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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:20 PM   #21
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i vote toes for president
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:26 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Niteowl View Post
The war is still #1 with me and I'll support whoever brings us home the quickest.

If it is #1 with you.....then you would support it 100%....think about it...bring the troops home(thats what the insurgents want) all the lives given and money spent was totally without warrant then....and the next thing that happens??(Iraq collapses from the inside out)......attacks and mayhem right here on our soil again,is that what you want? then vote for the man.....if not....vote McCain .....do you not realize that Obama could very well be the straw that breaks the camels back???

AGAIN, The war is over. The country is in complete shit. Nothing will change unless we demolish it or pull out, let them have their civil war or whatever else happens and let them evolve themselves. My prediction is the Iraqi police will turn on the Iraqi army, the IA's will fukc everything up then end up collapsing and the people will take over their country like it should be. 98% of the people there don't want us in their country anymore, are 98% of the people there terrorists? No. We've already unnecessarily lost 4,000+ lives after 9/11 due to piss poor planning, leadership, and policy. There's always a chance of domestic terrorism. It will never go away. Apparently you don't remember the unabomber or the Oklahoma city bombing which were carried out by white men. How are we any safer right now while in midst of war than if we weren't. In Iraq, we are just holding back their freedoms and ways of life.

I bet you don't even know why we invaded Iraq.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:34 PM   #23
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Say what you want but... I support Obama. I'm a social worker, so it kind of fits with my typical train of thought.

Here's the problem with a debate on a forum like this.
1. there's always the dumbass comments who don't have a clue what their talking about.
2. People tend to listen to only what they want to hear. So if you're a McCain support, you prolly listen to conservative news. If you're an Obama supporter, you prolly listen to liberal news. Each one has their spin on it and even if you do choose to listen to the other, you think. That's a load of crap, half truths, etc. etc.

It's tough to be objective and to find news that's objective, and information that's objective.

I'm sure you can find just as many errors in either candidates beliefs....
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by sodapop View Post
Say what you want but... I support Obama. I'm a social worker, so it kind of fits with my typical train of thought.

Here's the problem with a debate on a forum like this.
1. there's always the dumbass comments who don't have a clue what their talking about.
2. People tend to listen to only what they want to hear. So if you're a McCain support, you prolly listen to conservative news. If you're an Obama supporter, you prolly listen to liberal news. Each one has their spin on it and even if you do choose to listen to the other, you think. That's a load of crap, half truths, etc. etc.

It's tough to be objective and to find news that's objective, and information that's objective.

I'm sure you can find just as many errors in either candidates beliefs....
I nominate this for post of the day
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodapop View Post
Say what you want but... I support Obama. I'm a social worker, so it kind of fits with my typical train of thought.

Here's the problem with a debate on a forum like this.
1. there's always the dumbass comments who don't have a clue what their talking about.
2. People tend to listen to only what they want to hear. So if you're a McCain support, you prolly listen to conservative news. If you're an Obama supporter, you prolly listen to liberal news. Each one has their spin on it and even if you do choose to listen to the other, you think. That's a load of crap, half truths, etc. etc.

It's tough to be objective and to find news that's objective, and information that's objective.

I'm sure you can find just as many errors in either candidates beliefs....
thanks captain obvious your speech touched both my heart and genitals. NADER IN 08!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
Good answer I think Osama Bin Laden would send us home the fastest.

You support him ?

Look at what Obama has been supporting for 20 years at the church he has attended.

Now for public opinion he say's he quits that church because for the past 20 years he didn't really believe what was being preached. Come on

Also he has not put up a single plan. If you read and listen to what he say's it sound like a Miss America pagent when the girls get up there and say shit like I want world peace and everbody to get along.

Put them in as president at least they look good.

Whats Obamas definition of affordable health care. Read his site it's making the huge insurance companies bigger and richer.

He has never addressed health care just insurance.

If what you say is true you should be supporting Ron Paul. He's the only person who has says how he will do the things that need to be done

#1 Your comparison about Osama Bin Laden makes no sense what so ever.
#2 A man can have his own conscious and ideas. I grew up Presbyterian and I am leary to any religion, even my own.
#3. He quit because people like you take things out of context.
#4. You have no research to even say that.
#5. I'm indifferent about this subject, but I think health care should generally be available to everyone.
#6. ??
#7. I love Ron Paul, but I'm against him taking away federal student loans and certain forms of aide that help people like me do things that I otherwise wouldn't be able to.



p.s. go wings!
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
Good answer I think Osama Bin Laden would send us home the fastest.

