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Old February 27th, 2019, 12:49 PM   #41
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The cost of implementing them is inifitiely cheaper than the cost of doing nothing. Don't even need to know the actual cost, because it doesn't matter.

The cost of doing nothing is we ruin this planet. As I said, it wont be in our lifetimes, nor our grandchildren's lifetimes. All this stuff is not a problem that just happens overnight, it just doesn't show up. it happens over generations, and the planet slowly looses this species of plant, this species of animal, then another, and another. The planet changes, but it's always changed with something else taking it's place that provides a different necessity.

Human's destroy and cover with concrete at a rate far beyond natural evolution and destruction. It's a discussion of would it happen if we didn't, yes it would. The difference is the rate that human's make it happen, that the resources and environment cannot compensate for.

Just as it wont be a major problem for generations, means that it doesn't need to be a solution tomorrow. Small changes now, then a little more, then a little more, one here, one there, everyone doing a small thing, is what makes a change for the better. To deny responsibility because you don't know a real number is just asinine to me, just like saying what the actual impact. It does not matter what the impact it, the fact that there is one at all is enough to effect changes for the better.
How exactly does a 2c temp increase and 7 feet of sea level rise ruin the planet?

People and life in general have gone through alot more.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 12:59 PM   #42
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I forsee myself leaving this state due to winter weather.

I picked my new truck up in St. Louis, its only like 6 hours south, but they get like no snow and they never salt! The guy made me sound like I was stupid when I asked to rust proof the underside of the truck
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Old February 27th, 2019, 01:24 PM   #43
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How exactly does a 2c temp increase and 7 feet of sea level rise ruin the planet?

People and life in general have gone through alot more.
2c temp increase is a huge amount. It's the same effect as a 2 degree body temp decrease.

That increase causes (and is currently causing) the ice caps to melt, and permafrost to melt. Permafrost melting causing landslides, which relsease metals and other materials into the oceans. That is raising the acidity of the worlds oceans which in turn affects the amount of available food along with causing landslides that raises the sea level, which displaces coastal populations of plants, animals, and people.

Shifting oceanic levels, and tides affect the rainfall patterns that create the use of hydro-power, which may not be huge, but it lowers to availability of renewable energy sources. The global increase in heat will lead to an increase of illness caused by insets and bugs (such as Lyme disease), beacsue of the warmer temps, and making life even more difficult for longer periods of what used to be normal drought, and strained food sources.

That is with 2 degrees of global temperature increase. Right now, we are at 1.5 degrees Celsius of global temperature increase since the pre-industrial time. There already are the effects of global temperature increase, and will continue to get worse as the temperature rises.

As I said. it's not that changes are occurring; the earth warms and cools naturally. what changes is the rate at which it is happening; humans are changing the balance of change and causing too much significant change in too short of time.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 01:26 PM   #44
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I forsee myself leaving this state due to winter weather.

I picked my new truck up in St. Louis, its only like 6 hours south, but they get like no snow and they never salt! The guy made me sound like I was stupid when I asked to rust proof the underside of the truck
It looks like 7 hours from you, 8 hours from Detroit.

Either way, you drive 7-8+ hours south (or some variance of) of here and you'll find that a lot of places.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 01:28 PM   #45
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It looks like 7 hours from you, 8 hours from Detroit.

Either way, you drive 7-8+ hours south (or some variance of) of here and you'll find that a lot of places.
My wife and I went to Florida end of January, and I could not beleive the difference in vehicles. You hear about it, but to see the different no salt makes. Just wow lol

hear to places like arizona is even better cause of the lower salt in the air.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 01:35 PM   #46
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My wife and I went to Florida end of January, and I could not beleive the difference in vehicles. You hear about it, but to see the different no salt makes. Just wow lol

hear to places like arizona is even better cause of the lower salt in the air.
Yes, huge difference. Ocean salt in the air will still cause rust, but nothing like here, and it takes a much longer time. Even a vehicle from up your way lasts longer than ones down here because they use sand (and less salt?) instead of TONS of salt like SE Michigan.

