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Old July 8th, 2008, 09:55 AM   #21
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By the way, no one should equate the big bang with creating life

Big bang created the universe, it's a completely separate mechanism (scientifically speaking) that created life!
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Old July 8th, 2008, 09:56 AM   #22
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well, we could just use the same explanation that creationist (is that the right term?) use when asked where God came from.....it was always just there
(I don't know if creationist is the correct term or not, i just used it to describe myself, I'm not a hard core tree hugger hung up on "titles".)

Your arguement is very well supported in the scientific community and it is why we are still discussing Evolution vs. Creation to this day. It's a Chicken and egg question that I don't think either side is willing to give in and accept.

And the beat goes on.....
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Old July 8th, 2008, 09:57 AM   #23
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In his conclusion to The Origin of Species, he wrote the “…view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one,” thus making it evident that the subject of origins was open to further examination. What Darwin beleived in a Creator? Thats crazy talk
Read Bryson's book... he talks to this very point and I think he does a great job of it!
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Old July 8th, 2008, 09:59 AM   #24
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and just keep in mind, anything i say is not to rip on christianity, caz who knows, maybe god created the big bang, theres so much that the bible left out....maybey when he said let there be light....that was the big bang....it's quite possible that he followed the laws of nature when creating the universe and all life in it instead of just saying "poof there it is". the people who wrote the bible had no knowledge of the big bang or evolution so maybe thats why they just wrote, god said...and so it was
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:06 AM   #25
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By the way, no one should equate the big bang with creating life

Big bang created the universe, it's a completely separate mechanism (scientifically speaking) that created life!
I agree, the theory claims to explain why the universe appeared, and to my knowledge did not mention life itself. Since the big bang theory appears to explain so much, why doubt it? Because there is also much that it does not explain. That is where I associated the existence of life and how life can’t be created from destruction.

I guess in a limited discussion on just the Big Bang Theory I would have to argue from a differnt angle and leave the subject lifes creation out of it. But I was lumping the whole "Existence" of the universe and life into my thoughts here.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #26
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Read Bryson's book... he talks to this very point and I think he does a great job of it!


Are you talking about Reid A. Bryson - the meterologist? I am not familair with him. Or another Bryson?
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:14 AM   #27
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I agree, the theory claims to explain why the universe appeared, and to my knowledge did not mention life itself. Since the big bang theory appears to explain so much, why doubt it? Because there is also much that it does not explain. That is where I associated the existence of life and how life can’t be created from destruction.
I wasn't responding specifically to you when I mentioned not associating the big bang with creation of life.

Agreed that it doesn't explain everything, but that was the point of my last comment about a "God of the gaps".

Bill Bryson, I cited his book earlier in the thread:

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A Short History of Nearly Everything, Bill Bryson

This is great and tackles all of the major scientific discoveries/theories from a very easy-to-read perspective and he's a pretty damn funny guy, adding in funny bits about the different people involved. It covers the big bang and everything that folks should at least know something about. Broken up into short bits on each topic, this is easy to pick up and put down as needed. I'm about 3/4 through this.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #28
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I wasn't responding specifically to you when I mentioned not associating the big bang with creation of life.

Agreed that it doesn't explain everything, but that was the point of my last comment about a "God of the gaps".

Bill Bryson, I cited his book earlier in the thread:
Oh, I thought you were responding to me...my bad.


Bill Bryson - the guy who writes travel books, similar to some of P.J. O'Rourke's travel books. I didn't see your reference to him but I see it now. I think I might give him a look...he seems to write in "every day" language...something I can understand.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #29
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I personally think that the universe and all of the matter contained within has always existed.

I obviously have no evidence/research to back this up but it makes sense in my head.
So the universe is eternal, and you don't have any reason to believe that, yet you say that an eternal God is not true, but you have reasons to not believe that? How does that work exactly?
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:28 AM   #30
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..he seems to write in "every day" language...something I can understand.
I didn't know of him or his other books, but I heard to many people mentioning the book and finally got it myself.

He's VERY "every day" in this book and makes everything understandable, that's one of the reasons he cited for wanting to write it, most of what was out there couldn't be read by most folks.

For instance, I'm an engineer by training and scientific notation is a second-nature thing for me (expressing large numbers by a base number multiplied by some power of 10). When talking about things like space, the size of the universe, the age of the universe, the size of atoms, etc. it's pretty handy to make the huge or tiny numbers understandable/writeable.

Bryson spends a page or so at the beginning of the book talking about how it makes no sense to him and how you can write them out in normal words... it was funny as hell to me, but it helps most people understand, so he uses terms like "hundred billion trillion" rather than writing in scientific notation.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:34 AM   #31
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So the universe is eternal, and you don't have any reason to believe that, yet you say that an eternal God is not true, but you have reasons to not believe that? How does that work exactly?
It's a matter of what someone can make work in their own heads... he said that "it makes sense in his head" and that should be enough.

If faith in a creator is what makes sense in your head, that's basis for belief, but for those of us that think differently, have a different point of view, have different backgrounds, different education, different belief systems, different influences, etc. etc. it's a matter of what we can make sense of in our own heads.

This is why you can't (or shouldn't) be able to simply tell/explain something to someone about science/religion/faith and have them simply accept it.

It's up to everyone to look at what they have available in their own experience and come to their own beliefs.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 05:22 PM   #32
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By the way, no one should equate the big bang with creating life

Big bang created the universe, it's a completely separate mechanism (scientifically speaking) that created life!
I always here this as a way for people to weasel out of the "origin of life" question.

If you're talking about the "big bang" they say the big bang is about the creation of the universe, not creating life.

If you're talking about evolution they say that evolution is about how complex species developed from simple life forms, not how life began.

I have yet to here a good scientific theory about how the universe went from a state of having no life (early big bang) to the state of having life (now).

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Old July 8th, 2008, 05:32 PM   #33
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I have yet to here a good theory about how the universe went from a state of having no life (early big bang) to the state of having life (now).
not even the "god did it" theory?


I don't know about you guys, but I'm 100% comfortable with saying I don't know...
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Old July 8th, 2008, 05:45 PM   #34
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not even the "god did it" theory?


I don't know about you guys, but I'm 100% comfortable with saying I don't know...
I meant "scientific theory". I changed it in my post.

I'm OK with saying I don't know. What bug me is how most people on both sides of the argument will just ignore whatever does not fit there theory.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 06:16 PM   #35
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based on knowledge or beliefs that we (mankind) posses you have exactly 3 choices.

1)Something came from nothing.

2)Something came from something. (God)

3)None of the above.

I have always like the theory that our universe is nothing but sub atomic particles that make up matter in something so large it's beyond our comprehension. Like my keyboard has about a gazzilion little universes in the colon key.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #36
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based on knowledge or beliefs that we (mankind) posses you have exactly 3 choices.

1)Something came from nothing.

2)Something came from something. (God)

3)None of the above.

I have always like the theory that our universe is nothing but sub atomic particles that make up matter in something so large it's beyond our comprehension. Like my keyboard has about a gazzilion little universes in the colon key.
Well I wouldn't count "none of the above" as an "exact" choice.

And you left out "something always existed"
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Old July 9th, 2008, 09:35 AM   #37
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Thats it! Im gonna wait by a junk yard and wait for an explosion. I just may get that jeep Ive been wanting. Really I don't have a problem with a big bang THEORY; however one does have to ask where did this compressed matter come from? If the matter has "always" been there then wouldn't that be a "god" in its self? just wondering .
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Old July 9th, 2008, 11:49 AM   #38
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Thats it! Im gonna wait by a junk yard and wait for an explosion. I just may get that jeep Ive been wanting. Really I don't have a problem with a big bang THEORY; however one does have to ask where did this compressed matter come from? If the matter has "always" been there then wouldn't that be a "god" in its self? just wondering .
If you read up on string theory, they seem to have some interesting and very difficult to understand answers on where it came from, but there is a lot missing in this, still very new theory of life, the universe, and everything.


BTW: The answer is 42. Now what was the question?
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Old July 9th, 2008, 02:02 PM   #39
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If you read up on string theory, they seem to have some interesting and very difficult to understand answers on where it came from, but there is a lot missing in this, still very new theory of life, the universe, and everything.


BTW: The answer is 42. Now what was the question?
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Old July 9th, 2008, 08:13 PM   #40
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It's a matter of what someone can make work in their own heads... he said that "it makes sense in his head" and that should be enough. ...

It's up to everyone to look at what they have available in their own experience and come to their own beliefs.
Everyone could be wrong but not everyone can be right.
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