You support him ?

Look at what Obama has been supporting for 20 years at the church he has attended.

Now for public opinion he say's he quits that church because for the past 20 years he didn't really believe what was being preached. Come on

OH MY GOD. I just realized that Obama rhymes with Osama!!! they must have the same views!!!1!! and Obama's middle name is Saddam! He also must have supported Saddam Hussein!!!!!111!!


WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP THE PREACHER?

I go over to my friend's house regularly, He lives in a house owned by his church, and is very religious. Does that mean that I am a christian?
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodapop View Post
Say what you want but... I support Obama. I'm a social worker, so it kind of fits with my typical train of thought.

Here's the problem with a debate on a forum like this.
1. there's always the dumbass comments who don't have a clue what their talking about.
2. People tend to listen to only what they want to hear. So if you're a McCain support, you prolly listen to conservative news. If you're an Obama supporter, you prolly listen to liberal news. Each one has their spin on it and even if you do choose to listen to the other, you think. That's a load of crap, half truths, etc. etc.

It's tough to be objective and to find news that's objective, and information that's objective.

I'm sure you can find just as many errors in either candidates beliefs....
I agree about the news, and objectivity.

Recently the have almost made me forget that there is another person running in the Democratic primary, or that there is a second major party that will be competing for the presidency. (remember the Republicans)

Read Obamas website and find any actual plans for change. There isn't any.

Keep in mind to say we need to leave Iraq is not a plan.

To say the economy is a mess is not a plan.

To say I don't like George Bush is not a plan, and someone should tell him Bush is not running.

What scares me about support for a candidate is that most people don't listen to what they say.

Granholm is doing exactly what she said she would, but people didn't listen.

You said he fit's with your typical train of thought, what might that be ?
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:48 PM   #29
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McCain:
He may have been part of getting us into all this crap thats going on BUT, I do not beleive someone with little to know real knolage of what all the issues are realy about could go in and do much in the first 4 years. and if they cant , they sure wont be reElected and we will be starting all over again and in worse shape. He is not who I realy wanted or would want but He is the only qualified choice at this time, For what is on the plate in the govermentle Kitchen!! IMO It may not be yours but we need experiance now verces a younger Change.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:52 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1likesme View Post
OH MY GOD. I just realized that Obama rhymes with Osama!!! they must have the same views!!!1!! and Obama's middle name is Saddam! He also must have supported Saddam Hussein!!!!!111!!


WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP THE PREACHER?

I go over to my friend's house regularly, He lives in a house owned by his church, and is very religious. Does that mean that I am a christian?
If you go to your friends house for 20 years and then say he really wasn't your friend for that 20 years you might be getting closer to a legitimate comparison, or should I say inconsistancy.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 07:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by jeepme View Post
#1 Your comparison about Osama Bin Laden makes no sense what so ever.
#2 A man can have his own conscious and ideas. I grew up Presbyterian and I am leary to any religion, even my own.
#3. He quit because people like you take things out of context.
#4. You have no research to even say that.
#5. I'm indifferent about this subject, but I think health care should generally be available to everyone.
#6. ??
#7. I love Ron Paul, but I'm against him taking away federal student loans and certain forms of aide that help people like me do things that I otherwise wouldn't be able to.



p.s. go wings!
I didn't make a comparison I said If Bin Laden would get us out quicker would you support him. You didn't answer

2 and 3 Obama is now saying that he dosen't agree with his ideals of the last 20 years. He would have impressed me more if he wouldn't have played the politician and sold out on his beliefs.

that shows me he will sell out.

Read Obamas website.

Healthcare is not insurance, but your indifferent to this so you will believe any bullshit he throws at you.

If you like Ron Paul do some reserch and you will find he has specific plans to ensure you won't be screwed out of anything we will just quit wasting and throwing away the 50 plus percent of the money we do now.

