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Old January 31st, 2020, 05:42 PM   #4601
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So back to Trump...

I think Republicans just did the Democrats a huge favor by refusing to see more evidence and witnesses. This adds validity to their claim that it wasn't a fair trial. Now, the can spend from now until November releasing evidence to the "leftist" media unhindered by the restraints of the Senate where were in control. I think it would have been better for the to let the have their trial, because we all know that they were not going to find Trump guilty regardless of the evidence.
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Old January 31st, 2020, 06:19 PM   #4602
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I think it’s a moot point.
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Old January 31st, 2020, 07:10 PM   #4603
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I think it’s a moot point.
Well have to wait until November to know.
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Old February 1st, 2020, 10:53 AM   #4604
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So back to Trump...

I think Republicans just did the Democrats a huge favor by refusing to see more evidence and witnesses. This adds validity to their claim that it wasn't a fair trial. Now, the can spend from now until November releasing evidence to the "leftist" media unhindered by the restraints of the Senate where were in control. I think it would have been better for the to let the have their trial, because we all know that they were not going to find Trump guilty regardless of the evidence.
Schiff lied about Russia.
Schiff lied about Ukraine.
Schiff failed to prove a case (any case) for impeaching and removing Trump.
The first 73 days so tainted the case everything would have to be tossed and start over. i.e. “fruits of the poisoned tree”. Yet with all that, they still had nothing.

How would you like to be on trial for your life, and your counsel is not allowed to participate in proceedings or discovery for over two months?

Democrats tried to railroad him. It was suppose to be okay because “it’s Trump!”
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Old February 1st, 2020, 08:44 PM   #4605
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Schiff lied about Russia.
Schiff lied about Ukraine.
Schiff failed to prove a case (any case) for impeaching and removing Trump.
The first 73 days so tainted the case everything would have to be tossed and start over. i.e. “fruits of the poisoned tree”. Yet with all that, they still had nothing.

How would you like to be on trial for your life, and your counsel is not allowed to participate in proceedings or discovery for over two months?

Democrats tried to railroad him. It was suppose to be okay because “it’s Trump!”
The House serves as a Grand Jury. They are usually done behind closed doors, and the accused is not present or involved, nor is his defence present. That's how it works.

It's at the senate trial that evidence is to be presented and guilt or innocence decided, but that didn't happen because most of the Republicans had already made up their minds anyways and didn't want any evidence made public.
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Old February 2nd, 2020, 07:04 AM   #4606
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The House serves as a Grand Jury. They are usually done behind closed doors, and the accused is not present or involved, nor is his defence present. That's how it works.

It's at the senate trial that evidence is to be presented and guilt or innocence decided, but that didn't happen because most of the Republicans had already made up their minds anyways and didn't want any evidence made public.
No that's not how it works. The dems had 17 witnesses and the had none. They had witnesses but Schiff refused to hear from them. Only after 71 days did the dems allow to participate.
You see if you had all the info then you would have come to a different conclusion. But you refuse to look at all the evidence. You have your media that you follow and believe. The have evidence to present but you will not look at it.
Just imagine only the prosecutor being able to present evidence that you committed a crime and your defense team could only watch from a distance and not be allowed to present a case to prove your innocence. That would be an unfair trial. If it were happening to you it would an outrage but since its a conservative president that you seem to really dislike its ok.
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Old February 2nd, 2020, 09:39 AM   #4607
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What I find interesting is so many people are willing to sidestep Trumps rights for the sole reason the he is Trump.
It was somehow okay to wiretap and spy on Trump by the last administration, because he is Trump. I remember Trump being mocked because he suggested it, but it’s true. Could you imagine if Bush had done that to Obama?

