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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:05 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee
Who says it doesn't have a set path? Are you saying that it doesn't have a set path because we don't know what the path is? (because man can't predict it?)

Please clarify this for me.

Thanks!

Actually, I wasn't trying to discount God in this aspect, but question the idea of everything being Fated to happen. If we were truly given Free Will, wouldn't it be sort of asinine to say "You've got Free Will! As long as it fits into this set path"?

Therefore, I'm saying Fate can't necessarily exist, whether you believe in God or not, because if you don't.... the physical world as we know it right now isn't on a set path, therefore it could be concluded that we can't be. And if you DO believe in God, you've got free will to do as you wish. You choose to follow God. Or you don't. It's a choice. You can say "he has a plan for us" but having a plan and enacting it are two different things... it's our choice if we want to follow it, in other words. He just gets to try to nudge us in a better direction. (Some can be more stubborn than others when nudged, basically.)

So really, fate can't exist in the "here's a set path" sort of sense. If we don't know the plan, how do we know how to follow it? So we're bound to make choices against it now and again, changing it. (or putting it off track at least)

Then again, I suppose it's not the journey, it's the final conclusion that could be called our fate. Some just take harder roads than others. Some don't even reach the destination... which I suppose could be paralleled to Heaven and Hell, but even then... that means during our lives we have a choice on how we end up in the end.

Otherwise, I think the hand of God would've smacked me upside the head one too many times already. :p
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:07 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
still waiting on a response.

I need to know what to do, the 6 years are up in about 34 minutes.
Cracker:

You might have missed this:

"Maybe this one is clearer (I'll try to stick to the more direct verses for you):

Romans 7:6
" But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Better? The old laws are moot. We are freed from the old laws, and now we serve in the newness of our spirit in the laws that the risen Lord has set forth."
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by General Lee
Deke, what is the point of a test when you have the answer key?

Bro I appriciate the long response. I gotta get outta here. When I get a chance this evening after shift I'll respond.

Dave will tell ya. Dont take it as me attacking you. Its me attacking myself in open source.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:13 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by SquirrelWJ
Actually, I wasn't trying to discount God in this aspect, but question the idea of everything being Fated to happen. If we were truly given Free Will, wouldn't it be sort of asinine to say "You've got Free Will! As long as it fits into this set path"?

Therefore, I'm saying Fate can't necessarily exist, whether you believe in God or not, because if you don't.... the physical world as we know it right now isn't on a set path, therefore it could be concluded that we can't be. And if you DO believe in God, you've got free will to do as you wish. You choose to follow God. Or you don't. It's a choice. You can say "he has a plan for us" but having a plan and enacting it are two different things... it's our choice if we want to follow it, in other words. He just gets to try to nudge us in a better direction. (Some can be more stubborn than others when nudged, basically.)

So really, fate can't exist in the "here's a set path" sort of sense. If we don't know the plan, how do we know how to follow it? So we're bound to make choices against it now and again, changing it. (or putting it off track at least)

Then again, I suppose it's not the journey, it's the final conclusion that could be called our fate. Some just take harder roads than others. Some don't even reach the destination... which I suppose could be paralleled to Heaven and Hell, but even then... that means during our lives we have a choice on how we end up in the end.

Otherwise, I think the hand of God would've smacked me upside the head one too many times already. :p

heres the cliffs.

If we live in a free world and as we can measure and detect certain things happen on a scientific level regardless of any known system of pre-determined otucome then god isnt in total controll.

If god is real, then what we see as free radicals and thinking is really just god's path for that atom or set of atoms to do that thing. The high controll thouht. From the tinyest of the tiny, to biggest of the big.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:17 PM   #105
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Alright. Time to strip this shit down to the pure and simple basics.


You either believe it or you don't. Either way, you're NEVER
going to have the answers. We don't know SHIT about our own world. We just started scratching the extreme surface of science when it comes to understanding everything around us. Just look at how many new animal species are discovered every single day. We know nothing in the big picture of things.

You can sit here and run this same thing into the ground over and over but we'll possibly NEVER know.

Yeah God created everything. For all we know the universe was created by an angry midget. WE DON'T KNOW and it's stupid to sit here and analyze everything like we're even capable of understanding it. We don't know the facts as none of us have been there.

Deke.. you're trying to find faith and you're looking too hard for it. You're simply not going to achieve it. Go to Buddhism if you want inner peace because obviously Christianity isn't going to work for you.

You don't know. I don't know. We don't know. No one knows. If you can fill a void in your heart by believing something then do it. You're not gonna find the answers here. It's all about finding comfort in the world around you.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:19 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Grandman
I too lack the all important " faith " that makes any religion hold water .

...snipped...

I still see the " need " for heaven as a weakness to accept death as the final curtain.

It some what amazes me that we humans are for the most part a scientific minded animal, yet to keep from parishing we can drop all logic and follow a pathetic lack of logic to our end.

