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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:20 PM   #81
Dave Kerwin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyevil
Deke I don't understand. Are you looking for Christianity to be validated? Or are you looking to discredit it?

He is looking to validate it in a roudabout way, he is a wierd dude, but he honestly cares about things above. That's my understanding at least. I love you Deke, I've learned that plautonic love CAN exist between two grown men. I also love Jesus, more than Deke (sorry dude).
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:21 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyevil
Deke I don't understand. Are you looking for Christianity to be validated? Or are you looking to discredit it?
Trying to find faith my brother. By questioning it I am forced to think about it. I am the minority on earth. I dont "believe" anything that sounds illogical and is without a good chunk of solid fact within a theory.

I dont think I can discredit it. "it" will not be credited it untill proven.


What would happen to christianity, the bible and all the churches of jesus is it was proven with fact and cold hard evidence that buddism was it. What they teach is how it is.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:23 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
He is looking to validate it in a roudabout way, he is a wierd dude, but he honestly cares about things above. That's my understanding at least. I love you Deke, I've learned that plautonic love CAN exist between two grown men. I also love Jesus, more than Deke (sorry dude).


I'll admitt, I did at first see you as an adversary. But after you kept coming back with answers you really believed in I've been trying to find faith. No luck still. The way real true believers have that faith.... I want to be a part of it. My mind refuses to allow that to happen as of now.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:23 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke
Faith. You get put in and where facts dont exsist you tie the bonds with faith. Its the very basis of a religion. Its that fuzzy glue that holds all the things together.

God's word? Why must god's word be learned from via humans? Why must the all everything. the man who created my path and everything. why not....

faith... i must have faith to believe. Wellllll A lotta people got faith they are gona win the lottery. blind faith that hey.... technically... this number could come up.
I am using facts, Deke. God's word is fact and truth. This is where the fun and games end, and the truth must be faced. You can keep posting things from our Constitution, but those are men's words and they are backed by [B]men[B]. I am referencing the Word of God, and it is backed by God himself.

Why do the words come through men, you ask. Well, why did Jesus speak in parables. According to Him, it was so:

(Mark 4:10)

"Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand."

As I said earlier: if God said it to you face to face (and if you actually believed him) we wouldn't be having this conversation, but what kind of test would that be???

John 20:29
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:24 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by General Lee
I am using facts, Deke. God's word is fact and truth.

I stopped reading right there.

Prove to me 100% without a ounce of faith, theory or doubt. Right now.

I want facts. I dont want any bullshit. gods word. On the table.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:30 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Deke
I stopped reading right there.

Prove to me 100% without a ounce of faith, theory or doubt. Right now.

I want facts. I dont want any bullshit. gods word. On the table.
Help me out Deke. I will give you what you want if you can tell me what a 100% fact is.

If you can give me an example, I can help you out.

Oh, and you have to read the whole thing:

Proverbs 18:13

"He who answers a matter before he hears it,
It is a folly and a shame to him."
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:46 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee
Help me out Deke. I will give you what you want if you can tell me what a 100% fact is.

If you can give me an example, I can help you out.

Oh, and you have to read the whole thing:

Proverbs 18:13

"He who answers a matter before he hears it,
It is a folly and a shame to him."
In science 'fact' is an objective and verifiable observation.

Outside of science, a word 'fact' may be associated with some of the following:

* A honest observation confirmed by widely respected observers.
* Errors are common in the interpretation of the meaning of observations.
* Power is frequently used to force the politcally correct interpretation of an observation.
* A repeatedly observed regularity.
* Something thought to be actual as opposed to invented.
* Something concrete used as a basis for further interpretation.
* Information about a particular subject.
* Something believed to be the case.
* One observation of any phenomenon does not prove anything. Repeatability of an observation is required usually by using the stated procedures or operational definitions of a phenomenon.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:57 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke
In science 'fact' is an objective and verifiable observation.

Outside of science, a word 'fact' may be associated with some of the following:

* A honest observation confirmed by widely respected observers.
* Errors are common in the interpretation of the meaning of observations.
* Power is frequently used to force the politcally correct interpretation of an observation.
* A repeatedly observed regularity.
* Something thought to be actual as opposed to invented.
* Something concrete used as a basis for further interpretation.
* Information about a particular subject.
* Something believed to be the case.
* One observation of any phenomenon does not prove anything. Repeatability of an observation is required usually by using the stated procedures or operational definitions of a phenomenon.

What do you consider verifiable?

Was Jesus not honestly observed by widely respected observers?
Was he not seen repeatedly observed while he was on earth?
Was he not an actual person; flesh and blood, yet God in man?
Was he not real and concrete?

Deke, please give me an example. I need to see what you are willing to accept as fact before I can tell you things that you will consider 100% facts.