If you're looking for something old and in good shape, dry heat like Arizona is the place to buy.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 01:46 PM   #47
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Yes, huge difference. Ocean salt in the air will still cause rust, but nothing like here, and it takes a much longer time. Even a vehicle from up your way lasts longer than ones down here because they use sand (and less salt?) instead of TONS of salt like SE Michigan.

If you're looking for something old and in good shape, dry heat like Arizona is the place to buy.
We are getting off topic but I will say wrong. We had a friend retire onto an outer island along the Florida panhandle. It took about 5 years to rust out his motorhome frame. We spent about 6 days on the outer banks parked 500 ft from the ocean. My entire motorhome and tag were covered with a fine layer of salt. It got on everything.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 02:20 PM   #48
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2c temp increase is a huge amount. It's the same effect as a 2 degree body temp decrease.

That increase causes (and is currently causing) the ice caps to melt, and permafrost to melt. Permafrost melting causing landslides, which relsease metals and other materials into the oceans. That is raising the acidity of the worlds oceans which in turn affects the amount of available food along with causing landslides that raises the sea level, which displaces coastal populations of plants, animals, and people.

Shifting oceanic levels, and tides affect the rainfall patterns that create the use of hydro-power, which may not be huge, but it lowers to availability of renewable energy sources. The global increase in heat will lead to an increase of illness caused by insets and bugs (such as Lyme disease), beacsue of the warmer temps, and making life even more difficult for longer periods of what used to be normal drought, and strained food sources.

That is with 2 degrees of global temperature increase. Right now, we are at 1.5 degrees Celsius of global temperature increase since the pre-industrial time. There already are the effects of global temperature increase, and will continue to get worse as the temperature rises.

As I said. it's not that changes are occurring; the earth warms and cools naturally. what changes is the rate at which it is happening; humans are changing the balance of change and causing too much significant change in too short of time.

I understand all these things, I don't understand how this equals an unlivable planet. I'm willing to bet most people easily adapt to whatever the new norm is. Even if Miami is gone.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 02:34 PM   #49
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But why accept that as the new normal when things can be done to possibly stop or reverse or even slow things down, sure we wonít see it but our future generations will.


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Old February 27th, 2019, 02:37 PM   #50
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But why accept that as the new normal when things can be done to possibly stop or reverse or even slow things down, sure we won’t see it but our future generations will.


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Because no one would miss Miami?

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Old February 27th, 2019, 02:39 PM   #51
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But why accept that as the new normal when things can be done to possibly stop or reverse or even slow things down, sure we wonít see it but our future generations will.


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Like what? Bombing China's coal facilities?
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Old February 27th, 2019, 02:49 PM   #52
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Like what? Bombing China's coal facilities?


I donít know where ya came up with that hair brain plan but maybe China needs better scrubbers on their coal power plants like we use here in the USA. And get them to cut back on emissions. A lot of our coal power plants are switching to natural gas because of the cleaner emissions, yeah itís a small step but it makes a difference

Look how bad pollution was back in the 70ís and 80ís. The smog was horrible, today most cities are pretty clean, the Beijing olympics was horribly plagued with smog and people wore mask to cut down on breathing in it, IF we could get the Chinese on board in 20-30 years the smog could be a lot better.

Donít understand your mindset of screw it itís gonna happen so letís not do anything


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Old February 27th, 2019, 03:00 PM   #53
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I donít know where ya came up with that hair brain plan but maybe China needs better scrubbers on their coal power plants like we use here in the USA. And get them to cut back on emissions. A lot of our coal power plants are switching to natural gas because of the cleaner emissions, yeah itís a small step but it makes a difference

Look how bad pollution was back in the 70ís and 80ís. The smog was horrible, today most cities are pretty clean, the Beijing olympics was horribly plagued with smog and people wore mask to cut down on breathing in it, IF we could get the Chinese on board in 20-30 years the smog could be a lot better.

Donít understand your mindset of screw it itís gonna happen so letís not do anything


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My mindset is not screw it it's gonna happen so lets not do anything.

My mindset is, climate, and the earth, coastlines, continents, all change regardless if people are here or not. It'll all be here after we're gone.

