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Yooper In Training
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Discussion Starter · #781 ·
How did you end up closing in the rear coilover mounts? Did you find a shift boot that worked?
I got some spare TJ shift boots, trimmed one, test fit it, and it looked like it'd work well, but I never followed through with installing them. It wasn't a priority when I was assembling the rig for our October dunes trip, and I haven't had the shocks off since. Turns out I should have put them on, because this is what the back looked like after playing in the heavy snow we got a while back:sonicjay:



And some updates since I'm here....overall I've been lazy as hell about working on this thing. I burnt myself on the final push to get it going, so this winter I've avoided it for the most part. I need to get some stuff finished up before the really nice weather hits, but it's running and driving well now.

New motor is in, runs like a top, and feels like it picked up a good 50-60hp


Got the fenders cleaned up and painted


Painted and installed inner fenders


One thing I've discovered that I don't like is that it's got a fair amount of wheel hop in 4WD in deep snow. Like when going slow or slowly taking off from a stop, when all 4 tires are slowly digging for traction and grab-slip-grab-slip the whole thing can get hopping. Spinning fast or hammering on it they're fine, but trying to finesse it it'll hop. I played with tire pressures and got it to do it a little less, but not go away entirely. I knew my suspension geometry was pretty good, but I ran the numbers and made some adjustments anyway. Here's where it's currently at:
Rear:

The UCAs have 3 mounting points at the frame. This at the highest hole/lowest anti-squat setting. It was at the middle hole to start with. The hop didn't seem to change much but I can definitely feel it squat more when accelerating on the street. The original setting was ~70% AS and the highest setting is ~90%. I don't see any geometry problems that should be contributing factors, and all the joints in the suspension(and everywhere else) are new. I don't recall having any hop issues when I was at the dunes with it.

Here's the front suspension.

I'm not quite as familiar with how the different variables will affect front end behavior, but again I don't see any obvious issues. This end is also adjustable via the frame end UCA, but I haven't messed with it yet.

Any thoughts on the suspension/hop are welcomed.

Next up: skid plates, rocker guards, corner guards, tailpipe, and paint a few body panels to match the rest. I've got what I need for all the armor, just need to get to work.
 

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Yooper In Training
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Discussion Starter · #782 ·
Finally got off my ass and built a skidplate


It does't protect the bellhousing or oilpan, but with where they're at I'm already in some deep shit if I'm hitting those!! I'm gonna throw a simple oil pan skid on I think, but it should be fine otherwise. Knowing me I'll probably get paranoid and add another bolt-on front section later.

Rear axle is headed to @bigbchevy today for some work. Gears have been whining since I got it going. The previous owner set them up and the backlash was decent so I just ran them. The whine is bad, the pinion has gotten very loose in the few hundred miles I've driven it, and the pattern looks very shallow. Hopefully Scott can save them, otherwise it looks like a new gear set is in order. Also ditching the welded diff in favor of a LockRight, then when it comes home I'm sandblasting and painting the axle, then she goes back together.
 

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Yooper In Training
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Discussion Starter · #784 ·
The more I drive it the more I love it too! I still need to color match the rest of the body. I was planning to just paint the remaining panels black to match the tub, but @BUTLER is pretty convincing about painting the whole thing....we'll see what I end up doing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #788 ·
Sean, what's going on with this thing? You ready for it to come live with me?
It's still kicking around. Not too much new, just been driving it a lot. I haven't had a chance to do much wheeling but I've put 2k miles or so on it. Body armor is done and painted, rear pinion bearings got wiped out, replaced, and gear setup improved. Had it at the dunes and Rock and Valleys and it did awesome. I still have hydro assist waiting to be installed.

Everything is for sale, so give me enough cash and it can absolutely come live with you:naughty: I've been trying to decide whether I'd rather have the Jeep or a muscle car anyway....
 

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I can levitate!
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9,241 Posts
One thing I've discovered that I don't like is that it's got a fair amount of wheel hop in 4WD in deep snow. Like when going slow or slowly taking off from a stop, when all 4 tires are slowly digging for traction and grab-slip-grab-slip the whole thing can get hopping. Spinning fast or hammering on it they're fine, but trying to finesse it it'll hop. I played with tire pressures and got it to do it a little less, but not go away entirely. I knew my suspension geometry was pretty good, but I ran the numbers and made some adjustments anyway. Here's where it's currently at:
Rear:

The UCAs have 3 mounting points at the frame. This at the highest hole/lowest anti-squat setting. It was at the middle hole to start with. The hop didn't seem to change much but I can definitely feel it squat more when accelerating on the street. The original setting was ~70% AS and the highest setting is ~90%. I don't see any geometry problems that should be contributing factors, and all the joints in the suspension(and everywhere else) are new. I don't recall having any hop issues when I was at the dunes with it.