"...because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man..."

(Romans19-23)

Man! You really don't want me to get my chem homework done!
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:22 PM   #89
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What's with all of the crickets?

I'm getting lonely!
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:25 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee
What's with all of the crickets?

I'm getting lonely!
I know you'll find this shocking, but it is currently business hours. I hope you understand. Do not take my lack of expediant response a lack of intrest in the conversation.

fawk. to many big words


NIGGAS WORKING. BE BACK. when done.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:37 PM   #91
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Deke, what are your views on Ex 21:20-21?

If I own a slave, and he marries, and has children, his wife and children are my property forever, even though I have to let him leave after 6 years.

Do you think I should get to own the original slave also? Or do you think I have to let him go after the 6 years are up?

And also, in Ex 21:26-27 it states that If I whale my slave in the eye with a sharp object, I have to let him go. What happens if it was an accident? Can I still keep him?
still waiting on a response.

I need to know what to do, the 6 years are up in about 34 minutes.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:42 PM   #92
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If money is the root of all evil, why do churches beg for it?
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:54 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
Deke, what are your views on Ex 21:20-21?

If I own a slave, and he marries, and has children, his wife and children are my property forever, even though I have to let him leave after 6 years.

Do you think I should get to own the original slave also? Or do you think I have to let him go after the 6 years are up?

And also, in Ex 21:26-27 it states that If I whale my slave in the eye with a sharp object, I have to let him go. What happens if it was an accident? Can I still keep him?
Given you are following god's word I will respond to this post with the idea that god is in total controll.

Are you sure the kids are his? Did you check with maury?

I think.... hell no. Nigga's gotta work. I think after 6 years home boy better of pumped 6 kids outta his wife.

Also - given gods total nature of things... nothing is accidental. Fate is hand in hand with faith. So by that logic... you just disproved everything.


/post

That was.... me being my own DA
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:56 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by AWK
If money is the root of all evil, why do churches beg for it?
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:59 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee
What do you consider verifiable?

Was Jesus not honestly observed by widely respected observers?
Was he not seen repeatedly observed while he was on earth?
Was he not an actual person; flesh and blood, yet God in man?
Was he not real and concrete?
Jesus... is not god. god is not jesus. father son. son father via bible accounts.
yes, historical evidence suggests jesus was real. Does the fact that jesus was a human suggest that god is a real entity. Nope.
in the words of.... whoever.... I'll have what he smoked.

Quote:
Deke, please give me an example. I need to see what you are willing to accept as fact before I can tell you things that you will consider 100% facts.

"...because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man..."

(Romans19-23)

Man! You really don't want me to get my chem homework done!
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #96
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Proven - a theory or fact is proven when the data strongly supports the theory and the competent scientific observers agree that the theory is probably true. Nothing is ever proven absolutely. All knowledge is tentative and subject to revision. Proven means that the scientists collectively have become accustomed to viewing or believing that a certain model is probably true.

Truth means that the data or facts have accumulated to such an extent it becomes increasingly difficult to see another way of understanding what the data actually means. Historically, truths are found not to be true.


Belief is an opinion or trust in a particular point of view. Dogma is an unquestioned or strong belief system. Dogmatic people frequently know that they know the truth. They also frequently know that you must be punished for your transgressions from the truth.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #97
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General lee , somthing that was written by a 3rd party can not be held as fact .

I too lack the all important " faith " that makes any religion hold water .

With out that huge leap of faith to fill the gaps there is nothing .

Yet the bones of a caveman are here , pretty easy for me to figure out where i came from and Adam was not a long lost relative .

I still see the " need " for heaven as a weakness to except death as the finale curtain . You must feel the need to live on to buy into so many unprovable stories .

It some what amzes me that we humans are for the most part a sentific minded animal yet to keep from parishing we can drop all logic and follow a pathatic lack of logic to our end .
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #98
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Statements of fact

A statement of fact or a factual claim is a statement that is presented as an accurate representation of a situation, event, or condition, and that is capable of being either proved or disproved.

If a factual claim is incorrect, then it is called a mistake or an error (if the person making the statement believed it to be correct) or a lie (if the person making the statement did not believe it). A factual claim shown to be correct is a fact. A factual claim that was believed to be true may later shown to be false (disproved), and a factual claim believed to have been disproved may later shown to be true. A fact that was once a fact and hence becomes disproven may once again become a fact if the factual evidence supporting its validity become increasingly factual in light of new and, ultimately, factual evidence. Supporting evidence may become realised for a fact long after the fact itself was first established and, thus, a factual claim must be as fact once the Popperian elements of falsification have been exausted - a process that never ends - to end with a fact accepted in the social. A belief that cannot be proved or disproved is an opinion.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:04 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke
So he programed people to go against his word? And thus... god would no be perfect?

