You had some good suggestions here;
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=121526&highlight=opinions+on+rocks

To save you looking, I'll repost a couple of my comments.

It sounds pretty darn good.:thumb: I'm anxious to see the tight and twisty area that you mentioned. I'd like to see you have a trail in the tight area & plop a couple rocks in here and there just to make it more interesting. Not really make it a rock crawl but make it different than just driving through the woods with tight turns. Keep it that way and make a bypass around ithe spots where people struggle.

Knarly rock crawls are great. You guys have started that really well and your plans will make it even better.:woot:

In addition, a rocky trail ride is cool. Let me throw this out; we wheel a lot in Canada. Part of the fun in Canada is running a trail that gives a variety of challenges all in one trail but you are able to keep moving. It's fun to have to wind around a tight tree, maybe get off camber a little & then have to work you way over/around a rock or log and sometimes both. Don't make it continuous rocks but make it so it has a variety and will make it more challenging than just driving through the woods.

A lot of the trails in Canada have mud with rocks in them. If you wanted to take a muddy area and dump some miscellaneous rocks and an occasional log to cross, it changes it from being a high speed, horsepower mud run to something that requires technical driving and a bit of horesepower to boot.:thumb: I look at that muddy section you took us on last week where robo got up against the tree. That's a perfect spot to dump a couple rocks in at the base of the hill.

Here's a perfect example. This is Tab's wife Kristi driving. It's a slight incline, full of mud, a few rocks and she has a tree to maneuver around. Take special note of the miscellaneous rocks behind her.



Here's another of me in a different spot. Off camber, slippery and a few rocks. Note, these are not "gate keeper" challenges but when you have a 1/4 mile long trail filled with this where you can keep moving, it's a good time.

[/

 

thanx for the info, ron and a few of us are working all week tryin to make new trails, and fix up a few existing trails for this next weekend. the owner is real set on not having realy tight trails, for hes insistant ppl dont want to scratch their rigs. may be a good suggestion this weekend, that we want tight, technical trails. keep the comments coming guys.

 

HE'S WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately I can't be there this weekend. My jeep's getting a couple mods & won't be ready. You need to get the owner to understand that there are people in this sport that want extremely tight trails. How can I help? Pics of typical stuff? Actually I don't know how many people have pics of tight stuff. Usually we're just driving it.

Here's Clarkstoncracker;



Here's another Canadian shot;



If you want to offer a wide variety of terrain to your customers, you need BOTH. Just like some want mud, others want hills and others want rocks.

 

Things look great in there, nice variety of trails. Jeff took me out on a few really tight ones, off camber, mud, rocks. I think you're building a good range of areas to play. I got a couple of pics...

Some new snow hides a lot, but this was a nice rough hill climb.

Good mud section here before a tight little hill with a log & door-buster of a tree beside you, I had to get the winch out to get over the log, nice challenge. ( I think my locker's out...)

Nice gravel pit area with lots of little off-camber routes.

Cool rock garden you guys got going here...

Can't wait to see what some of this looks like when it's summer!

 

Things look great in there, nice variety of trails. Jeff took me out on a few really tight ones, off camber, mud, rocks. I think you're building a good range of areas to play. I got a couple of pics...

If I understand the original poster's questions, he's not looking for pics of what is already there but rather opinions on what to do for improvements.

Eric, did I read you wrong?

 

all I can say is that most people dont have a clue as to what a capable vehicle and driver can put a vehicle through... make the obsticals harder than it "looks" like it can be and people will do it. dont make rocks stacked up so there is a "line" throught it... make the most challenge out of the items given for the changes...

and you guys might consider some gunnite and a "man made" area for the crazier people out there... if you did that you would have the best area in the state at that point...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=772605

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=770891

 

The gunnite is a great idea.
It would be interesting to see how durable the product is in a freeze/thaw enviroment.
It may be cost prohibitve to repair every spring.
I would like to see area's that challenge drivers skills as much as the rigs capabilities.

 

yes, but pics are ok. we just want to hear what you guys want, so we can give the owners some suggestions. hes kinda new to this offroad park idea. ron and i have a pretty good idea what we want, but its just getting jeff to build some gnarly, crazy stuff thats gonna be difficult. hes still under the asumption that ppl absolutely dont want to scratch or dent their rigs. we have alot of trails and stuff that arent that hard, but we want to build something like TT has, thats gonna be fun for something on 44s

 

Anything that points you at the sky is also good!

 

I have not been to the park yet but I am at my grandparents about 20 minutes from the park a lot in the summer, so I would like to come out some time.

But, from the pictures, it looks like there isn't much that would not eat my 2" lifted ZJ on 29" a/t's. Is there stuff there that I could play on without destroying my Jeep, or is this for bigger rigs?

 

there are alot of trails and runs your jeep will do just fine on. bring it and see.

 

more ideas....

 

I have plenty of scratches and dents from the park. and Loso's rig body shows even more. Not trying to dent anything but if your not careful it will happen. As for drivers challenges , That is a big focus on building. Somethings look tough, but with a good spotter and Balls you can do it. Big boy things to come as we build. Majority of the wheelers will be mid size rigs and I have them covered for trials. Stockers are taken care of as well. The big stuff is on the way. But I feel a bunch of well built multi- challenging trails will be best use of the land with multiple side trial obstacles of different skill levels will best fill your day at the park. I'm listening and taking notes and will do my best to give you the pucker factor your asking for.


Thanks for pics and the description to show a little of what is being asked for. They show we are dong what is asked. Sorry we dont have any rock faces in Lower Mi. but will try to make something just as fun
THANKS RP

 

I want obstacles (not mud) that when you drive by you would think theirs no way in hell a truck (of any caliber) could drive over that......:thumb:

 

come on ppl, we want your info. i know theres alot of ppl out there to put in their ideas.... if you say, it, we will build it. within reason that is.