Here's the front suspension.

I'm not quite as familiar with how the different variables will affect front end behavior, but again I don't see any obvious issues. This end is also adjustable via the frame end UCA, but I haven't messed with it yet.

Any thoughts on the suspension/hop are welcomed.

Next up: skid plates, rocker guards, corner guards, tailpipe, and paint a few body panels to match the rest. I've got what I need for all the armor, just need to get to work.
You could lower your lowers at the frame on both ends. That would be one way to help it. It wouldn't take much to make a noticeable difference. Getting all the links closer to parallel and closer to level with the earth will help reduce that "on throttle" bouncing. When you are on the gas, your rear suspension is trying to push up the rear frame and the front axle is trying to pull down. You just need to reduce those forces. My guess is that it isn't "bouncing" but pitching front to back like one of those springy horse rides at McDonalds. It looks to me like you have a lot of anti-dive up front and a little too much anti-squat in the rear. When you get them reduced enough to where you like the way it works offroad, you wont like the way it works on road. Thats just the way God created vehicle dynamics.
 

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Yooper In Training
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Discussion Starter · #790 ·
You could lower your lowers at the frame on both ends. That would be one way to help it. It wouldn't take much to make a noticeable difference. Getting all the links closer to parallel and closer to level with the earth will help reduce that "on throttle" bouncing. When you are on the gas, your rear suspension is trying to push up the rear frame and the front axle is trying to pull down. You just need to reduce those forces. My guess is that it isn't "bouncing" but pitching front to back like one of those springy horse rides at McDonalds. It looks to me like you have a lot of anti-dive up front and a little too much anti-squat in the rear. When you get them reduced enough to where you like the way it works offroad, you wont like the way it works on road. Thats just the way God created vehicle dynamics.
It actually wasn't suspension related at all. I played with the geometry in both directions and it didn't help or hurt the "hop", but hurt in other areas. The original geometry is spot on for what I want and performs fantastic on road and off, and is ridiculously stable in precarious situations offroad. I love it. Through other trial and error I discover that the "hop" is seems to be due to deflection/twist of the stock axle shafts. They'll load up and twist to a certain point, then break traction and "hop", then hook and load up again, and so on. The only time I've had an issue with this is when trying to crawl through deep snow in my yard. There hasn't been a real world on or offroad scenario that I've encountered where it occurred.


I know you know your stuff damn well with suspension, but I don't see how you claim I have high anti-squat and anti-dive. Both numbers are fairly low. If it were over 100% I'd agree, but as it sits now I don't think(based on research, experience, and this rig's performance) that it's too high at all.
 

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I can levitate!
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To be honest, I didn't even look at the numbers, I dont memorize anti squat or anti dive percentages for Jeep type of vehicles that I read online. It doesn't take much error in measurements to get some of these numbers you read online pretty far off and it can depend on the kinematic program bla bla bla. Just from looking at your link calculator pics, all of your links look like they are pointed up which makes it hard to reduce anti dive or anti squat. You were complaining about "hop" which more often than not is caused by too much anti squat in the rear. I was just giving you suggestions on how to reduce it via geometry. For what its worth, for a good off road suspension (rock crawling, steep technical climbs, etc), I believe the rear should have as little anti squat as you can stand (which would be very soft for DDing) and a small amount of anti dive up front. But again, there is a lot that could change your target numbers like spring rates, CG height, etc. But yes, twisting axle shafts can make it hop too. I am very surprised that this only happens in the snow and not other situations where there is a little more traction. Seems like snow would not have enough traction to twist the axle shafts....
 

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Yooper In Training
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Discussion Starter · #792 ·
To be honest, I didn't even look at the numbers, I dont memorize anti squat or anti dive percentages for Jeep type of vehicles that I read online. It doesn't take much error in measurements to get some of these numbers you read online pretty far off and it can depend on the kinematic program bla bla bla. Just from looking at your link calculator pics, all of your links look like they are pointed up which makes it hard to reduce anti dive or anti squat. You were complaining about "hop" which more often than not is caused by too much anti squat in the rear. I was just giving you suggestions on how to reduce it via geometry. For what its worth, for a good off road suspension (rock crawling, steep technical climbs, etc), I believe the rear should have as little anti squat as you can stand (which would be very soft for DDing) and a small amount of anti dive up front. But again, there is a lot that could change your target numbers like spring rates, CG height, etc. But yes, twisting axle shafts can make it hop too. I am very surprised that this only happens in the snow and not other situations where there is a little more traction. Seems like snow would not have enough traction to twist the axle shafts....
I agree with all of that. Based on the calculator, as fudged as it may be, my numbers are in a very good zone based on all my research. The performance backs it up. After changing it to drop the numbers more it was too soft. It also sits about 1" lower all around than when I took those measurements, so that's a bonus too. I'm slightly oversprung all around, which seems to help the road manners and overall handling quite a bit. The rear was VERY oversprung initially(200/225 springs) and I dropped it down a bunch (150/200 springs) and it helped a lot with all around ride with little to no loss to perceived handling stability. I only dropped the front rate a little, but the rear was about 20% lighter to the primary rate. Like anything else I'm sure it could benefit from some shock tuning, but it works very well as-is and I'm not inclined to make any changes at this point.

