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Old April 12th, 2006, 06:52 AM   #1
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Default Would you like more legal wheeling in Michigan?

I know I would!

If you answered YES, then we need your help!

I have witnessed some "infighting" within the crowd on the site and abroad.

WE CAN NOT AFFORD THIS!
We are all wheelers.

WE MUST UNITE AND BECOME BETTER ORGANIZED!

There are opportunites opening up that haven't been there before.
The time is Ripe . . .

If you don't already belong: JOIN A CLUB.

If you do already belong: Stand up and ask what you can do to help.

If you only have 5 minutes a week free time -- give that 5 minutes to the cause!

The biggest thing I think we can do to help our hobby is to BE POLITE.
We CAN NOT afford any ill feelings either between us or with the public.
We need to be building bridges, not tearing down fences. Those fences just might have to be mended later. That would mean that energy had to be spent twice: once tearing it down and once mending it again.

That's TWO opportunities lost that could have been used to FURTHER the sport instead.

PLEASE, help don't hurt.


Just my 2 cents . . .

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; April 12th, 2006 at 07:00 AM.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 07:16 AM   #2
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Well Said!
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Old April 12th, 2006, 07:26 AM   #3
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What are you trying to say? That every trail conservationalist should move together, and fight under one name? WHY HAS IT TAKEN THIS LONG FOR THIS TO BE REALIZED?

Being way into politics, I kind of know how lobbyist groups work. And no michigan based club I have came across has shown they have the knowledge, and or funding to really do anything for the "wheeler"

I have yet to see a club or group do anything to help open any trail in michigan. And I have not even seen any proof of a club retarding the closure of any trails.

Basically the DNR runs rampant, and nobody has put up a fight.

I would LOVE to see proof of ANYTHING that a local club has done to help offroading in michigan..

Hopefully you will not take this the wrong way, I am just really interested in the subject. And I hope I am proved wrong.

That is why I have never persuded joining any "save the trails" club. I have a great understanding of how the government works, and without a bigger voice, you will get nowhere. I have approached different "save the trails" clubs to join here. MTC wants to move here, and I just have to figure out how to do it in a very respectable manner. One of these clubs needs to step out, and show they have some power.. But unfortunetly, the two clubs I know of just post about their issues, and have never actually done anything for anyone.

I do everything I can possibly to do give 4x4 people a good name, such as trail cleanups, and respecting offroad areas.


again, I HOPE NOBODY TAKES THIS THE WRONG WAY, and I am IN ABSOLUTELY NO WAY against any trail conservation group. What they *try* to do is awesome, they just need more might.

For instance, most groups like this are allocated $2,000.00 per year from the state for their campaigns.. I'm guessing they have never looked into this.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 08:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
What are you trying to say? That every trail conservationalist should move together, and fight under one name? WHY HAS IT TAKEN THIS LONG FOR THIS TO BE REALIZED?

I have yet to see a club or group do anything to help open any trail in michigan. And I have not even seen any proof of a club retarding the closure of any trails.

I would LOVE to see proof of ANYTHING that a local club has done to help offroading in michigan..
We were successful keeping the Sullivan Twp park open to motorized recreation (of all types) for an additional 3 years beyond when the Twp. was originally going to close it. We did so through the Trail Clean Up program. The Township Supervisor still thinks HIGHLY of our organization as a result.

I can offer "proof". If you'd like more info, PM me.

No offense taken. We've been losing ground for a long time and it has us ALL down. But just because we're losing doesn't mean that we should give up and not try either. Success can come at the local level too. We have had successes in FOUR local townships, and with TWO County Road Commissions.

Let's not forget about "State v. Farley" either!
I've heard that the JUDGE said if it's legal to go DOWN, then it's legal to go UP.

You sound like you have some GREAT insight into the system.
Would you be willing to teach, guide, or participate?
I'd be interested in hearing more from your perspective.
I would also be interested in trying to get some willing wheelers to help track down the details of how to accomplish the "higher in the process" reforms.

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; April 13th, 2006 at 01:26 PM.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 08:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
What are you trying to say? That every trail conservationalist should move together, and fight under one name? WHY HAS IT TAKEN THIS LONG FOR THIS TO BE REALIZED?

Being way into politics, I kind of know how lobbyist groups work. And no michigan based club I have came across has shown they have the knowledge, and or funding to really do anything for the "wheeler"

I have yet to see a club or group do anything to help open any trail in michigan. And I have not even seen any proof of a club retarding the closure of any trails.

Basically the DNR runs rampant, and nobody has put up a fight.

I would LOVE to see proof of ANYTHING that a local club has done to help offroading in michigan..

Hopefully you will not take this the wrong way, I am just really interested in the subject. And I hope I am proved wrong.