I tend to agree. Tried the faith thing, just wasn't my cup of tea. My mother is afraid of dying, and happens to have quite a bit of faith. Me? I don't care how I die, but more how I live. Figure if none of us know when we're going to pass, then why worry about it? It's not like I can escape it, nor am I going to live my life fearing it. I'm just going to do what I want and enjoy the time I've got. If after I'm gone, there really is something after... so be it. I'll worry about it then.

I look at it as a way for those who are afraid of the end, to get over it and be happy now. This would be why you see people on both sides (those with and without faith) who are perfectly content and happy. Everyone's different and deals with situations differently, whether logic is involved or not.

(Hell, look at women and arguments... when they argue, logic has no meaning! :p :tonka: )
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:28 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Deke
Bro I appriciate the long response. I gotta get outta here. When I get a chance this evening after shift I'll respond.

Dave will tell ya. Dont take it as me attacking you. Its me attacking myself in open source.
Deke, I like you because you are as I was a couple years ago. I value you more than the millions of people who "follow" their faiths blindly. I truly believe that you have to question things or else you are opening yourself up to get hurt. Keep searching and questioning Deke, because you can't see the sun without getting out of the dark.

Oh, and just remember:

Luke 15:7
"I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:45 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by SquirrelWJ
I tend to agree. Tried the faith thing, just wasn't my cup of tea. My mother is afraid of dying, and happens to have quite a bit of faith. Me? I don't care how I die, but more how I live. Figure if none of us know when we're going to pass, then why worry about it? It's not like I can escape it, nor am I going to live my life fearing it. I'm just going to do what I want and enjoy the time I've got. If after I'm gone, there really is something after... so be it. I'll worry about it then.

I look at it as a way for those who are afraid of the end, to get over it and be happy now. This would be why you see people on both sides (those with and without faith) who are perfectly content and happy. Everyone's different and deals with situations differently, whether logic is involved or not.

(Hell, look at women and arguments... when they argue, logic has no meaning! :p :tonka: )
Pardon me for getting personal for a sec., but it might help you get some insight.

I do not believe in God simply because I want eternal bliss, am afraid of Hell, or need to fill some huge gap in my heart. I believe it because I see it as fact, I can see the invisible attributes of God's existance are everywhere. I have also explored many scientific theories and they leave me closer to God then before I started.

Now that I live my life as my God would like me to, I am finding that I'm happier than i have ever been. I am having fun in this life, but not the worldly way. I do not get drunk, I do not have pre-marital sex, I do not go to strip clubs, and I still manage to have a ball.

I don't think (at least not for me personally) that faith is just to "make you feel better about dying".
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:55 PM   #109
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General , im glad somthing pulled you in a better direction but the truth is you gained self control nothing more . Perhaps your new found faith is the reason you found self control but that is what occured .

i have worked hard , never been a big drinker , raised a family and been married faithfully for 28 years but i dont bieleve in God . There for its safe to assume he has not been a guiding light in my life . I had the good fortune of self control and the goal ( from an early age ) to get married and raise a family , that goal was my guiding light .

All it takes is a damn good reason , i wanted sucess and a family and had nothing to start with . That kept me on track . You sound like you were heading into the land of for ever a dumb shit and found a " reason " to do better . Like i say , im glad you found your reason , but take the credit for your self , its where it goes .
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:58 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by General Lee
Stuff
Fair enough. Seen a few who look at it that way though. That or just a need to believe in something more than themselves. I commend you on your views though. It's definitely something that I haven't seen in a while.


But, hey! Sorry if it seemed I was knocking you. What works for one may not work for another, but that's ok. We'll still wheel the piss out of our Jeeps and have a blast! :) We going to see you out on the trails at Pig Gig?
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Old April 20th, 2006, 05:05 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Grandman
General , im glad somthing pulled you in a better direction but the truth is you gained self control nothing more . Perhaps your new found faith is the reason you found self control but that is what occured .

i have worked hard , never been a big drinker , raised a family and been married faithfully for 28 years but i dont bieleve in God . There for its safe to assume he has not been a guiding light in my life . I had the good fortune of self control and the goal ( from an early age ) to get married and raise a family , that goal was my guiding light .

All it takes is a damn good reason , i wanted sucess and a family and had nothing to start with . That kept me on track . You sound like you were heading into the land of for ever a dumb shit and found a " reason " to do better . Like i say , im glad you found your reason , but take the credit for your self , its where it goes .
GM, First of all, I would like to say that I have obviously not attained the amount of experience of this life as you have, and I do wish to give you the respect of an elder.

Nevertheless, I still cannot take credit for what I have not done. I found my strength through Jesus. I can't pull myself up without a ladder.

As for your life, I am happy that you have experienced such great worldly success, but it is just that: worldly. And there inlies the difference between "Being a good man" and "Being a good servant of the Lord". I am pleased that your life is as good as it is, but I believe there is a strong difference between worldly success and the success that God truly wishes that we reach.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 05:17 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by SquirrelWJ
Fair enough. Seen a few who look at it that way though. That or just a need to believe in something more than themselves. I commend you on your views though. It's definitely something that I haven't seen in a while.


But, hey! Sorry if it seemed I was knocking you. What works for one may not work for another, but that's ok. We'll still wheel the piss out of our Jeeps and have a blast! :) We going to see you out on the trails at Pig Gig?
First of all, I have to say that I am praying a prayer of thanks and well-being for every person on this forum. I don't mean that as a holier than thou statement!!! (so please don't take it that way!!!) But I seriously mean that you guys have done more for me today than you possibly realize. I have been praying very hard for a chance to repay God for the wonders that He has given me, and I feel blessed that He would give me the opportunity to defend His name. You have all really pushed me to blow the dust off of my Bibles and again dig into his word. I really appreciate it and I am praying thanks for every one of you!

I take no offence to anything that was said by anyone, and I sincerely hope that no one takes offence from anything that I am saying. I'm not in a battle of words to make myself look good or to put anyone down; I am simply attempting to spread God's word and protect it from gross misinterpretation as best I can.

As for the Pig Gig...The Syncros on my Jeep are junk as of now, and I can't keep the blasted thing in any gear. I also have tons of mud in everything (bearings, glove box...you name it). Right now I'm cruising in a super-fly GMC Safari (pictured)

and trying desperatly not to pop my collar, but, I cannot lie, I am feeling the urge. Maybe I'll just stop by for some Orange Juice if Deke will bring me some.

When and where by the way? (is it soon or is it in the fall again?)
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Old April 20th, 2006, 05:54 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by General Lee
Cracker:

You might have missed this:

"Maybe this one is clearer (I'll try to stick to the more direct verses for you):

Romans 7:6
" But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Better? The old laws are moot. We are freed from the old laws, and now we serve in the newness of our spirit in the laws that the risen Lord has set forth."

Gotcha, I had no idea.

I need to read up on the bible alittle more.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 06:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by General Lee

When and where by the way? (is it soon or is it in the fall again?)

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=1797
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Old April 20th, 2006, 07:41 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by RyeBread

"Surely we are not alone in this universe, and thus surely we are not the first sentient beings, and thus since we are not the first, there must be some other life force that is millions, and millions, and millions of years more advanced than us..." /sagan, scientificapproach
pretty poor "logic" for someone that claimed to be a scientist if you ask me. If you believe that the universe as we know it started with a "big bang" and then sentient beings evolved then it stands to reason that one had to be the first. Why can't it be us? Why wouild anyone assume that other worlds evolved faster than us?
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Old April 20th, 2006, 07:45 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Deke
Proven - a theory or fact is proven when the data strongly supports the theory and the competent scientific observers agree that the theory is probably true. Nothing is ever proven absolutely. All knowledge is tentative and subject to revision. Proven means that the scientists collectively have become accustomed to viewing or believing that a certain model is probably true.
Exactly why you'll never really get the answer you're looking for. There is evidence for both sides of the argument, but nothing is ever "absolutly proven"
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Old April 20th, 2006, 07:52 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by brewmenn
but nothing is ever "absolutly proven"

scientific method
n.

The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.



Here are three quotes from my Ayn Rand Lexicon Objectivism from a-z:

Are you in a universe which is ruled by natural laws and, therefore, is stable, firm, absolute - and knowable? Or are you in an incomprehensible chaos, a realm of inexplicable miracles, an unpredictable, unknowable flux, which your mind is impotent to grasp? The nature of your actions - and of your ambition - will be different, according to which set of answers you come to accept.

_____________

To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer.


_____________
The Bible declares that man ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge - he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil - he became a moral being/ He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor - he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire - he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which (the preachers) damn him are reason, morality, creativeness joy - all the cardinal values of his existence.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 08:19 PM   #118
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In the Catholic church, priests wear no hats, cardinals have those little red beanies, and the pope has that big tall hat. Does that mean God wears a huge freakin' sombrero? (statement is not my own, haha)
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Old April 20th, 2006, 08:38 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
scientific method
n.

The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.



Here are three quotes from my Ayn Rand Lexicon Objectivism from a-z:

Are you in a universe which is ruled by natural laws and, therefore, is stable, firm, absolute - and knowable? Or are you in an incomprehensible chaos, a realm of inexplicable miracles, an unpredictable, unknowable flux, which your mind is impotent to grasp? The nature of your actions - and of your ambition - will be different, according to which set of answers you come to accept.

_____________

To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer.


_____________
The Bible declares that man ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge - he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil - he became a moral being/ He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor - he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire - he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which (the preachers) damn him are reason, morality, creativeness joy - all the cardinal values of his existence.




Dammit, I just grabed that book to quote from.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 08:43 PM   #120
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9 pages in 14 hours....impressive I hope in the future they write a book about you too Deke :) This way my grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids, grandkids will hopefully pray to you :)
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