Two points, interrogatives or whatever:
1) The official vote is Wednesday, how many revelations or discovery of previously unconsidered evidence against Trump will come out till then?
2) We know wiretapped Trump while using all the alphabet agencies to pursue every dirty trick they could think of including enlisting aid from foreign governments to pull off this coup. What else have they done that has not been uncovered?
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Old February 2nd, 2020, 01:26 PM   #4608
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No that's not how it works. The dems had 17 witnesses and the had none. They had witnesses but Schiff refused to hear from them. Only after 71 days did the dems allow to participate.
You see if you had all the info then you would have come to a different conclusion. But you refuse to look at all the evidence. You have your media that you follow and believe. The have evidence to present but you will not look at it.
Just imagine only the prosecutor being able to present evidence that you committed a crime and your defense team could only watch from a distance and not be allowed to present a case to prove your innocence. That would be an unfair trial. If it were happening to you it would an outrage but since its a conservative president that you seem to really dislike its ok.
There you go right back to attacks on my character. Let me know if you have anything new to say.
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Old February 2nd, 2020, 01:33 PM   #4609
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Originally Posted by XXXJ View Post
What I find interesting is so many people are willing to sidestep Trumps rights for the sole reason the he is Trump.
It was somehow okay to wiretap and spy on Trump by the last administration, because he is Trump. I remember Trump being mocked because he suggested it, but it’s true. Could you imagine if Bush had done that to Obama?

Two points, interrogatives or whatever:
1) The official vote is Wednesday, how many revelations or discovery of previously unconsidered evidence against Trump will come out till then?
2) We know wiretapped Trump while using all the alphabet agencies to pursue every dirty trick they could think of including enlisting aid from foreign governments to pull off this coup. What else have they done that has not been uncovered?
1) none, because the voted to not allow any
2)Trump is now in charge of those "alphabet agencies". If there is corruption there what is Trump doing about it? Maybe he should be more concerned about what his agencies are doing and not what Ukraine's are doing.
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Old February 2nd, 2020, 02:27 PM   #4610
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Nothing to hide, nothing to see here, move along.

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-adminis...205608561.html
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Old February 2nd, 2020, 03:20 PM   #4611
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
There you go right back to attacks on my character. Let me know if you have anything new to say.
I have to agree with you. Aber continues to attack you in a manner that is uncalled for.

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Nothing to hide, nothing to see here, move along.

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-adminis...205608561.html
Since there is no known context to the emails, it is a moot point. Regardless of what Trump may or may not have done, the dems did a poor job of proving their case. I would be much more sympathetic if they had allowed the Reps to produce witness's and cross examine the witness's that the dems produced. But being snotty and selfish, they set the stage for the Reps to do the same thing once it reached the senate. It's a classic case of be careful of the precedent you set, as it may backfire on you. (kinda like the nuclear deal a couple years back)
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Old February 2nd, 2020, 08:25 PM   #4612
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Since there is no known context to the emails, it is a moot point. Regardless of what Trump may or may not have done, the dems did a poor job of proving their case. I would be much more sympathetic if they had allowed the Reps to produce witness's and cross examine the witness's that the dems produced. But being snotty and selfish, they set the stage for the Reps to do the same thing once it reached the senate. It's a classic case of be careful of the precedent you set, as it may backfire on you. (kinda like the nuclear deal a couple years back)
I'm not sure what you'd for as far as context. Pretty much any e-mail is going to have the exact date and time it was sent, who wrote it, who it was send to, and often a subject line. Often there's a whole chain of emails included to give plenty of context. Trump and many of his supporters sure thought Hillary's emails were awful important.

And it was my understanding that this is how impeachment hearings were supposed to work. Impeach means to accuse. The purpose of the house impeachment hearing is to decide if there is enough evidence to accuse the president with wrongdoing. Then the senate is where the full trial is held to determine guilt or innocence. Not that it matters. There's not enough Republicans with the courage to go against Trump to convict.
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Old February 3rd, 2020, 05:38 AM   #4613
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I'm not sure what you'd for as far as context. Pretty much any e-mail is going to have the exact date and time it was sent, who wrote it, who it was send to, and often a subject line. Often there's a whole chain of emails included to give plenty of context. Trump and many of his supporters sure thought Hillary's emails were awful important.

And it was my understanding that this is how impeachment hearings were supposed to work. Impeach means to accuse. The purpose of the house impeachment hearing is to decide if there is enough evidence to accuse the president with wrongdoing. Then the senate is where the full trial is held to determine guilt or innocence. Not that it matters. There's not enough Republicans with the courage to go against Trump to convict.
It's been my understanding that the house is supposed to gather the evidence and the senate is supposed to decided on the evidence presented.

I listened to some professor talking in detail about how the house has the ability to dedicate committees to do research and while this is going on, they can still conduct business. The senate ties up every senator which basically brings them to a standstill. Therefore, the leg work is supposed to happen in the house. And this comes full circle to Schiff not allowing any repub witness or cross examination. It became one sided, which regardless of which side of the aisle you are on - is not fair.
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Old February 3rd, 2020, 12:42 PM   #4614
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It's been my understanding that the house is supposed to gather the evidence and the senate is supposed to decided on the evidence presented.

I listened to some professor talking in detail about how the house has the ability to dedicate committees to do research and while this is going on, they can still conduct business. The senate ties up every senator which basically brings them to a standstill. Therefore, the leg work is supposed to happen in the house. And this comes full circle to Schiff not allowing any repub witness or cross examination. It became one sided, which regardless of which side of the aisle you are on - is not fair.

I can see the logic in that but does not match what I've read in the US constitution or in the Jefferson manual of parliamentary practice. What I see there is that the only thing the house sends to the Senate is the articles of impeachment, and it is in the Senate where the trial is to take place with the house managers serving as the prosecution and the president providing his own counsel for defense and the senators serving as an impartial jury.

Note to Aber, this is my own opinion based upon my understanding of what is in the two above mentioned documents, and not something I heard from any media outlets
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Old February 3rd, 2020, 03:22 PM   #4615
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I can see the logic in that but does not match what I've read in the US constitution or in the Jefferson manual of parliamentary practice. What I see there is that the only thing the house sends to the Senate is the articles of impeachment, and it is in the Senate where the trial is to take place with the house managers serving as the prosecution and the president providing his own counsel for defense and the senators serving as an impartial jury.

Note to Aber, this is my own opinion based upon my understanding of what is in the two above mentioned documents, and not something I heard from any media outlets
As for your earlier comment about me attacking your character. Its not you, its how you see things along with most liberals. And I cant explain it. Conservatives see things politically different than liberals. Even when we have the same constitution it is taken differently by the two parties and the people who hold to those parties.

You have your opinion and you are entitled to it just like everyone else is. I am not a scholar on the constitution but we have many who are and I would take their knowledge of it before I rely on my own understanding of it.
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Old February 4th, 2020, 07:35 AM   #4616
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What happened in Iowa?
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Old February 4th, 2020, 08:04 AM   #4617
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What happened in Iowa?
The results did not provide the desired outcome.
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Old February 4th, 2020, 09:26 AM   #4618
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Everyone got a participation trophy.
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Old February 4th, 2020, 11:38 AM   #4619
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The results did not provide the desired outcome.

They really wanted Biden to win. He didn't so they decided to slow things down and maybe wait for him to catch up or someone else will beat Bernie in the count.
They are trying to take away the nomination from Bernie same as 2016.

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Everyone got a participation trophy.
I saw that, they all claimed to be the winner
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Old February 4th, 2020, 10:45 PM   #4620
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As for your earlier comment about me attacking your character. Its not you, its how you see things along with most liberals. And I cant explain it. Conservatives see things politically different than liberals. Even when we have the same constitution it is taken differently by the two parties and the people who hold to those parties.

You have your opinion and you are entitled to it just like everyone else is. I am not a scholar on the constitution but we have many who are and I would take their knowledge of it before I rely on my own understanding of it.
So finally we get to the root of the problem, and you admit what many of us have suspected, you don't actually think for yourself. When faced with something you don't understand you seek out someone that you think is smarter than you to explain it, and since you tend towards the conservative viewpoints, this is what you believe is right. This is why you assume that I, who you have labeled a liberal, looks for liberal viewpoints. But I don't. When I'm faced with something I don't understand, I seek information, not opinions. When the topic here turned towards the proper process for impeachment, I went to the source, the US Constitution. When I didn't find the answer there, I dug further, and found the rules for Congress, which didn't seem to have anything about impeachment. From there I dug deeper, and found the Jefferson manual of parliamentary practice, written by Thomas Jefferson to try to define how the Senate of our then young nation should operate. There I found mostly case studies from English Law of how they did things. It is from what I read there that I formed my opinion. So the opinion I presented is not a liberal viewpoint nor a conservative viewpoint, it is my viewpoint.

I don't mean this as a slam on you but you might see it as one. I think that the idea that laws and the working of government is something beyond the understanding of the common man to be a dangerous one. I believe that that is an idea that our founding fathers rejected and fought against. Laws were to be written in plain straightforward language that anyone can understand, and that don't, and shouldn't need scholars and the elite to tell us what it means.
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