That is why I have never persuded joining any "save the trails" club. I have a great understanding of how the government works, and without a bigger voice, you will get nowhere. I have approached different "save the trails" clubs to join here. MTC wants to move here, and I just have to figure out how to do it in a very respectable manner. One of these clubs needs to step out, and show they have some power.. But unfortunetly, the two clubs I know of just post about their issues, and have never actually done anything for anyone.

I do everything I can possibly to do give 4x4 people a good name, such as trail cleanups, and respecting offroad areas.


again, I HOPE NOBODY TAKES THIS THE WRONG WAY, and I am IN ABSOLUTELY NO WAY against any trail conservation group. What they *try* to do is awesome, they just need more might.

For instance, most groups like this are allocated $2,000.00 per year from the state for their campaigns.. I'm guessing they have never looked into this.
I'll let Trail Fanatic respond as he knows what is actually going on....BUT, our club is well on the way to getting more trails opened by working WITH the DNR (at least locally). Riding repsonsibly, sponsering trail clean-ups, mapping trails, etc. All of this is appreciated by them and gives us more opportunity to trail.


EDIT: WOOPS....trail fanatic and I must have been posting at the same time and he beat me to the punch...just read his up above and ignore me as usual.

Last edited by MozMan68; April 12th, 2006 at 10:00 AM.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 08:20 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
We sucessfully kept the Sullivan Twp park open to motorized recreation of all types for an additional 3 years beyond when the Twp. was originally going to close it. We did so through the Trail Clean Up program. The Township Supervisor still thinks HIGHLY of our organization as a result.

I can offer "proof". If you'd like more info PM me.

No offense taken. We've been losing ground for a long time and it has us ALL down. But just because we're losing doesn't mean that we should give up and not try either. Sucess can come at the local level too. We have had successes in FOUR local townships, and with TWO County Road Commisions.

Lets not forget about "State v. Farley" either!
The JUDGE said that if it's legal to go DOWN, then it's legal to go UP.

You sound like you have some GREAT insight into the system.
Would you be willing to teach, guide, or participate?
I'd be interested in hearing more from your perspective.
I would also be interested in trying to get some willing wheelers to help track down the details of how to accomplish the "higher in the process" reforms.

I wasn't looking for physically proof, just someone saying that they have saved a trail, or of the such.

I am in no way enough educated in this subject to teach anybody anything. I can however provide alot of insight on how to become friends with congressmen/woman.

A quick rundown of how government works:

Candidate wants to be elected

Candidate adjusts his campaign to appeal to the most possible voters without crossing party lines (ie, abortion, enviroment, welfare)

Candidate will address issues if said candidate believes it will earn more votes.
-----

Now that that quick summary is done, what you have to do is express to candidates that you have two things: A large group of a voting body, and financial support.

If you show a candidate that you have votes, and that you have money (even $100 from a club will get you noticed) you will make a friend.

If he/she agrees with your thoughts, then he will be more then happy to bring to legislation any ideas or bills you have.

If he/she does not do that, simply call him every day and ask him why. ALot of people do not realize that your representative/senator is there to WORK FOR YOU.

You can call these people, and talk to them. You can go out to dinner with them.

What has to happen is conservational clubs MUST MAKE FRIENDS with people in high places.

You have to play dirty... You have to call the newspapers when you go to do a trail cleanup, you have to call the television stations when you are bringing out 10 couches from that trail cleanup, you have to call your senator and tell him its bullshit that you can't drive in the mud at silverlake.


I have seen non of the requirements being done for any michigan based offroad club. But then again, I have not looked constantly.. With everyone united, and with someone who knows what he is doing in charge, this new club, or modification of an existing one would quickly have a voice.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 08:43 AM   #7
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I've shown my side to this discussion a few times.

All I can say is.
1. Participate in trail cleanups if you can. Even if it doesn't keep the trail open, it keeps the trails clean.

2. Don't wheel illegally.

3. Don't wheel like a tard in legal areas.

4. Our image is poor. We need to be over the top on the trail, or on the street to change that image. Be courteous to other drivers... Don't hit that old lady on the side of the road even if you want to.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 09:01 AM   #8
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And don't drive stupid on the road in a lifted vehicle... especially something like rolling it. :tonka:

OK, not a personal attack at Franks and Beans, just a friendly poke..

But, it is the kind of thing that people see: Oh, look, that guy in that big lifted Jeep (and people seem to think anything lifted is 'huge').. he's driving like a maniac. Oh, see, he rolled his Jeep. Those things are so unsafe, they roll over all the time... etc, etc, etc..


Its image.


