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Old June 24th, 2008, 05:00 AM   #41
muddin_wolverine
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before the white man came...
white people. ugh.

lolzz

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Old June 24th, 2008, 06:47 AM   #42
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I tend to agree with the original poster. I think we've gone overboard with accusing everyone that has gotten a tire muddy of illegal wheeling. Just about everyone who has done any wheeling in Michigan has at some point gone somewhere illegal. They may not have known it was illegal.
That's the point Bruce, As much as we discuss what is and is not legal in teh state of Michigan, some still don't get it. Some from just being a newbie, some by choice. I think it's the ones by choice that most struggle with.

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It's getting so that unless you have a GPS track, plat map, and signed and notarized letter from the land owner and the state of Michigan verifying that you had permission to be in that location of the said property people will still accuse you of illegal wheeling.

This is part of the reason I rarely take, much less post pictures of 4 wheeling trips anymore.
Case in point, you DO need this to be on private land. But how many know this or even do this when out playing in some guys field.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 09:30 AM   #43
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...
Another one that come to mind is Silver Lake Sand Dunes. There's a little wet area just west of the drag strip. Dip a tire into that wet area and your find yourself in Court in violation of wetlands trespass. The DNR like to sit hidden near that area and nab you when you least expect it.
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That's just great. So the resource is there to protect the area - that resource being a PAID DNR officer, and instead of sitting out in plain view and advising people that it is illegal to enter the area and actively protecting it... they sit in hiding waiting for someone to break the law so that they can write a ticket AFTER the person has presumably entered and damaged the area. My tax money at work... love it.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 09:53 AM   #44
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Case in point, you DO need this to be on private land. But how many know this or even do this when out playing in some guys field.
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Do you have a reference out of the MCL for this "case in point"?
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Old June 24th, 2008, 11:45 AM   #45
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II did, the DEQ stopped me cold.

The DEQ is a fucking joke. They will do anything they can to stop the private sector of the public to not "harm" the wildlife areas, but anytime a business is polluting (ie 1000's of gallons of liquid manure knifed in on a 5 acre lot and polluting ground water with runoff) or a business wants to go in and build it's ok.

It get's old quick.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 03:18 PM   #46
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The DEQ is a fucking joke. They will do anything they can to stop the private sector of the public to not "harm" the wildlife areas, but anytime a business is polluting (ie 1000's of gallons of liquid manure knifed in on a 5 acre lot and polluting ground water with runoff) or a business wants to go in and build it's ok.

It get's old quick.
you better get educated before you talk. the DEQ does a lot more than you think.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 07:11 PM   #47
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Ok down in the southwest corner that is all the agents cared about when contacting them because of water pollution. They didn't go to any board meetings and sat in their office and made their decisions from there. They have been worthless in my area. If there are better ones/agents out there, then they need to get rid of the others.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 07:12 PM   #48
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Ok down in the southwest corner that is all the agents cared about when contacting them because of water pollution. They didn't go to any board meetings and sat in their office and made their decisions from there. They have been worthless in my area. If there are better ones/agents out there, then they need to get rid of the others.
they are on top of things all the time at well sites and storage/treater areas. they do soil samples around the rig and tank battery's and dykes, and if they show enough contamination we have to haul the soil to the landfill.

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Old June 24th, 2008, 09:16 PM   #49
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Do you have a reference out of the MCL for this "case in point"?
It's in the Recreational Trespass law which is part of P.A. 451 however it appears as though they've added 'oral' to the verbiage now. The documentation and permission slips I have states 'written only'. (Page 81 of the 'Michigan Off Road Vehicle Safety Training Course' if you're interested). If you look at section #5 of the law you see that it's pretty easy for the land owner to 'change' his mind.
So....oral permission appears to be ok now. But then it's your word against his.


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1rl...=mcl-324-73102

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Old June 24th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #50
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I am lol'ing at a lot of this.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 10:00 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
It's in the Recreational Trespass law which is part of P.A. 451 however it appears as though they've added 'oral' to the verbiage now. The documentation and permission slips I have states 'written only'. (Page 81 of the 'Michigan Off Road Vehicle Safety Training Course' if you're interested). If you look at section #5 of the law you see that it's pretty easy for the land owner to 'change' his mind.
So....oral permission appears to be ok now. But then it's your word against his.


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1rl...=mcl-324-73102

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(1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon the property of another person, other than farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property, to engage in any recreational activity or trapping on that property without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, if either of the following circumstances exists:

(a) The property is fenced or enclosed and is maintained in such a manner as to exclude intruders.

(b) The property is posted in a conspicuous manner against entry. The minimum letter height on the posting signs shall be 1 inch. Each posting sign shall be not less than 50 square inches, and the signs shall be spaced to enable a person to observe not less than 1 sign at any point of entry upon the property.
So according to that if it isn't fenced or posted it's free game?

Of course I know it's not, but that's what the law you posted says. I know that to legally wheel on private property you need the land owners permission, and is the land owner isn't going to be there with you you should probably have it in writing.