Imagine this if we don't raise a single tax and quit throwing away 50 percent of the government revenue we would have 100% more money to use.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 07:20 PM   #32
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If you go to your friends house for 20 years and then say he really wasn't your friend for that 20 years you might be getting closer to a legitimate comparison, or should I say inconsistancy.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 08:57 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by sodapop View Post
Say what you want but... I support Obama. I'm a social worker, so it kind of fits with my typical train of thought.

Here's the problem with a debate on a forum like this.
1. there's always the dumbass comments who don't have a clue what their talking about.
2. People tend to listen to only what they want to hear. So if you're a McCain support, you prolly listen to conservative news. If you're an Obama supporter, you prolly listen to liberal news. Each one has their spin on it and even if you do choose to listen to the other, you think. That's a load of crap, half truths, etc. etc.

It's tough to be objective and to find news that's objective, and information that's objective.

I'm sure you can find just as many errors in either candidates beliefs....
I listen to both liberal and conservative news to see what is going on. I rarely agree with the liberal news media. I VERY much dislike McCain though. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

The deal breaker on McCain is he believes that we created and can stop global warming. Anyone stupid enough to believe that should not be president.

I will probably vote libertarian.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 11:21 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
I didn't make a comparison I said If Bin Laden would get us out quicker would you support him. You didn't answer

2 and 3 Obama is now saying that he dosen't agree with his ideals of the last 20 years. He would have impressed me more if he wouldn't have played the politician and sold out on his beliefs.

that shows me he will sell out.

Read Obamas website.

Healthcare is not insurance, but your indifferent to this so you will believe any bullshit he throws at you.

If you like Ron Paul do some reserch and you will find he has specific plans to ensure you won't be screwed out of anything we will just quit wasting and throwing away the 50 plus percent of the money we do now.

Imagine this if we don't raise a single tax and quit throwing away 50 percent of the government revenue we would have 100% more money to use.


Here's a newsflash, Ron Paul isn't going to win unless McCain steps down.
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 12:58 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
I agree about the news, and objectivity.

Recently the have almost made me forget that there is another person running in the Democratic primary, or that there is a second major party that will be competing for the presidency. (remember the Republicans)

Read Obamas website and find any actual plans for change. There isn't any.
Seriously, all I see are plans. I don't mean this as a bash so please don't take it that way, but you not seeing any plans by Obama to me would be a good example of hearing/reading what you want to hear...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
Keep in mind to say we need to leave Iraq is not a plan.
Lets take this one issue for now - Iraq: I'm taking this information from their respective websites and I will do my best not to color it with my opinions in this section. (some info is copied and pasted directly from sites.)
Barack Obama's Plan:
- Immediate Removal of troops at 1-2 brigades a month, all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months
- No permanent bases in Iraq
- Some troops to protect the embassy and Diplomats and some if Al Qaeda tries to build a base.
- press Iraq’s leaders to take responsibility for their future by engaging representatives to seek a new accord on Iraq’s Constitution and governance.
- Aggressive speak with Iraq and it's neighbors to reach a new compact on the stability of Iraq and the Middle East
- Provide monies to help Iraqi refugees

John McCain's Plan:
- Troops remain, strongly disagrees with those who advocate withdrawing American troops before the Government of Iraq is able to take care of itself and it's people. feels if we left, we'll have to return to finish anyway
- Support elections for provincial governments (2008) and national government (2009). McCain believes these elections are essential and that our troops must be there to support the elections.
- Support Iraqi Economy to try and reduce the chance that young men and women will decide to join extremist groups. He feels Iraq should use budget surplus monies to employ workers in infrastructure projects etc.
- The international community should bolster proven microfinance programs to spur local-level entrepreneurship throughout the country.
- Call for International Pressure on Syria and Iran: The international community must apply real pressure to Syria and Iran to change their behavior. US must also bolster its regional military posture to how we're serious.
- Be serious and candid with Americans about the risks that the war has and the risk he feels there would be if we withdraw.
- Not keep the troops in Iraq a minute longer than necessary for Iraq to be able to stand on it's on 2 feet.