My mindset is, what do you legitimately think you are going to do to stop the climate from changing? how are you going to completely Geoengineer thing's to keep the temperature, jet stream, gulf stream, and all the coastlines where they are now? How long do we do that for? Should we start worrying about plate tectonics too?

And how do you intend to force China, India, or all of Africa to forgo cheap and easy power from coal?

My mindset is, you're not going to change, stop, or alter a thing. And life will go on just fine. So go ahead, kill all the cows, ground all the planes, make laws to keep thermostats set to 55 or some arbitrary number to "save the world", but you're not making a difference.

People looking into ways to pull carbon out of the atmosphere have a far higher chance of success than tree huggers trying to tell everyone how to live because they "did their research".

Now I'm going to go get in my big block power, 4.10 geared, oversized truck and increase my carbon footprint on home.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 03:15 PM   #54
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My mindset is not screw it it's gonna happen so lets not do anything.

My mindset is, climate, and the earth, coastlines, continents, all change regardless if people are here or not. It'll all be here after we're gone.

My mindset is, what do you legitimately think you are going to do to stop the climate from changing? how are you going to completely Geoengineer thing's to keep the temperature, jet stream, gulf stream, and all the coastlines where they are now? How long do we do that for? Should we start worrying about plate tectonics too?

And how do you intend to force China, India, or all of Africa to forgo cheap and easy power from coal?

My mindset is, you're not going to change, stop, or alter a thing. And life will go on just fine. So go ahead, kill all the cows, ground all the planes, make laws to keep thermostats set to 55 or some arbitrary number to "save the world", but you're not making a difference.

People looking into ways to pull carbon out of the atmosphere have a far higher chance of success than tree huggers trying to tell everyone how to live because they "did their research".

Now I'm going to go get in my big block power, 4.10 geared, oversized truck and increase my carbon footprint on home.
Jesus, you're just completely ignoring what everybody is saying to make your own non-point. No one here is trying to stop natural climate change or work any miracles to stop the planet from doing what it's going to do. We're talking about logical, reasonable approaches to lessen our ever-increasing impact on the planet. You don't want to do a damn thing about the problem because someone else might not be? Ridiculous, irresponsible, ignorant, and downright lazy. Just because someone else drinks bottled water by the case and chucks the empties out the car window means it's fine for you to do, right? Or you could be responsible and do your part to clean up after yourself and be at least a little bit responsible. Then encourage someone else to do the same. Then maybe they'll do the same and it'll magically snowball into more people giving a sh1t. It's not hard if you take off the blinders to what people are actually saying.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 03:42 PM   #55
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So what about the millions of acres of forest that are destroyed to build our buildings? There less plants and more CO2 production there ever has been. I don't agree that the world is going to end in 20 years, but if we as a species keep destroying the forsest as we do, and keep paving over flora and fauna, it will destroy of habitat in a couple generations.

That is not conjecture, that is simple numbers. When I see someone say "it's a hoax" to me that means they're not going to do anything to even to to lower the amount of pollution in our world. Which is just sad, really.
With all of our harvesting of trees to supply the demand for lumber to make homes, baseball bats, fence posts etc. there is also a large reforestation programs in place to plant more than what is taken.

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Old February 27th, 2019, 04:09 PM   #56
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Here's a scary point. We have been working on a project for China in the steel industry. The Chinese steel industry dumps pickling acid in the rivers. Over 90% of China's water supply is not even suitable for non-potable water. Think about that.......... NON potable water.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 04:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by wave_crusher View Post
2c temp increase is a huge amount. It's the same effect as a 2 degree body temp decrease.

That increase causes (and is currently causing) the ice caps to melt, and permafrost to melt. Permafrost melting causing landslides, which relsease metals and other materials into the oceans. That is raising the acidity of the worlds oceans which in turn affects the amount of available food along with causing landslides that raises the sea level, which displaces coastal populations of plants, animals, and people.

Shifting oceanic levels, and tides affect the rainfall patterns that create the use of hydro-power, which may not be huge, but it lowers to availability of renewable energy sources. The global increase in heat will lead to an increase of illness caused by insets and bugs (such as Lyme disease), beacsue of the warmer temps, and making life even more difficult for longer periods of what used to be normal drought, and strained food sources.

That is with 2 degrees of global temperature increase. Right now, we are at 1.5 degrees Celsius of global temperature increase since the pre-industrial time. There already are the effects of global temperature increase, and will continue to get worse as the temperature rises.

As I said. it's not that changes are occurring; the earth warms and cools naturally. what changes is the rate at which it is happening; humans are changing the balance of change and causing too much significant change in too short of time.
You must have compared notes with Al Gore. He predicted the same in global cooling mini ice age which never happened.
I remember the 70"s when that was the big scare. We had plenty of snow and colder than normal winters.
The 80's and 90's there was acid rain and global warming.
Now in order to cover all the bases they call it climate change.
Volcano's cause more damage than man can do.
The United States has cleaned up on the pollution from manufacturing plants and such but in the same other countries such as China, India and other countries picking up the pace to manufacture and which there are almost zero controls having to do with pollution.
There was ice age when we were the big polluters and now that other countries are the big polluters we have climate change.
I don't by into the whole climate change global warming craze.
We are moving into a cooling trend. In the past 2 years NASA reported that temps have dropped by .56 c.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 04:17 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jrgunn5150 View Post
My mindset is not screw it it's gonna happen so lets not do anything.

My mindset is, climate, and the earth, coastlines, continents, all change regardless if people are here or not. It'll all be here after we're gone.

My mindset is, what do you legitimately think you are going to do to stop the climate from changing? how are you going to completely Geoengineer thing's to keep the temperature, jet stream, gulf stream, and all the coastlines where they are now? How long do we do that for? Should we start worrying about plate tectonics too?

And how do you intend to force China, India, or all of Africa to forgo cheap and easy power from coal?

My mindset is, you're not going to change, stop, or alter a thing. And life will go on just fine. So go ahead, kill all the cows, ground all the planes, make laws to keep thermostats set to 55 or some arbitrary number to "save the world", but you're not making a difference.

People looking into ways to pull carbon out of the atmosphere have a far higher chance of success than tree huggers trying to tell everyone how to live because they "did their research".

Now I'm going to go get in my big block power, 4.10 geared, oversized truck and increase my carbon footprint on home.
This^^^^^^

We are not in control of the weather or the earth. Do we do our part to care for the place we live? Yes
We are not in control at all. The sun will rise and set, the wind will blow, it will rain and it will snow.
Be sure to burn some rubber with that truck.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 04:34 PM   #59
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I understand all these things, I don't understand how this equals an unlivable planet. I'm willing to bet most people easily adapt to whatever the new norm is. Even if Miami is gone.
It won't be unlivable, it just won't support as many humans. As heavily populated coastal areas become submerged, people will have to migrate inland, meaning less land for agriculture. Also, as climates change, crops will fail where they have traditionally grow. Eventually people will find new crops that can handle the new climate, or new growing areas where the old crops can grow, but that will take time. Since people tend to eat every day, there will likely be wide spread famine and starvation. I've heard suggestions that the die off rate may be as high as 90%.

Eventually a new equilibrium a new equilibrium with a whole lot less people and life will go on until the sun runs out a fuel and the sun expands and burns us all to a crisp. Nothing lasts forever.
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Old February 27th, 2019, 04:42 PM   #60
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Jesus, you're just completely ignoring what everybody is saying to make your own non-point. No one here is trying to stop natural climate change or work any miracles to stop the planet from doing what it's going to do. We're talking about logical, reasonable approaches to lessen our ever-increasing impact on the planet. You don't want to do a damn thing about the problem because someone else might not be? Ridiculous, irresponsible, ignorant, and downright lazy. Just because someone else drinks bottled water by the case and chucks the empties out the car window means it's fine for you to do, right? Or you could be responsible and do your part to clean up after yourself and be at least a little bit responsible. Then encourage someone else to do the same. Then maybe they'll do the same and it'll magically snowball into more people giving a sh1t. It's not hard if you take off the blinders to what people are actually saying.
Again... I'll ask... What do you think you're going to do?
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