and abortion should be treated that same as murder. But there's not universal agreement on that, so deciding what our laws should be is difficult. My personal feeling is that abortion is the wrong way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, but just making it illegal does not solve the problem. Rather, we need to improve our health care and other social services to that women that have unwanted pregnancies have other options.
 

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I understand your point of view, and think it is perfectly logical given your beliefs. My beliefs are different, and so is my opinion.

I'm agnostic at best. I have a tough time believing that a small somewhat dysfunctional group of sheep herders got all the right answers while the rest of humanity got lead astray. So I don't see morals as some set of rules handed down from God on stone tablets, but rather a personal code of conduct individual to each and every one of us. Thus, I do not want laws and government policies to be based on morals, but rather rights. We all should have the right to do as we please, so long as it does not infringe on someone else's rights. Our laws should exist to define where one's rights end and another's begin. Our courts should exist to rules if the laws apply.

Just a question about who the sheep herders were? If we look at humanity as a whole we see some real messed up people with very different standards for what morals are good to some and really bad to others so we need a standard to go by. If we could look at our Creator for those standards to follow then we have a starting point. The book of Leviticus is a book of law for the people of Israel to follow. We see some of those rules set aside as pretty messed up but if we really examine them it keeps people on a striahgt path so to speak. If there were no rules then peple would set their own standards and we see with society just how bad things can get. Some may think one way is great but others may see it as their rights being infringed upon.
About your sheep herder remark reminded me about how AC DC and Led Zepplin got it right, Highway to Hell and Stairway to Heaven. Wide is the gate to destruction, but narrow is the door to eternal life.

As to homosexuality, it means that consenting adults have the right to engage in any sexual activity they please as long as no one else has their rights infringed. With regards to gay marriage, (or any other non-traditional marriage), I think we need to ask why our government feels the need to treat people who are married any different than any other people, and adjust our laws accordingly.

We see here that the gay community is pushing their agenda on kids through the school system. This I have a problem with along with many parents.

As to abortion, is means that if there was universal agreement that life begins at conception then that unborn child should have the the same rights to life and any other human, and abortion should be treated that same as murder. But there's not universal agreement on that, so deciding what our laws should be is difficult. My personal feeling is that abortion is the wrong way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, but just making it illegal does not solve the problem. Rather, we need to improve our health care and other social services to that women that have unwanted pregnancies have other options.
According to science life does begin at conception and we see a heart beat within 6 weeks. We see and hear so much about how things are settled because science has proved it.
We know that a pregnancy is life and by terminating that life it is murder. If this is acceptable in society then why put people in jail for the same crime?
 

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Mr. Special Snowflake.
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Just a question about who the sheep herders were? If we look at humanity as a whole we see some real messed up people with very different standards for what morals are good to some and really bad to others so we need a standard to go by. If we could look at our Creator for those standards to follow then we have a starting point. The book of Leviticus is a book of law for the people of Israel to follow. We see some of those rules set aside as pretty messed up but if we really examine them it keeps people on a striahgt path so to speak. If there were no rules then peple would set their own standards and we see with society just how bad things can get. Some may think one way is great but others may see it as their rights being infringed upon.
About your sheep herder remark reminded me about how AC DC and Led Zepplin got it right, Highway to Hell and Stairway to Heaven. Wide is the gate to destruction, but narrow is the door to eternal life.
Actually, if you look at humanity as a whole you'll see that most societies developed some set of society rules, call them morals, which to live be. Most did it with no knowledge of the god described in The Bible. I understand that you believe that your god created everything, and so it make sense to you that we should follow his rules, but there are many societies that do not believe in your god and creation story, and yet still have very similar morals.

We see here that the gay community is pushing their agenda on kids through the school system. This I have a problem with along with many parents.
I'm not sure what "their agenda" is specifically, so I can't comment.

According to science life does begin at conception and we see a heart beat within 6 weeks. We see and hear so much about how things are settled because science has proved it.
We know that a pregnancy is life and by terminating that life it is murder. If this is acceptable in society then why put people in jail for the same crime?
I more or less agree with you, but the real problem is unwanted pregnancies.
Abortion is a potential solution to that problem, but not a good one since it is ending a life. I don't think forcing people to have and raise children they don't want is a good solution either. I think if we really want to cut down on abortion and if every life really means that much to us we need to make more options and support available to they people.
 

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circling the drain
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I'm not sure what "their agenda" is specifically, so I can't comment.
As the parent of school aged children I'm not sure what the hell he's talking about either. Neither of my kids have had this gay agenda pushed upon them. They've been through some Health/Sex - Ed classes, they've had some discussions surrounding what homosexuality is compared to heterosexuality, and they know the man stick makes the fishies and the girl spot makes the eggs and when you mix the fishies with the eggs you get a little guy.

I'll keep my eyes and ears out for this 'agenda' though so as soon as it's pushed on my kids I can protect them from the gay and let you guys know what the warning signs are so you don't get the gay either.
 

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Gustafson
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As the parent of school aged children I'm not sure what the hell he's talking about either. Neither of my kids have had this gay agenda pushed upon them. They've been through some Health/Sex - Ed classes, they've had some discussions surrounding what homosexuality is compared to heterosexuality, and they know the man stick makes the fishies and the girl spot makes the eggs and when you mix the fishies with the eggs you get a little guy.

I'll keep my eyes and ears out for this 'agenda' though so as soon as it's pushed on my kids I can protect them from the gay and let you guys know what the warning signs are so you don't get the gay either.
:sonicjay:
 

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I'll Direc your TV
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You bring up so many good points worth thinking about. I would like to draw attention to the moral issues you bring up. Homosexuality and the church.
You are correct in saying that no one sin is greater than the other in God's eyes. Murder of the unborn is a sin and life begins at conception. It begins to form a living human being and for a person to take that life is murder. God did say do not murder.
He also said that it is an abomination for a man to have relations with another as he would a woman.
The woman caught in adultery, Jesus said to her that he forgave her but then He said, "go and sin no more".
We, as in the church and others think that because so many think its acceptable that God should change to make us happy. But its not about us and our happiness. Its about what Christ did on the cross for us.
Reminds of the scripture, Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
He doesn't change and I'm glad for that. Because if He did change His mind about humanity, we'd all be finished.
As for the whole make pot legal thing. To many young kids are getting into it and messing up their heads. Young minds do not fully develop till their early 20"s and by smoking it, it stops the development of their minds and stunts their mental growth. I have heard the argument that God made it so it's ok, right? Well he also made poison ivy and we all know we shouldn't roll around in it.
Sin keeps us apart from God. Where sin is He is not. If we accept within our society, how is that a good thing? We can be apart from it and try and convince others that God has a better way. If they refuse do we leave them to their demise and move on?
Sometimes just planting seeds and moving on is the thing to do. Let God do the watering.

On a side note, the government and media talk so much about mass murder from madmen killing innocent people. Saw a meme the other day which pointed out that Planned Parenthood is by far the largest killer of innocent lives in this country compared to the senseless shootings we have. So many in this country have become desensitized to the value of human life. Since 1973 the practice of abortion in this country alone has taken 60 million innocent lives. Since when is it, It's my body and I can do with it as I please or It's not up to me to tell a woman what she can or can't do.
Those are cop out comments wanting to avoid the real issues. Live is precious and not our choice to take out that life.
So anti abortion is Pro life and pro choice is pro death.
I think that if people watched a procedure on how abortions are done there would be a large number turning away from this horrible practice.

Just my thoughts.

Great piece, busyfixin
Really, again.

On the pot, really? How does it mess with their minds and stop mental growth?.... or rather, how does it anymore than alcohol or tobacco. Actual proof, not just your normal "cause I say so"
 

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I'll Direc your TV
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I'm not sure what "their agenda" is specifically, so I can't comment.



I more or less agree with you, but the real problem is unwanted pregnancies.
Abortion is a potential solution to that problem, but not a good one since it is ending a life. I don't think forcing people to have and raise children they don't want is a good solution either. I think if we really want to cut down on abortion and if every life really means that much to us we need to make more options and support available to they people.
I truly think that anti-gay zealots like aber actually think every gay man wants to stick their pointy stick in his poop shoot. And it's always about a gay man, is a lesbian ok with them? They never talk about lesbian, and by their definition a lesbian can't be gay, because they don't sleep with men as they would a woman :sonicjay:

People like aber are the reason why support and help for unwanted (and wanted/planned) pregnancies is becoming extinct. To them, if you're pregnant, unless you want prenatal vitamins, you don't get any help at all. you don't need it. If they had a reasonable bone in their body, they would know that PP was 95% a provider of counseling, prenatal support, rape support, and medical assistance to women who were expecting. Literally like 5% of PP provided abortions, except the women had a process of counseling and mental health professionals to go through first before the procedure would even be scheduled.
 

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circling the drain
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Really, again.

On the pot, really? How does it mess with their minds and stop mental growth?.... or rather, how does it anymore than alcohol or tobacco. Actual proof, not just your normal "cause I say so"
So I'll at least give his comment this.....legal marijuana MAY make it easier for kids to get their hands on (I doubt it, since it's already easy to get your hands on) and just like tobacco and booze (as you pointed out) it shouldn't be in their hands.

But, I think the devils lettuce is no more harmful than booze/tobacco, in fact, I'd rank it less harmful than both in many cases. Again, Not something I feel strongly about keeping legal or illegal, it's just not that important in the grand scheme of things this country needs right now.
 

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I'll Direc your TV
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So I'll at least give his comment this.....legal marijuana MAY make it easier for kids to get their hands on (I doubt it, since it's already easy to get your hands on) and just like tobacco and booze (as you pointed out) it shouldn't be in their hands.

But, I think the devils lettuce is no more harmful than booze/tobacco, in fact, I'd rank it less harmful than both in many cases. Again, Not something I feel strongly about keeping legal or illegal, it's just not that important in the grand scheme of things this country needs right now.
I go back on forth on making it legal or keeping it illegal. Michigan is up to vote for recreation use this year (I believe).

I can see both sides, and I believe that taxing it will make the country money; except history shows that it'll just be squandered and end up in some politicians pocket. Just like the lottery. I also see the site of opening up a dangerous precedent for other drugs, but at the same time the crack "crack-down" only created a problem 10x as bad as the crack was thought to be. Maybe doing exactly what the states/country is doing now ist he way to go; take it slow, medical use, then recreation, each state make its own decision...etc.

I agree though, personally, there's bigger shit to worry about and spend money/time on than the wacky tabaccy
 

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circling the drain
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I go back on forth on making it legal or keeping it illegal. Michigan is up to vote for recreation use this year (I believe).

I can see both sides, and I believe that taxing it will make the country money; except history shows that it'll just be squandered and end up in some politicians pocket. Just like the lottery. I also see the site of opening up a dangerous precedent for other drugs, but at the same time the crack "crack-down" only created a problem 10x as bad as the crack was thought to be. Maybe doing exactly what the states/country is doing now ist he way to go; take it slow, medical use, then recreation, each state make its own decision...etc.

I agree though, personally, there's bigger shit to worry about and spend money/time on than the wacky tabaccy
Probably a debate for a different thread before getting too off track. But, I don't really see the pot sauce as that big of a deal for our government to still go after people for. I mean, I'm all for personal choice so let them inject heroin if they want.
 

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Gustafson
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Probably a debate for a different thread before getting too off track. But, I don't really see the pot sauce as that big of a deal for our government to still go after people for. I mean, I'm all for personal choice so let them inject heroin if they want.
The problem is those types of people (heroin) can become dangerous. I'm not ok with some coked out drug addict robing, stabbing, killing me to get his / her fix. Sometimes things are illegal for a reason.... Just my .02
 

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circling the drain
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The problem is those types of people (heroin) can become dangerous. I'm not ok with some coked out drug addict robing, stabbing, killing me to get his / her fix. Sometimes things are illegal for a reason.... Just my .02
With ya:thumb:

One part of me says, let them fuck themselves up. Then someone comes along and reminds me that they'll rob, steal, mug, etc from innocent people to get their fix.
 

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I'm not old, honest...
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Discussion Starter #74
Off topic and I don't have proof but I've talked to some business associates and they say that Colorado and specifically Denver is turning into pothead city with an upswing on crime and homeless type people.
 