Or is this the devils influence? in which case.. if god was see all know all and programed it all. wouldnt that be.... dumb?

If he did it all, then yes. He put the path for someone to put the window in. He made the material to make the window. etc. etc. etc. Its a TOTAL thing. You cant jsut have weee lil parts that ya like.


And this little piggy went to the market
and this lil piggy ran down to the river
and this old piggy got in the grand(edit H3) and got stuck

Isnt god .... by the very definition...an alien. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ition&ct=title


so he isnt really showing us his love then? I mean.... why have a kid then forget to love it till its dead? again, I could be missing the bigger picture on that one, but god never addressed it to me. For the fact of the matter... never directly addressed anything....


You shot yourself in the foot on that one. College is great for teaching you time management skills. Good luck with the engineering; its a toughie. Do you believe that you directly controll how your daily/weekly/monthly/yearly outcome will be.... or has god already programed that to happen. and is controlling you to do your home work or not. To drink or not?

I entertained the idea that god.... would be like I want ___ to happen. and from there it was just happening. Different ways to skin a cat.



:tonka:

Deke, what is the point of a test when you have the answer key? This world is a test. Temptations from those who are unfaithful are part of the test of life. I don't know if you have kids, but those who do can relate: Do you ever let your kids fall? Do you ever let them try something even if you know that they won't succeed? Sometimes you have to let go of the bike seat. You could hold on forever, but they will never learn to ride. And, if they fall, you know that they will run back to your arms crying and wanting a big hug and a kiss, and not just sit on the ground and wonder why they have bruises and scrapes.

I do believe that God made the path for someone to put the window in, and he made the material, and he did everything else. I didn't say that he didn't. I meant that he did not actually pick up the window, in front of everyone, and stick it into the frame. I weaved nothing.

As far as God being an alien is concerned, if you use this definition:
# extraterrestrial being: a form of life assumed to exist outside the Earth or its atmosphere
then I suppose that you could call Him an alien. But there is a giant disperity between the God who created the universe, and the creatures that are on the SCIFI channel.

As far as your 'love' argument is concerned, I'm not sure where you are going with that.

About the ability for God to attend to every person personally, I don't believe I shot myself in the foot. God made me capable to handle everything and he has led me to where I am. I do not believe that I directly control my daily/weekly/monthly/yearly outcome. God does control everything, and he has placed me at my desk at this very moment to converse with you and ignore my homework.

Lastly, I guess I don't understand why you are laughing at the fact that I quit drinking and am hoping and praying for Miffy. About the drinking-My relationships with my family, friends, and girlfriend (not to mention my performance at school and work and countless other aspects of my life) were beginning to suffer because I was never sober...ever. I was lucky enough to realize that my life started to revolve around my next beer to the point where I would sacrafice my food money (which was already scarce) to pay someone to get me another case. Drinking is fine in moderation, but I am unable to control myself (If you give a mouse a cookie...). I don't know why you would laugh, but it is a serious issue to me, and I would appreciate it if you didn't.

If the laugh was about me wishing the best for Miffy then I understand you even less. While I do not know Miffy personally, I love with the love that Jesus asked me to have for my neighbor, and I will pray for Miffy almost as much as I pray for you Deke (I know that you are not asking for prayer, but you have really helped me grow and explore within these past few hours. I really needed this conversation, as I myself was not paying the proper attention to God these past few days. Thanks!)
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Old April 20th, 2006, 04:04 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandman
General lee , somthing that was written by a 3rd party can not be held as fact .

I too lack the all important " faith " that makes any religion hold water .

With out that huge leap of faith to fill the gaps there is nothing .

Yet the bones of a caveman are here , pretty easy for me to figure out where i came from and Adam was not a long lost relative .

I still see the " need " for heaven as a weakness to except death as the finale curtain . You must feel the need to live on to buy into so many unprovable stories .

It some what amzes me that we humans are for the most part a sentific minded animal yet to keep from parishing we can drop all logic and follow a pathatic lack of logic to our end .

G-man. wise. logical. Yet will be recieved the same way as I have been.

The bible offers a buncha building blocks. It lacks any motor to hold it together. It offers shelter. It offers protection. It says without it you are screwed. Well... duhh. You need faith.
Faith is to religon what motor is to a totally brick building.
without it.... the whole thing comes crumbling down. Sure you're left with some bricks... but that doesnt prove the over all theory.

Expanding further.

You tell me with faith.. that religion is true. And without it some parts still hold true and thus it totally must be true?

using bricks and motor.

with motor a building is a building. rooms. floors. roof. Without motor? Its a pile of bricks. Still bricks.... yes... but not a building. It could be a foundtain. A parking lot. A house. A bar.
Beats me.
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