I'll say this: Whenever I see a person on a sport bike, I think: he's an asshole. Why? Because it seems like every sport bike rider i've seen is driving like an asshole. Are they ALL assholes? Probably not. But its perception.

We have enough work to overcome the rednecks with 35s on their 90s chevys riding people ass in traffic. Was behind a TJ on 35s (with the obligatory smittybilt tube bumpers and a light bar) riding ride on everyone to get out of their way.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 09:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
I know I would!

If you answered YES, then we need your help!

I have witnessed some "infighting" within the crowd on the site and abroad.

WE CAN NOT AFFORD THIS!
We are all wheelers.

WE MUST UNITE AND BECOME BETTER ORGANIZED!

There are opportunites opening up that haven't been there before.
The time is Ripe . . .

If you don't already belong: JOIN A CLUB.

If you do already belong: Stand up and ask what you can do to help.

If you only have 5 minutes a week free time -- give that 5 minutes to the cause!

The biggest thing I think we can do to help our hobby is to BE POLITE.
We CAN NOT afford any ill feelings either between us or with the public.
We need to be building bridges, not tearing down fences. Those fences just might have to be mended later. That would mean that energy had to be spent twice: once tearing it down and once mending it again.

That's TWO opportunities lost that could have been used to FURTHER the sport instead.

PLEASE, help don't hurt.


Just my 2 cents . . .
Well said Trail_Fanatic!! It sounds like your club is putting alot of GREAT effort on the West Side! Has your club looked into joining Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association?
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Old April 12th, 2006, 09:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
What are you trying to say? That every trail conservationalist should move together, and fight under one name? WHY HAS IT TAKEN THIS LONG FOR THIS TO BE REALIZED?

Being way into politics, I kind of know how lobbyist groups work. And no michigan based club I have came across has shown they have the knowledge, and or funding to really do anything for the "wheeler"

I have yet to see a club or group do anything to help open any trail in michigan. And I have not even seen any proof of a club retarding the closure of any trails.

Basically the DNR runs rampant, and nobody has put up a fight.

I would LOVE to see proof of ANYTHING that a local club has done to help offroading in michigan..

Hopefully you will not take this the wrong way, I am just really interested in the subject. And I hope I am proved wrong.

That is why I have never persuded joining any "save the trails" club. I have a great understanding of how the government works, and without a bigger voice, you will get nowhere. I have approached different "save the trails" clubs to join here. MTC wants to move here, and I just have to figure out how to do it in a very respectable manner. One of these clubs needs to step out, and show they have some power.. But unfortunetly, the two clubs I know of just post about their issues, and have never actually done anything for anyone.

I do everything I can possibly to do give 4x4 people a good name, such as trail cleanups, and respecting offroad areas.


again, I HOPE NOBODY TAKES THIS THE WRONG WAY, and I am IN ABSOLUTELY NO WAY against any trail conservation group. What they *try* to do is awesome, they just need more might.

For instance, most groups like this are allocated $2,000.00 per year from the state for their campaigns.. I'm guessing they have never looked into this.
I don't think anyone will take it the wrong way... but, what do you think GLFWDA and UNFWDA have been trying to do for years?! A single club of 10-15 people "stepping out" isn't gonna get it done, that's why GLFWDA and United were formed... strength in numbers! If you know how lobbyist groups work and are into all the politics, why not join and help out, then you can say "WE" instead of "They"
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Old April 12th, 2006, 10:44 AM   #11
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I totally agree with joining Great Lakes or United. But right now Great Lakes doesn't have the numbers it needs. Look at the snowmobilers and Dirtbike & quad riders. They have the numbers. They have helped to shut down trails on Drummond Island. And I'm not tring to rag on the snowmobilers and dirt bike/quad riders. I'm just saying that they have the larger numbers to help get things done the way they want.

Last edited by Timmy; April 12th, 2006 at 10:47 AM.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 10:50 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateAir
I don't think anyone will take it the wrong way... but, what do you think GLFWDA and UNFWDA have been trying to do for years?! A single club of 10-15 people "stepping out" isn't gonna get it done, that's why GLFWDA and United were formed... strength in numbers! If you know how lobbyist groups work and are into all the politics, why not join and help out, then you can say "WE" instead of "They"
That is my point though. You said "trying to do"

I have never heard of GLFWDA accomplishing anything for this state.. It doesn't matter how strong you are in numbers, if the money and people are not used properly, then it will fall on deaf ears.

And I'm hoping someone will post up what they have done.

Alot of people have asked me join, and told me about "all the great things they have accomplished" yet I have not seen one trail kept open, or any pending legislation brought forward by them.

Like I said, its great if they are doing trail cleanups, etc, but there is so much that could be done.