But that's not the point I'm arguing, nor do I think it's what the original poster was talking about. What I'm talking about is the kangaroo court of public opinion. The "guilty until proven innocent" attitude that seems to be becoming popular. I don't think we help further our cause by publicly blasting anyone who dares to post a picture that might possibly depict illegal wheeling and demand proof that all laws were followed. All this does is drive people away from the organizations like GLFWDA and sends them further into hiding. I think many end up thinking "well if the existing trail I always run is illegal I may as well ignore the law altogether and do what I want".
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Old June 24th, 2008, 10:08 PM   #52
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I think many end up thinking "well if the existing trail I always run is illegal I may as well ignore the law altogether and do what I want".
if you don't try your best to be legal you'll just end up with more of this:

And it's a PITA for those who are trying to keep the trails open.

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Old June 24th, 2008, 10:18 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
if you don't try your best to be legal you'll just end up with more of this:

And it's a PITA for those who are trying to keep the trails open.

jim-kb8ymf
I don't disagree with that. I just don't think that wildly accusing people of illegal wheeling is the best way to get people to not do it.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 10:23 PM   #54
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here we go again...
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Old June 24th, 2008, 10:27 PM   #55
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It can't be talked about enough. There are enough changes going on right now with ORV both positive and negative that make it worthwhile.

Email your senators about the HB ORV mail (in Rules and Regulations forum). Everyone but Cocktoy knows this is a good thing for the sport even if it doesn't apply to fullsize vehicles or Boats.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 11:14 PM   #56
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So according to that if it isn't fenced or posted it's free game?

Of course I know it's not, but that's what the law you posted says. I know that to legally wheel on private property you need the land owners permission, and is the land owner isn't going to be there with you you should probably have it in writing.

But that's not the point I'm arguing, nor do I think it's what the original poster was talking about. What I'm talking about is the kangaroo court of public opinion. The "guilty until proven innocent" attitude that seems to be becoming popular. I don't think we help further our cause by publicly blasting anyone who dares to post a picture that might possibly depict illegal wheeling and demand proof that all laws were followed.
Yep. The land owner was right there with us, and was actually the one that suggested that I try to make it through his yard. He then winched, and then strapped me out of the two holes.

He explained it in the other thread here when some guy started bitching about the pics that were posted after the Jun 21st ride I (along with the help of a couple others) organized.
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Its assuming ass holes like you that I cant stand. I own 14 acres south of Baldwin and the so called "grassy wetland" is on MY property. My neighbor owns 40 acres and had a portion of it logged off over 10 years ago. This is one of a couple rotting log piles that are still on HIS property that I have HIS permission to hunt, fish, and four wheel on. I think you might want to keep you comments to yourself unless you know the "actual" facts surrounding the situation. Look forward to seeing you on the back trail sometime or maybe better I can show you the "grassy wetland" on my property personally......
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Thanks for the support Rockrat. We all had a great day trail riding on totally legal terrain, it was one of the best trail rides I have been on in quite a while. I can't begin to tell you how much it pisses me off to hear crack comments like the one above. I feel like inviting the whole forum over to my cabin just to make the biggest friggin mud bog you have ever seen out of my "grassy wetland". Actually I dont ever let anyone go through it but this was one exception that I gave Foamer. It was fun and we all had a blast. Also, I plan to keep molesting that log pile until it gets the best of me or I finally make it over. I totally agree with your comment, If you dont have anything good to say keep your mouth shut, especially if you have no idea what your talking about. Go back to Web Wheelin...

I also found this quote from the land owner amusing....
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Watch out for that Foamer guy Joe, all he wants to do is trash protected wetlands, continually drive on unmarked and illegal trails, molest and abuse innocent indangered log piles (usually rare rainforest trees that he illegally imported and stacked in the Baldwin north woods), and eats lots of pizza !!!!! LOL LOL Seriously, Foamer is a great guy that goes out of his way to protect the sport by abiding by the rules and does a great job making sure the route he takes is totally legal. You should meet up with him for a trail ride if possible.

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Old June 25th, 2008, 11:51 AM   #57
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the other thread here when some guy started bitching about the pics that were posted after the Jun 21st ride I (along with the help of a couple others) organized.
Well first off my apologies to Foamer and Rubiclone and the rest of the attendees on this trip for accusing them of illegal wheeling.

It was easy to think that you were doing some questionable activities when your post was riddled with how legal you wanted to keep this event, and then post pics of someone in what seemed like a wetland and another on a log pile, both of which could be found along a legal trail. To avoid any confusion, you should have not posted those particular pics or captioned them as on private properety. Just a little upsetting that you're talking "legal legal legal" and then post pics of this legal ride with what anybody could have thought of as illegal events. And for the record, the pics of those playing in the mud on the trail don't bother me one bit, I'm all for it. The mud pic I questioned looked like a single mud hole in a grassy area.

I do stand strongly against illegal wheeling as I believe it is one of the main reasons more and more trails/areas get closed off. It angers me when people wheel where their not supposed to and those of us who do follow the laws have to suffer for it.

So again, my apologies. Didn't mean to start such a ruckus, thank you for keeping it on private property, and thank you for keeping legality in mind when planning events.

Eric

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