 

Shotcrete. SHOTCRETE. SHOTCRETE!

There's my suggestion :d: (same idea as the gunnite 95geo is talking about) Then some time with an excavator can make some truly gnarly lines

 

And X100000000 the tight tight trails suggestion. That'll make people pucker trying to nav through to avoid major damage (for the pretty jeeps) and will give the crazy folk a hell of a lot more fun than wide open bullshit.

 

Also (and this is guessing since I haven't seen the park yet), put in butthole clenching off camber sections instead of just ALL straight hill climbs. The heightened possibility of roll will make them for more satisfying. Add in some rocks which threaten to keel you over to the down hill side :thumb:


Basically, make stuff that people think they can't do, or shouldn't do. Maybe they'll chicken out a few different trips to the park before finally trying. All the better. Make challenges that some people wont even try... Example: Hill climb where near the top the trail actually pivots around a tree, not only requiring a 3 point turn or front dig, but also lays the top/cage directly on or very near the tree before heading back downhill. Just get creative with the terrain available. Not everyone should be able to do everything. That's what keeps people coming back to a certain wheeling location, especially as they continue to build their rig to meet new challenges.

 

Ron and Eric,

I really like what you guys have done so far especially with the new hill climb section Ron showed us just prior to our departure saturday. After some rain and a few folks climbing these they should just get better.

Leave tree's you think you shouldn't, they can always be taken out later if they pose a problem. If you can keep the dozer on it's track then what Nuzzy said about off camber or side hilling with some rocks would be sweet!

And a suggestion for the camping area would be dust control (parking lot mostly) over the summer months. Sounds silly but it sucks sitting outside eating a dirt filled sandwhich as dust rolls over your picnic table.

So far you guys are doing everything right, keep it up.

People will also want a simple "you are here" type of map.

 

I told Ron to get the dozer out, angle the blade and make some of these:











It should be noted that we drove 5 rigs through these notches without pulling cable.

 

I told Ron to get the dozer out, angle the blade and make some of these:

Those are EXACLTY the kind of modifications that can be made to otherwise flat land to make it more enjoyable! Anything that gets the blood flowing, gets things off balance, and makes ya pucker a bit. Perfect for lessor built rigs too that want to really test their limits while having fun :thumb:

 

yep that looks like fun!! thats the cliffs right?

 

Yup. I broke my windshield even with it folded down.:whiz: The place is a blast. I would go back in a heartbeat.

 

how wide is your jeep jim? i got rained out today, and im goin to start a few new trails, and i need to know how narrow is too narrow?

 

bodies are around 60" wide and over all widths are 75-90"... most average being around 80"

if a trail has trees that are 80" wide it is TIGHT. anything under 100" should take some precise driving to get it through.

 

never too narrow..anything over 85 inch is too wide.

 

If my body is 60" wide & then I add another 6" each side for rock rails, that makes me 72" (6') at my body. Like Nuzzy, I have driven through that narrow of a trail. It's extremely challenging to come in at an angle, stuff one tire through and then work the other one through. The hard part is getting the back tires through. I wouldn't want the entire trail like that, especially if it is off camber because it could be close to impossible. Bryce's numbers of 80" would be a good ballpark where some spots are occasionally tighter. Erin's comment of 85" being too wide is true. Put it this way, I have run some quad trails and only once been denied being able to get through. If you make it too tight for some, so be it. Hairpin turns are good too. Especially if off camber. Those without a cage won't be able to run it. Again, so be it.

 

alright guys, im goin on my own this weekend and gonna make a few trails through the thickest woods on the property. ill go with around 70 to 80" trails. ill get a bamboo gate from the ski hill, cut it to length, and if i can fit it between trees, ill leave it. may not be too many large obstacles in this trail yet, but ill make it so your rubbin and drivin the whole time. ill try to get a few done before grand opening, and ill reroute them over any large stumps, logs, and theres a few nice off camber hills ill take them side hill also. may be able to get the kubota and drag a few large rocks in at inopurtune spots too. im trying guys, hang with me and ill try to give ya something to smile about.

 

rons got the new rock crawl just about done, and the parking lot is being seeded, to try and keep dust down, and keep it from being washed away with all this rain we've been getting. should be a little greenery for the grand opening. goin to cut a few more trails through the thick woods for the tight stuff, and the top of the gravel pit is getting alot of trenches dug, with sharp corners, and steep climbs. should be alot of fun for the opening weekend. we've been getting alot of ppl calling about coming and staying the whole weekend, so it sounds like were gonna be busy.

 

Well first off, you guys are doing great things up there. :thumb:


Tight and twisty trails can certainly maximize your space available and some of the trails we hit exemplified that. I saw plenty of three point turns :d:

But one idea that kept popping into my head was the off camber possibilities... Especially when we were over laying on all those hill climbs over by F. I couldn't help but think how some of those type areas could benefit from a trail that diagonaled or zig-zagged the hill giving the "tippy" feeling. Especially with all the those trees around so you had to drive carefully and work your way through.

Angles like these...

...where if you slide down or get out of position you have a tree to deal with. It makes careful control a must. It also gives another facet to deal with on a given obstacle --> the "lateral slide". You've got a lot of straight hill climbs which are great, and straight crawls which are great. But fighting the tendency of a vehicle to slide sideways is a whole other area you could look to when making new obstacles that would be a lot of fun! Especially when it gets rainy and slick!!


I really like how excited you guys are about making this place all it can be :beer: