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Old June 23rd, 2008, 09:03 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
there are very strict definitions of wetlands as well. Simply cause something is wet, or even flooded does not in and of itself make it a protected wetland.

considerations include:
• soil type
• vegetation types
• frequency of water saturation, etc.

for more reading look here: www.deq.state.mi.us/documents/deq-water-wetlands-chap3.pdf

armchair quarterbacks, looking at online photographs does not a wetland delineation make...
Here is a good manual for determining what is a wetland.
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/wlman87.pdf

I couldn't get your link to work.

That is a very valid point, not every wet field is a wetland. However, if it has a cattail, you better believe you are in a questionable place.
I am a certified Storm Water Operator by the MDEQ (License # C-deleted). So I have a little more experience with wetlands than the average arm-chair quarterback. While I have never accused anyone on here of wheeling in wetlands, I often see many pics on here that I know are illegal. I am not into public e-thumping (well not with strangers or unless named AJ Hall), but I have sent PM's to folks asking them kindly to remove their questionable photos. However, very few do remove them.

Last edited by 4x Fanatic; June 23rd, 2008 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Ryebread said so! Good idea!
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 09:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by PavementPounder View Post
I consider assault with an AK to be quite sporting, as those things suck so much that the target has a high chance of escaping unscathed...



...and killing the shooter.
I would never hunt with one, but hey, to each their own. I am against the AWB, and I don't care how we get there. I would use an open sight M14.

I was looking on a anti-ORV web site and saw a picture of a hill back home in Wilson Canyon used as an example. It is a popular dirt bike hill and is legal. They just show the trails and refer to it as "damage".
A logging company can blaze a trail and clear-cut the land. Fence their road on "our public land". That is a waste.

For the record I am not infering that wanton damage our public lands is okay. I support reasonable access and use and feel no need to hide.

Last edited by XXXJ; June 23rd, 2008 at 09:20 AM.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 09:10 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by 4x Fanatic View Post
Here is a good manual for determining what is a wetland.
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/wlman87.pdf

I couldn't get your link to work.

That is a very valid point, not every wet field is a wetland. However, if it has a cattail, you better believe you are in a questionable place.
I am a certified Storm Water Operator by the MDEQ (License # C-xxxxx). So I have a little more experience with wetlands than the average arm-chair quarterback. While I have never accused anyone on here of wheeling in wetlands, I often see many pics on here that I know are illegal. I am not into public e-thumping (well not with strangers or unless named AJ Hall), but I have sent PM's to folks asking them kindly to remove their questionable photos. However, very few do remove them.

fair enough. re: my link - the forum software truncated it. I do confess to not staying current with the various levels of wetland delineation and regulation bureaucracies - instead leaving it to experts in that field.

No need to post your license, or other personally identifiable information here. You and I are "on the same side" when it comes to the subject at hand, I was just offering up a devils' advocate side of things. (for what it's worth, my parents back up to 40 acres of very rare wetlands called a 'fen' that the owners wanted additional protection established - not trusting the DEQ, etc, to protect the area, they filed their own private covenants/deed restrictions on it.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 09:14 AM   #24
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Michigan is a swamp. Always has been, always will be.
much of Michigan was actually nearly impenetrable forest with narrow game trails with interspersed lakes, wetlands and streams, before the white man came...

it is with some cynicism that I look upon our current regulations, and how fiercely they sometimes are enforced, then look at a house on stilts built in a bog/wetland on orchard lake, and/or think back to the fact that basically the entire city of Royal Oak is built on a former wetland...
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 09:21 AM   #25
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btw....even a fire road can be considered wetland if it is flooded enough and there are certain plants growing right out of the road. Fortunately, even the DNR is nice enough to realize that good smart people may not even realize driving down a road may be illegal.



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Old June 23rd, 2008, 09:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Foamer View Post


I dont get it. Why not get the facts first before calling someone a jackass that is ruining the 4x4 opportunities? Just because the is mud, or weeds does not automatically make it illegal. you have private property, etc.

Hell, I even dodged wild lupines on a legal and open trail this weekend. Yes, I went like 2 feet off the trail, but I did not run over the Lupines that the state is working so hard to protect.

It just pisses me off that when someone posts pictures online of people in mud, or weeds, they automatically assume you are breaking the law.
the long and the short of it is people like to bitch

and they hate like hell to see pic... of people having fun, when they were not there

easey fix stop posting pic.. of your wheeling
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 10:01 AM   #27
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I can definitely see where fastrt6dakota is coming from, and agree with him; nobody wants to set back the years of hard work put in to save the 4x4 opportunities in this state (which is generally against us).

But my point is, someone else posted a photo of me stuck in mud, and all hell breaks loose. I was not bragging about it, it was legal, and while my CO friend was not able to come along due to a family emergency at the last minute, he did see the pics and GPS route, and said it was awesome, and that we did not go ANYWHERE that was off-limits from what he could see. Most of the trip was 4-digit forest roads, and the rest was the Tin-Cup trail. After everyone left, a couple of us went to some private property and the land owner was with us in his jeep.

It just irritates me that someone would call someone a jackass, and attack them before maybe PM'ing the other person to get the facts first. We went out of our way to only travel legal roads.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 10:24 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Foamer View Post
I can definitely see where fastrt6dakota is coming from, and agree with him; nobody wants to set back the years of hard work put in to save the 4x4 opportunities in this state (which is generally against us).

But my point is, someone else posted a photo of me stuck in mud, and all hell breaks loose. I was not bragging about it, it was legal, and while my CO friend was not able to come along due to a family emergency at the last minute, he did see the pics and GPS route, and said it was awesome, and that we did not go ANYWHERE that was off-limits from what he could see. Most of the trip was 4-digit forest roads, and the rest was the Tin-Cup trail. After everyone left, a couple of us went to some private property and the land owner was with us in his jeep.

It just irritates me that someone would call someone a jackass, and attack them before maybe PM'ing the other person to get the facts first. We went out of our way to only travel legal roads.

welcome to the board
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 11:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by PavementPounder View Post
I consider assault with an AK to be quite sporting, as those things suck so much that the target has a high chance of escaping unscathed...



...and killing the shooter.
you suck.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 11:16 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
there are very strict definitions of wetlands as well. Simply cause something is wet, or even flooded does not in and of itself make it a protected wetland.

considerations include:
soil type
vegetation types
frequency of water saturation, etc.

for more reading look here: www.deq.state.mi.us/documents/deq-water-wetlands-chap3.pdf

armchair quarterbacks, looking at online photographs does not a wetland delineation make...

Yes and No

Size and location relative to larger bodies of water or streams are the first two criteria for determining a regulated wetland. If its under the minimum size defined for regulation by the state or local government then it doesn't matter what grows there.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 11:33 AM   #31
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Yes and No

Size and location relative to larger bodies of water or streams are the first two criteria for determining a regulated wetland. If its under the minimum size defined for regulation by the state or local government then it doesn't matter what grows there.
I wasn't attempting to indicate a pecking order of considerations taken into account for the defendable delineation of a wetland.

It is obviously something that is heavily litigated, but in addition to Federal and State level regulations and sanctions, there are local municipal regulations/ordinances as well to consider. (hell, in some places you can't even clear brush/trees until the local Environmentalist conducts a tree survey)
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 11:52 AM   #32
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As Rye Bread has stated, locals laws may apply but here is the states criteria for determining if it is wetland:

In accordance with Part 303, wetlands are regulated if they are any of the following:

  • Connected to one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair.
  • Located within 1,000 feet of one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair.
  • Connected to an inland lake, pond, river, or stream.
  • Located within 500 feet of an inland lake, pond, river or stream.
  • Not connected to one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair, or an inland lake, pond, stream, or river, but are more than 5 acres in size.
  • Not connected to one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair, or an inland lake, pond, stream, or river, and less than 5 acres in size, but the DEQ has determined that these wetlands are essential to the preservation of the state's natural resources and has notified the property owner.
    Size of the wetland is insignificant if you meet any of the first four criteria. Pretty easy to be within 500 feet from an inland lake, pond river or stream in Michigan, but obviously there are many places that don't meet any of these criteria. Just some info!

Last edited by 4x Fanatic; June 23rd, 2008 at 11:57 AM.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 11:54 AM   #33
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Sorry, didn't mean it that way was meant to help clarify for others that just because plants and moisture make it a wet land, doesn't necassarily mean its regulated or protected.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 12:00 PM   #34
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the issue i have with this is you must do everything legal around this area, because they have shut so many great trails down here in the last 2 years. this is my backyard and i am there every week.bringing a bunch of people around here that are new wheelers and going on iffy trails is not cool. shows them the wrong way. just watch what you do and make sure it is legal.
welcome to the e thugs...everyone is a badass until they meet you in person..dont let it bother you.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 12:02 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
(hell, in some places you can't even clear brush/trees until the local Environmentalist conducts a tree survey)
Pretty much every time I cut down a tree for construction, local ordnances requires us to plant two mature trees as replacement. That and many other things like donating/building a local park, etc.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 12:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 4x Fanatic View Post
As Rye Bread has stated, locals laws may apply but here is the states criteria for determining if it is wetland:


In accordance with Part 303, wetlands are regulated if they are any of the following:

  • Connected to one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair.
  • Located within 1,000 feet of one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair.
  • Connected to an inland lake, pond, river, or stream.
  • Located within 500 feet of an inland lake, pond, river or stream.
  • Not connected to one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair, or an inland lake, pond, stream, or river, but are more than 5 acres in size.
  • Not connected to one of the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair, or an inland lake, pond, stream, or river, and less than 5 acres in size, but the DEQ has determined that these wetlands are essential to the preservation of the state's natural resources and has notified the property owner.
    Size of the wetland is insignificant if you meet any of the first four criteria. Pretty easy to be within 500 feet from an inland lake, pond river or stream in Michigan, but obviously there are many places that don't meet any of these criteria. Just some info!
the greater than 5 acres was my point, but also many communities I work with have stricter regulations that go down to even 1 acre.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 12:15 PM   #37
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I like seeing people change their oil in streams and rivers.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 10:49 PM   #38
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Just to show you how rules can be bent and twisted to say exactly what those in power want them to say:
The Mounds used to be a full blown gravel pit. There wasn't a cattail in sight. Leave it sit dormant for 20 years and guess what, instant wetland. In the court hearing the residents started to close the place, they claimed that the facility was a wetland. Guess what? They prevailed. Just drive around that place and look at all the fences around wet areas, some as small as 200 sq. ft. The determining factor was they were connected to the Butternut Creek just to the west of the place.
Another one that come to mind is Silver Lake Sand Dunes. There's a little wet area just west of the drag strip. Dip a tire into that wet area and your find yourself in Court in violation of wetlands trespass. The DNR like to sit hidden near that area and nab you when you least expect it.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 11:40 PM   #39
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I tend to agree with the original poster. I think we've gone overboard with accusing everyone that has gotten a tire muddy of illegal wheeling. Just about everyone who has done any wheeling in Michigan has at some point gone somewhere illegal. They may not have known it was illegal.

It's getting so that unless you have a GPS track, plat map, and signed and notarized letter from the land owner and the state of Michigan verifying that you had permission to be in that location of the said property people will still accuse you of illegal wheeling.

This is part of the reason I rarely take, much less post pictures of 4 wheeling trips anymore.
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Old June 24th, 2008, 01:35 AM   #40
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btw....even a fire road can be considered wetland if it is flooded enough and there are certain plants growing right out of the road. Fortunately, even the DNR is nice enough to realize that good smart people may not even realize driving down a road may be illegal.



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