I was told by someone high up in GLFWDA that gl4x4 is the best thing ever to happen to GLFWDA.. The reason being, people are accidently going there instead of here.

So right there, advertising is a big problem..

If nobody knows about it, how can you help the cause?
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Old April 12th, 2006, 11:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
That is my point though. You said "trying to do"

I have never heard of GLFWDA accomplishing anything for this state.. It doesn't matter how strong you are in numbers, if the money and people are not used properly, then it will fall on deaf ears.

And I'm hoping someone will post up what they have done.

Alot of people have asked me join, and told me about "all the great things they have accomplished" yet I have not seen one trail kept open, or any pending legislation brought forward by them.

Like I said, its great if they are doing trail cleanups, etc, but there is so much that could be done.

I was told by someone high up in GLFWDA that gl4x4 is the best thing ever to happen to GLFWDA.. The reason being, people are accidently going there instead of here.

So right there, advertising is a big problem..

If nobody knows about it, how can you help the cause?
If you know so much, how come you havent put this knowledge to good use and joined a club? Try to make a difference? It seems that someone with your knowledge could be a great lobbiest, but doesnt seem to care enough to join a club, and maybe for the first time, in your eye's, change something for the state as you say. Even if they havent done one single thing to help out, or change, you could always still join, and do your part to change something. Just a punk speakin.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 11:30 AM   #14
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Not tring to push Great Lakes or bash them. But the reason that they haven't been able to get anything done is that there numbers are way to low, I mean in membership. Which there for also brings in lack of funds. I agree that joining a "Club" is a good idea. But 20 different clubs still will not be enough. You need one Assocaition to have a voice and I don't see that happining unless people join together.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 11:31 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMFmike
If you know so much, how come you havent put this knowledge to good use and joined a club? Try to make a difference? It seems that someone with your knowledge could be a great lobbiest, but doesnt seem to care enough to join a club, and maybe for the first time, in your eye's, change something for the state as you say. Even if they havent done one single thing to help out, or change, you could always still join, and do your part to change something. Just a punk speakin.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, I just asked what has been accomplished.

And I'm sure someone from GLFWDA will chime in.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 11:33 AM   #16
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Not Pissing, Just wondering why you cant change things as well? Its like you are counting yourself out for some reason when you seem to know the most on how to warm up to a congress man/woman.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 11:58 AM   #17
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Not Pissing, Just wondering why you cant change things as well? Its like you are counting yourself out for some reason when you seem to know the most on how to warm up to a congress man/woman.

I've offered GLFWDA to host out of this forum which is now averaging over 2200 unique IP address' per day.

It was going to be brought up at the last meeting, and I have yet to hear the outcome.

And I was offering this free of charge, including hosting.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 12:01 PM   #18
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Default Well That opened up a DIALOGUE, eh?

I can't offer as much success as I'd like, YET, because projects are still in the works.

BUT

At this point, EVERY trail is important - even Seasonal and Undeveloped roads in the County systems, right?

I can offer up MILES of these that I have PERSONALLY been responsible for the CRC reopening from illegal closure. ONE MAN CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE ALONE!!! I HAVE!!!
I have called CRCs and obtained CURRENT Certification Maps to verify that the blockages were indeed on various CRC roads, called back and reported them and THEY DO GET CLEARED. Yes, REOPENED to the PUBLIC.

So, it can be done small, it can be done large, high, low, right, and unfortunately wrong, but live and learn and let's at least TRY.

If ANYONE would like to try and is willing to REALLY HELP with the legwork, I'd be interested in putting together a loose knit set of volunteers from everywhere to discuss, learn, educate, and PARTICIPATE.

Just PM me about HELPING and I'll start a contact list.

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Old April 12th, 2006, 12:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker
I've offered GLFWDA to host out of this forum which is now averaging over 2200 unique IP address' per day.

It was going to be brought up at the last meeting, and I have yet to hear the outcome.

And I was offering this free of charge, including hosting.
I was at the last GLFWDA meeting on April 9th. It was never brought up. But the Prez of Great Lakes is a member of our club and I will bring it up. I've been a member od GL for 2 years now and haven't heard of much that they have gotten accomplished. But I don't hear everything.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 12:45 PM   #20
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I am a member of GLFWDA as well as on several other boards. I haven't seen a lot accomplished yet, but I'm fairly new over there. One thing that I really like over there is the posts of new legislation that is before the state. I now get emails from the State Senate when new legislation is being brought up and I look to see if it involves road closures, DNR, wheeling etc. I have written well over 2 dozen letters to congressmen and senators on how I feel about the things being brought up. GLFWDA is doing what they can with the limited resources they have. I think with larger membership and the people that are running it now, they can make a difference in the future.

Roger
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