The thought never crossed my mind about axleshaft deflection until I had issues with the pinion bearings. The first thing I went to check was that the yoke was tight rather than the bearings damaged, and with the hubs locked via the e-brake, I was able to get way more rotation out of the pinion and carrier by hand than I ever would have expected. There's definite deflection in the shafts. When I had the rig in the rocks the MTRs worked awesome and hooked great, so I suspect it just twisted up the shafts and kept them twisted, where in the snow it was low enough traction that they were able to break traction, unload, then load back up and start the cycle over. Now that I think about it I've had it do that a little bit in deep sand and mud too, but very little and easily dealth with via throttle and/or speed.
 

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Yooper In Training
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Discussion Starter · #794 ·
I have some videos of my rig and a couple others it's amazing how much the 14 bolt shafts twist up.
And mine are stock 30 spline D60 shafts :sonicjay: I've got a bunch of spares but haven't needed any yet. If I keep the rig long term I plan to start slowly building a 14BFF for it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #795 ·
Well I haven't updated this in a long time and I just uploaded a bunch of pictures, so I might as well post them. The Jeep has been working great. It drives well, handles great, stable as hell off camber and climbing, crawls awesome, etc. The MTRs have worked much better than I expected both onroad and off. I put around 2500 street miles on it over the spring/summer/fall and I've had it out wheeling a few times at R&V, Bundy, and Silver Lake. Only real damage has been some bent steering parts(pitman arm, tie rod, TRE) from slamming into rocks, which was easily fixed, dented windshield frame(still fully functional), and torn 14 year old soft top. It needs some shock tuning because the coilovers are way overvalved from the factory, so I'll be doing that before spring. It rides a little stiff but not awful, works great crawling, but can't recover nearly fast enough for repeated hits at speed. I need to lighten up both compression and rebound valving....simple enough.

Random pics in no particular order....
Never trust an Asian spotter




Damn snow. It zigged when I told it to zag and got hung up on both axles


Works well for landscaping too. Not to friendly on the lawn though....



#fullwidthproblems


Little man showed up in May and has been awesome. Can't wait till he's old enough for Jeep rides!!

He already got his own Jeep for Christmas from our friends


Keeping it classy!


Rocker guard steps work great. They of course help getting in and out, but also keep the body off the trees and rocks. Repainting will happen often....


Previously mentioned bent steering. Also bent the .25" wall tie rod(fixed in bender), then on a separate trip bent and twisted the Waggy pitman arm....not sure how though.


Last year to fix the death wobble that was there from the very first test drive I put kingpin preload adjuster top plates on to eliminate the springs. It made a night and day difference, but I had to tighten them several times and eventually there was still slop. Took them apart and found this. The 1/8" washers definitely were not adequate so I made some new ones out of 1/4"


As would be expected with standard power steering, welded front diff, and 40s, the steering SUCKED in 4WD and any kind of rock or low speed technical driving. I finally got around to installing a cooler and hydro assist. I only have about 15 street miles and a day at R&V on it, but so far it works great. I also installed a CJ pitman arm I had sitting around to replace the bent Waggy arm. They looked about the same length, but I definitely lost some steering throw. The flatter arm matched my draglink to my panhard angle a bit better too. I'd like to find something a hair longer, but I can't go too long or it'll hit the tie rod at full bump. I may end up cutting up the Waggy arm and building my own.



Headed to Silver Lake in August


Mall crawling



Not Jeep related, but this took up the better part of my free time this fall. All done by hand with a palm sander....I tried quite a few methods and that was the quickest and most effective. Got more walls to do this year.....
 

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Yooper In Training
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Discussion Starter · #798 ·
Thanks! I love the end result but I'm not sure I ever wanna do it again:sonicjay:
 

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Discussion Starter · #800 ·
I'm okay with that:thumb:
 
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