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Old June 22nd, 2008, 10:49 PM   #1
Foamer
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Why do some people on here automatically think you are illegally wheeling if mud?



I dont get it. Why not get the facts first before calling someone a jackass that is ruining the 4x4 opportunities? Just because the is mud, or weeds does not automatically make it illegal. you have private property, etc.

Hell, I even dodged wild lupines on a legal and open trail this weekend. Yes, I went like 2 feet off the trail, but I did not run over the Lupines that the state is working so hard to protect.

It just pisses me off that when someone posts pictures online of people in mud, or weeds, they automatically assume you are breaking the law.
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 10:52 PM   #2
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by going 2' off the trail, you are illegally wheeling.
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 10:52 PM   #3
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Private property does not exclude you from wetlands laws. I think that this is a big misconception on this forum.
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 10:56 PM   #4
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I dont get it. Why not get the facts first before calling someone a jackass that is ruining the 4x4 opportunities? Just because the is mud, or weeds does not automatically make it illegal. you have private property, etc.

Hell, I even dodged wild lupines on a legal and open trail this weekend. Yes, I went like 2 feet off the trail, but I did not run over the Lupines that the state is working so hard to protect.

It just pisses me off that when someone posts pictures online of people in mud, or weeds, they automatically assume you are breaking the law.
I'll give you at least two reasons,
1. Environmental laws apply to both public as well as private land. If you don't think so, try to build or fill in a little swampy area on your property to put a driveway in.....I did, the DEQ stopped me cold.
2. Any picture posted can and will ALWAYS be taken out of context and used against us by some eco-extremist green group.

jim-kb8ymf
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 11:01 PM   #5
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If the area was questionable or you think you'll get crap over it, don't post it.

There's alot of people on here that jump to conclusion and stuff, it's just not worth the . If the people of our own offroad community are getting upset and talking about, just imagine what the people what are trying to shut down the trails see. It's just not worth posting if it's not legal.

We've all wheeled in grey areas at some point, no necessairly with pride, but it's happened. Just keep the pics on your computer and you won't have a problem.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 06:28 AM   #6
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Let me ask YOU a question in return. Why do you feel the need to antagonize and/ or scrutinize the people who work the hardest to ensure that you have the priviledge (NOT the right, don't kid yourself) to wheel anywhere? Most of the people who scrutinize the pictures of wheeling and try to determine legality are the ones who fight the hardest to keep wheeling legal in Michigan, by actively participating in the political side of things.

We get truly offended and upset when we see pictures of someone doing something stupid in a 4x4 vehicle, because we know full well that we're going to have to answer for that, come the next comittee meeting, whether we condone the activity or not.

The reason we "assume" that the pictures are taken illegally is due to past experiences. Nine times out of ten, some jackass would come along with a "LOL GUYS LOOK WUT I DID THIS WKEND" post and would have pictures that literally set us back YEARS worth of progress with both the conservationist groups and the DNR. So now, whenever we see Johnny Buttcheeks hanging out of his lifted CJ, flinging mud, we just assume he's doing so illegally.

How can you prevent this assumption? Easy. Either keep the pictures to yourself, if wheeled on questionable property. OR Clearly state that you were wheeling on private property with the land owners direct permission. "I know a guy who knows a guy who said the owner is cool with it" does NOT constitute direct consent, and is actually just as illegal as not even asking.

This concludes "Covering Your Ass 101". Please see your instructor for your final grade.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 06:48 AM   #7
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Let me ask YOU a question in return. Why do you feel the need to antagonize and/ or scrutinize the people who work the hardest to ensure that you have the priviledge (NOT the right, don't kid yourself) to wheel anywhere? Most of the people who scrutinize the pictures of wheeling and try to determine legality are the ones who fight the hardest to keep wheeling legal in Michigan, by actively participating in the political side of things.

We get truly offended and upset when we see pictures of someone doing something stupid in a 4x4 vehicle, because we know full well that we're going to have to answer for that, come the next comittee meeting, whether we condone the activity or not.

The reason we "assume" that the pictures are taken illegally is due to past experiences. Nine times out of ten, some jackass would come along with a "LOL GUYS LOOK WUT I DID THIS WKEND" post and would have pictures that literally set us back YEARS worth of progress with both the conservationist groups and the DNR. So now, whenever we see Johnny Buttcheeks hanging out of his lifted CJ, flinging mud, we just assume he's doing so illegally.

How can you prevent this assumption? Easy. Either keep the pictures to yourself, if wheeled on questionable property. OR Clearly state that you were wheeling on private property with the land owners direct permission. "I know a guy who knows a guy who said the owner is cool with it" does NOT constitute direct consent, and is actually just as illegal as not even asking.

This concludes "Covering Your Ass 101". Please see your instructor for your final grade.
what he said. i regularly run over tree's, baby animals, and every cattail in sight when i wheel, but i dont post pics to brag about it.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by FlatFender View Post
by going 2' off the trail, you are illegally wheeling.
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I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:13 AM   #9
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The question I have is why do people need to post pictures that can be construed as illegal wheeling?

Post pictures that are obviously legal wheeling, or clearly state they are on private property with the owners permission. Even if it is on private property they should not post pictures of damaging anything that even LOOKS like wetlands, because the people who don't like off-highway vehicles will use the pictures out of context.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:21 AM   #10
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because mud sucks
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:22 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JEEPR View Post
The question I have is why do people need to post pictures that can be construed as illegal wheeling?

Post pictures that are obviously legal wheeling, or clearly state they are on private property with the owners permission. Even if it is on private property they should not post pictures of damaging anything that even LOOKS like wetlands, because the people who don't like off-highway vehicles will use the pictures out of context.
So posting pictures of a legally killed deer would be assumed to be poached unless stated otherwise?

This is Michigan.
That land need to be preserved for the next WalMart-Super Meijer-tract home neighborhood-Megafactory.

It's legal unless proven otherwise.

Note: The below pic portrays legal wheeling (maybe)
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:28 AM   #12
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years ago I dated a girl who's sister was married to a farmer. they had an insane amount of land and would let us go mudding in certain non crop areas and on the field access roads in the fall and spring. This was private land and the owner would often be with us. normally we would do this at night. despite the fact the owner was with us we would be harassed by the cops upon leaving who saw the headlights out in the field and wanted to make a bust. the thing is the access roads were gated and locked so it's not like anyone could just go back there unauthorized.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:32 AM   #13
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I can see where foamer is coming from. What gets me is that most of the guys harpin are just as guilty as wheelin "gray" areas as the rest of us. We have all been on organized trail runs on marked trails or forest roads where there are mud holes, flooded roads etc. what difference does it make if you go through it once and be on your way and the other 10-15 or however many other rigs are on the run go through,all the while tearing it up, or if one vehicle goes back to "play". Alot of guys will try a hole in two wheel drive just to try and "prove" their rig is more capable than another knowing full well that they should be in 4 wheel and can pass with out hinderance.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:34 AM   #14
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So posting pictures of a legally killed deer would be assumed to be poached unless stated otherwise?

This is Michigan.
That land need to be preserved for the next WalMart-Super Meijer-tract home neighborhood-Megafactory.

It's legal unless proven otherwise.


OK...

We are going to compare deer hunting to wheeling?

Are you under the impression that the animal rights people wouldn't use pictures posted by Billybob with his dead deer, his AK-47 and holding a beer against the pro-hunter?

Any idea how much revenue deer hunting contributes to the economy? They have a lot stronger lobbying voice in the capital than wheelers do.

:miff:
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:37 AM   #15
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Any idea how much revenue deer hunting contributes to the economy? They have a lot stronger lobbying voice in the capital than wheelers do.
perhaps if our trails were open for wheelers to use and revenue to be generated it would be a different story.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:40 AM   #16
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OK...

We are going to compare deer hunting to wheeling?

Are you under the impression that the animal rights people wouldn't use pictures posted by Billybob with his dead deer, his AK-47 and holding a beer against the pro-hunter?

Any idea how much revenue deer hunting contributes to the economy? They have a lot stronger lobbying voice in the capital than wheelers do.

:miff:

Proves an AK-47 has a legitimate sporting purpose, not just an assault weapon.

You will never win the battle by hiding and compromising.
Unless you can prove it is illegal, post them up!!
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 08:19 AM   #17
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You will never win the battle by hiding and compromising.
Unless you can prove it is illegal, post them up!!
I think you really missed the point... We can and do regularly win battles, for example the recent passing of House Bill 4323, along with multiple court precidences and "opinions" that rule in our favor, thanks to favorable evidence. This evidence comes from things like pictures of events, county documents, and even GPS tracks from people who volunteer time to go out and make sure that the DNR maps are accurate. These people are all following the law.

ClarkstonCracker and some of the other guys here have done a great job trying to promote the positive side of wheeling, and that's all we're trying to enforce when we question someone's pictures. We are just trying to see if the hard work that's put into fighting to keep the trails open still counts for something positive, rather than as retribution for someone posting a 'maybe' legal picture.

I'm issuing you a challenge... attend a Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Assoc. quarterly meeting. We've got one coming up fairly quick here (click my sig link to get the details). I think you'll be really surprised to find out just how much work these guys all put into keeping our trails and lands open. When you see the amount of dedication and determination that the members have, maybe you'll understand why we all take it so personally.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 08:29 AM   #18
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Private property does not exclude you from wetlands laws. I think that this is a big misconception on this forum.
there are very strict definitions of wetlands as well. Simply cause something is wet, or even flooded does not in and of itself make it a protected wetland.

considerations include:
• soil type
• vegetation types
• frequency of water saturation, etc.

for more reading look here: www.deq.state.mi.us/documents/deq-water-wetlands-chap3.pdf

armchair quarterbacks, looking at online photographs does not a wetland delineation make...
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 08:40 AM   #19
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Proves an AK-47 has a legitimate sporting purpose, not just an assault weapon.
I consider assault with an AK to be quite sporting, as those things suck so much that the target has a high chance of escaping unscathed...



...and killing the shooter.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 08:52 AM   #20
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there are very strict definitions of wetlands as well. Simply cause something is wet, or even flooded does not in and of itself make it a protected wetland.

considerations include:
• soil type
• vegetation types
• frequency of water saturation, etc.

for more reading look here: www.deq.state.mi.us/documents/deq-water-wetlands-chap3.pdf

armchair quarterbacks, looking at online photographs does not a wetland delineation make...
Err, like Iowa?

Michigan is a swamp. Always has been, always will be.

The problem is our represenetives/peers in government. If they don't fish, hunt, shoot, off road, bike, camp and work for a living, how can they represent those of us who do?
They see a golf course, I see the waste of a perfectly good shooting range.

fastrt6dakota, I am on your side. I didn't think we would ever see mountain bikes on the tahoe rim trail. One of the biggest impetus was the horse people. They were afraid the bike would scare the horses. And horse people have money. But they took the fight to them and won.
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