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Gustafson
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With ya:thumb:

One part of me says, let them fuck themselves up. Then someone comes along and reminds me that they'll rob, steal, mug, etc from innocent people to get their fix.
Agreed... I say the same thing "you want to kill yourself, go ahead, I don't give a fawk" Then I'm remind myself of what I posted before and I have to change my mind. :teehee:
 

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circling the drain
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Off topic and I don't have proof but I've talked to some business associates and they say that Colorado and specifically Denver is turning into pothead city with an upswing on crime and homeless type people.
Hard to say. Haven't been there since it was legalized. Only place I've ever been where it was openly smoked was Vancouver, and that was only on one stretch of the "red district" or whatever they called it that seemed to have already a large population of "street kids" from all over the globe that just hung out and did homeless things.

Otherwise the rest of the city just seemed like every other big city to me.

I've got some friends out in CO, but none of mentioned much about the pot thing, most don't seem to care.

I'd be surprised myself if pot caused an upswing in crime. If I wanted pot I could go get some in the next 2-3 days and enjoy it on my back porch with out anyone giving a fuck, so I can't really see why it being legal would cause more crime or homeless. People who want to use pot recreationally already do. I don't know a single person who says "if pot was legal I'd smoke it" and aren't currently smoking it. The difference would be that instead of smoking it in the garage or in the bongshed they'd enjoy it sitting on their dock watching the sun set.

Show of hands, who here would start to smoke pot if it was legal?
 

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Gustafson
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Hard to say. Haven't been there since it was legalized. Only place I've ever been where it was openly smoked was Vancouver, and that was only on one stretch of the "red district" or whatever they called it that seemed to have already a large population of "street kids" from all over the globe that just hung out and did homeless things.

Otherwise the rest of the city just seemed like every other big city to me.

I've got some friends out in CO, but none of mentioned much about the pot thing, most don't seem to care.

I'd be surprised myself if pot caused an upswing in crime. If I wanted pot I could go get some in the next 2-3 days and enjoy it on my back porch with out anyone giving a fuck, so I can't really see why it being legal would cause more crime or homeless. People who want to use pot recreationally already do. I don't know a single person who says "if pot was legal I'd smoke it" and aren't currently smoking it. The difference would be that instead of smoking it in the garage or in the bongshed they'd enjoy it sitting on their dock watching the sun set.

Show of hands, who here would start to smoke pot if it was legal?
Not me.... What for? I don't do it now, so why would I start?
 

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81 inches of fun
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My only issue with pot is like cigarettes, I don't want to smell it or smell like it. Give them their edibles, but if you want to smoke it, do it on your own property.

I visited Vegas in January, and that was the only thing I could smell on the strip, and it's not a smell I enjoy. On the upside it was probably hiding the puke/booze/dirty hooker smells.
 

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circling the drain
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Hard to say. Haven't been there since it was legalized. Only place I've ever been where it was openly smoked was Vancouver, and that was only on one stretch of the "red district" or whatever they called it that seemed to have already a large population of "street kids" from all over the globe that just hung out and did homeless things.

Otherwise the rest of the city just seemed like every other big city to me.

I've got some friends out in CO, but none of mentioned much about the pot thing, most don't seem to care.

I'd be surprised myself if pot caused an upswing in crime. If I wanted pot I could go get some in the next 2-3 days and enjoy it on my back porch with out anyone giving a fuck, so I can't really see why it being legal would cause more crime or homeless. People who want to use pot recreationally already do. I don't know a single person who says "if pot was legal I'd smoke it" and aren't currently smoking it. The difference would be that instead of smoking it in the garage or in the bongshed they'd enjoy it sitting on their dock watching the sun set.

Show of hands, who here would start to smoke pot if it was legal?
Not me.... What for? I don't do it now, so why would I start?
Nope. Hands down for this guy.
Right, so I guess I’m curious how legalizing it caused more crime and homelessness in Denver?

*edit* sorry in my original post I meant to say that due to poeople already using it I can’t see an influx of people moving to co causing more crime/homeless.

Anyway I just don’t understand the potential correlation.
@jeepfreak81 shit does stink, I hate when my kids smell it and I have to explain it, though they’re now old enough they already know what it is and I don’t have to explain it anymore.
 
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