Now for my opinionated part (perhaps this is the part where I hear what I want to hear . . . ):
I do not feel that there will ever be a winning scenario in Iraq. The middle east has been marred for years in political and religious unrest. I do not think a forceful military solution will solve this problem. Therefore, I think we screwed up royally. Our original intent was to go and get Osama Bin Laden, are we even still trying to do that? (sarcasm). But seriously, I don't think this is our fight. We are trying to push our values onto another society which can be very tricky, especially if parts of that society don't want them. Do I think we need to address terrorism? Absolutely, but I'm not sure what the best way to do it is and I'm definitely not convinced this is the way.

So that brings me to the candidates. I think we should get out of Iraq, so I am for Barack on this issue. Regardless of that, I like how he very specifically lays out his plan for troop withdrawal while still addressing the issues politically.

When I read John McCain's page, I don't even see a plan about how he plans to do the things he wants to do, other than leave troops there and then he doesn't even discuss troop levels. For one, does Iraq even have a budget surplus to hire people? How does he plan to get the "international community" to bolster the economy? How is he going to get the international community to exert pressure on Syria and Iran other than to show everyone how powerful our military is. The big questions is when will the Iraq government be stable enough to support themselves? What will be our barometer to measure their success? He talks a little about this (ie. basic services etc) but not in any real detail. Basically the way I see McCain's Plan is that there is no Troop withdrawal plan or that it won't be made until after we fix their issues which is who knows when. More importantly on this issue, he doesn't (at least in the Iraq section of his web page that I noticed) even address how we are going to continue to support the troops in Iraq, let alone talk about the economics of it. If his plan is to stay, they his plan should really address that in my opinion.


So you ask about my train of thought and there's a little insight into it. If it wasn't almost 2am I might do some more, but I've got to get up early.
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 01:14 AM   #36
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i support a small government. that is all.
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America! Fuck yeah!
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 01:44 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepme View Post
#1 Your comparison about Osama Bin Laden makes no sense what so ever.
#2 A man can have his own conscious and ideas. I grew up Presbyterian and I am leary to any religion, even my own.
#3. He quit because people like you take things out of context.
#4. You have no research to even say that.
#5. I'm indifferent about this subject, but I think health care should generally be available to everyone.
#6. ??
#7. I love Ron Paul, but I'm against him taking away federal student loans and certain forms of aide that help people like me do things that I otherwise wouldn't be able to.



p.s. go wings!
This is the weakest argument to combat what toes just said. Especially number 3: He quit because people like you take things out of context?

Let me get this straight, when a pastor is saying hateful things about white people within in his church, how are we suppose to take that out of context? O and i believe the correct terms his 'former' reverend used were:

"God Damn America" and "Europeans fit the mold"...... well watch for yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdJB-qkfUHc


If your indifferent to health care then.... don't ruin it for the rest of us and vote for someone that does want to nationalize it.

RON PAUL 2008.
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 07:12 AM   #38
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I still fail to see where these words come out of Obama's mouth. At least he's not singing 'bomba-iran' and that Vlad. Putin is the president of GERMANY. Oh, not to mention that McCain's preacher / pastor / religious leader is just as bad saying that God used the nazis to hunt the jews. I don't hold McCain to that. I'll quit the military if McCain gets elected.
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 08:08 AM   #39
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RON PAUL 2008.
Are you going to write him in on the ballot?
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 08:13 AM   #40
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This is why Obama sucks.
Quote:
# Create a Living Wage: Obama will raise the minimum wage and index it to inflation to make sure that full-time workers can earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs such as food, transportation, and housing.
# Provide Tax Relief: Obama will provide all low and middle-income workers a $500 Making Work Pay tax credit to offset the payroll tax those workers pay in every paycheck. Obama will also eliminate taxes for seniors making under $50,000 per year.
Quote:
PROTECTING GUN RIGHTS
Respect the Second Amendment: Millions of hunters own and use guns each year. Millions more participate
in a variety of shooting sports such as sporting clays, skeet, target and trap shooting that may not necessarily
involve hunting. As a former constitutional law professor, Barack Obama believes the Second Amendment
creates an individual right, and he greatly respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms. He will
protect the rights of hunters and other law-abiding Americans to purchase, own, transport, and use guns for the
purposes of hunting and target shooting. He also believes that the right is subject to reasonable and
commonsense regulation.
Notice it has nothing to do with personal protection, or the ability of citizens to overthrow a corrupt government.
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