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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:21 PM   #41
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ok, so you're the one who's wrong. what did I say, i never said that I didn't say he existed. cock.
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Yah, sorry Dave, but you didn't read that accurately. He said: "Well, I'm not completely positive he ever even existed." He's saying he is't positive, not that didn't ever exist. "I'm still waiting for The God Who Wasn't There to come to the library." Sounds like a book he's looking forward to reading.
How cute
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:27 PM   #42
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How cute
Okay.... And?
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:35 PM   #43
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Okay.... And?
If Mike doesn't have the time to answer for himself he can count on you to be there . . . . which is ahh... cute
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:36 PM   #44
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ok, so you're the one who's wrong. what did I say, i never said that I didn't say he existed. cock.
I was asking you for clarity on what you do with the person of Jesus, and you said you can't say for sure he existed, making yourself look like a total idiot. Who calls somone a cock? You remind me of the guy from austin powers who threw his shoe.
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:37 PM   #45
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How cute
wait a minute, are you backing me up? If so, it is almost as cute as goodbuzz and sova romancing.

awwww, we are cute too!!! :tonka:
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:40 PM   #46
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wait a minute, are you backing me up? If so, it is almost as cute as goodbuzz and sova romancing.

awwww, we are cute too!!! :tonka:

Thanks Dave, I like your avatar . . . chins are in!! But at the same time I try to not repeat your post that lies directly above the new post I'm about to post . . . yeah read that fast it's fun
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:41 PM   #47
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wait a minute, are you backing me up? If so, it is almost as cute as goodbuzz and sova romancing.

awwww, we are cute too!!! :tonka:
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 05:48 PM   #48
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I was asking you for clarity on what you do with the person of Jesus, and you said you can't say for sure he existed, making yourself look like a total idiot. Who calls somone a cock? You remind me of the guy from austin powers who threw his shoe.
good thing you called me an idiot and not a "fool", because that is a hell-worthy offense.
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 06:26 PM   #49
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Hey, I was hoping that RyeBread was going to jump in on this. Hey Rye, where are you buddy? The argument isn't as interesting without you.
I've been pretty busy at work, then was up on an Island with a nice view of the Bridge (albeit it was cold and rainy part of the time) and am now recuperating with stress fractures in my left ankle.

As to the question at hand, it would seem that every time one attempts to have a semi-serious discussion, the cynicism, sarcasm, and outright laughable sources used to discredit either side of the argument degrade the discussions into insults (light hearted or not). Thus, I don't really have any plans on watching the internet movie you linked.

As a result I had stayed out of this subforum for a while. I only found this post due to the reference of my s/n in the thread whilst trying to search for another thread.

I will mention, that your reliance upon various Christian crusades, and cleansings as a means of suggesting that the World had no choice but to accept Christ based faiths is absurd. The very early faith spread like wild fire even in the face of horrific persecution.

Slaughtered for amusement in various Roman blood sports, fed to lions, crucified, etc., etc.

And yes, I am also referring to folks that witnessed the very acts described of Jesus in the gospels, and wrote of them in their own life time. Whether you believe they were tricked or not is your prerogative.

Whether you choose to lump us in with crazies like David Koresh, and/or other false prophets over the millennium is also your prerogative.

-peace
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 06:40 PM   #50
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My head hurts from all of the religous threads. Does anybody on this site go offroading anymore?
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 07:54 PM   #51
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I've been pretty busy at work, then was up on an Island with a nice view of the Bridge (albeit it was cold and rainy part of the time) and am now recuperating with stress fractures in my left ankle.

As to the question at hand, it would seem that every time one attempts to have a semi-serious discussion, the cynicism, sarcasm, and outright laughable sources used to discredit either side of the argument degrade the discussions into insults (light hearted or not). Thus, I don't really have any plans on watching the internet movie you linked.

As a result I had stayed out of this subforum for a while. I only found this post due to the reference of my s/n in the thread whilst trying to search for another thread.

I will mention, that your reliance upon various Christian crusades, and cleansings as a means of suggesting that the World had no choice but to accept Christ based faiths is absurd. The very early faith spread like wild fire even in the face of horrific persecution.

Slaughtered for amusement in various Roman blood sports, fed to lions, crucified, etc., etc.

And yes, I am also referring to folks that witnessed the very acts described of Jesus in the gospels, and wrote of them in their own life time. Whether you believe they were tricked or not is your prerogative.

Whether you choose to lump us in with crazies like David Koresh, and/or other false prophets over the millennium is also your prerogative.

-peace
Given the scope of your commentary it sounds like you've been reading along on more than one of these debates.

I would be interested in seeing your more serious sources, especially since you call ours laughable.

'Reliance'.... On crusades and such.... Do you know that if I mention that I don't believe in god, even to this day, I meet with intense hostility in many social circles? People that didn't believe suffered the same fate as the christians in Rome, but for over a thousand years, not hundreds, so maybe we could call that one even and discuss from some other viewpoint. How about it?

I haven't said that anyone was 'tricked', nor have I grouped you in with crazies. I have however raised what I believe to be some good questions based on popularly accepted historians. If I can display this link correctly to my earlier question elsewhere: http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showpos...&postcount=406

I was only asking if it is POSSIBLE for things to have been exaggerated a little here, and a little there, and maybe mislabeled there, and before you know it you have several hundred years of compounded misinformation. I'm not asking you if you believe that to be the case because you obvioiusly don't, but is it POSSIBLE? You know, to this day there are tons of 'sightings': jesus, elvis, ufo's, etc. Do oyu believe those that say they saw aliens? Do you believe those that say they saw Elvis? How about Jesus? Let's be fair about this.

Finally, the film is just an interesting take on the development of a religion. I invited Mr. Kerwin to give us his take on the matter. I do not cite it as a source for any argument. Being the skeptic that I am I would think that you would suspect that, but even more, I am convinced that people like yourself could provide some provocative rebuttal.

Hope to hear back from you.

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Old May 22nd, 2008, 08:12 PM   #52
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Given the scope of your commentary it sounds like you've been reading along on more than one of these debates.
I confess to skimming the 3 pages of the thread when I found myself mentioned in it, and had the time sitting on the throne earlier with the laptop. (gotta love wifi)

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Hope to hear back from you.
citing sources, and bantering on the forum isn't going to convince you to faith, or more than likely even convince you of any historical accuracies of the Bible, if you haven't managed to come to the point yourself. in as much as attempting to bait mr. kerwin into a 'discussion' will not either.

none of us are versed enough in antiquities to make our own personal inspections of the evidence (or an informed opinion of the perceived lack thereof)

I will however credit you with the ability to perform whatever research you choose to and make your own decision.

as for me, I have a migraine, and over did it today with my ankle/heel for the past 10 days it has cycled from discomfort to flat out pain, and is now throbbing quite aggressively. (stress fractures only discovered today as I finally was able to get into see my doctor)

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Old May 22nd, 2008, 08:30 PM   #53
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I confess to skimming the 3 pages of the thread when I found myself mentioned in it, and had the time sitting on the throne earlier with the laptop. (gotta love wifi)



citing sources, and bantering on the forum isn't going to convince you to faith, or more than likely even convince you of any historical accuracies of the Bible, if you haven't managed to come to the point yourself. in as much as attempting to bait mr. kerwin into a 'discussion' will not either.

none of us are versed enough in antiquities to make our own personal inspections of the evidence (or an informed opinion of the perceived lack thereof)

I will however credit you with the ability to perform whatever research you choose to and make your own decision.
Dang, whenever I try to use multiquote it doesn't do anything, and I don't know how to use it, but whatever...

You hit the nail on the head RyeBread. I'm glad you came back. All along I've been trying to make the point that none of us know. None of us. We can draw all the conclusions we want, but whenever someone asserts their beliefs as FACTS, I jump all over it. My tactic is to try to get them to admit that:

1. They are not facts, they are conclusions.

2. That given the irrepeatability of the "facts", skepticism should be expected and understood, not ridiculed.

3. That as time goes on and the story becomes older and further past with no new developments that can legitimize the story, the skepticism is likely to grow.

4. That at least in science, old conclusions are being tested anew and either verifed or superceded, which makes science worth serious consideration even by devout Christians.

5. Finally, and this is what bothers me the most, that it is possible that the stories in the bible are overstatements, exaggerations, or even interpolations by those that believed very strongly and wanted to be heard.

Imagine if each story were exaggerated only slightly, then those that heard the story exaggerated it again only the slightest bit, and so on......

Science is not the enemy or the antithesis of religion, it is a methodology, but there was a time when it was the enemy of the church. The churches back the nwanted obedience, and science questioned everything. Times are changing and little by little the religious have had to admit to many scientific principles to which they once vehemently opposed. Now it's become so much so that the religious factions are actually spreading their new thing: "intelligent design", as though science were their idea.....

You thoughts?
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 08:55 PM   #54
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You thoughts?
we're all just caught in the matrix...

much like earlier, in another thread it was mentioned that we can only make our own inferences based upon our own conscience. we can know something only based upon our perceptions of what our senses tell us, through the imperfect interpretations that our Brain comes up with.

whether it's a verbal legend retold around the campfire after a buffalo slaughter, written in ancient aramaic/greek, recorded by sensors, and put into a computer model, or observed and 'validated' through repeated observations - they are all just various forms of sensory input that our very powerful, but still feeble brains attempt to make heads or tails out of.

my point in that, is that what you view as factual, vs. plausible, vs. "based in fact" vs. perhaps incrementally revised over millenia is still just your perception of facts - vs. what others cite as their own interpretation of facts.

what you and I see, smell, touch, taste, and hear the world as - either with our own unamplifed senses, or augmented by instruments is still limited by our own ability to interpret, or conceptualize. rather than jumping all over a Christian that cites a different opinion of what is fact, perhaps acknowledge that even the revered scientific method may be flawed by some other higher knowledge, or dimension that we can not possibly conceive of?


or to put it more succinctly, live and let live?
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 09:07 PM   #55
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live and let live?
I totally get where you're coming from. I am not hostile towards the average believer, I just think it's fun to argue. The problem I do have with religious beliefs is when they are dangerous or infringe upon my rights. I feel like that is becoming the case. I don't like it when people fly planes into buildings because they don't like our country and they think it's what their god wants them to do. I don't agree with misogyny, violence, cruelty, and downright creepiness of certain religious texts. I don't agree with religion and I do not want to support it in the least, thus my despising "faith based initiatives". It also bothers me when people refer to our nation as "founded as a Christian nation", when any moron can look at the Constitution and not find one word about Christianity or God. We have a secular Government and I would like it to stay that way. I don't like that we have this un-official religious test for public officials. If you want to be president, you better god-damn well be a Christian and have a pastor. I think this is ridiculous. I think it is ridiculous that I cannot buy a 6-pack of Guinness before noon on a Sunday or not at all in certain counties. I despise the addition of religiosity to our nation after the fact, like the adding of "In God We Trust" to money and that people just accept it because they think it has always been there. I don't like that atheists are the most untrusted group of people in this country, even though we are the most under represented group in our nations prison system. So, in conclusion, I really don't care if you believe some delusion, but I don't want the dogma of that delusion to affect me.
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Old May 22nd, 2008, 10:01 PM   #56
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it is always a delicate balance between the rights of the majority, and those of the individual in a republic based democracy...
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Old May 23rd, 2008, 09:35 AM   #57
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it is always a delicate balance between the rights of the majority, and those of the individual in a republic based democracy...
actually this from Dan Barker helps explain what I was trying to say as well:

Dear Believer, — You asked me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful.
You expect me to believe Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by a ghost? Do you believe all the crazy tales of ancient religions? Julius Caesar was reportedly born of a virgin; Roman historian Seutonius said Augustus bodily rose to heaven when he died; and Buddha was supposedly born speaking. You don't believe all that, do you? Why do you expect me to swallow the fables of Christianity?
I find it incredible that you ask me to believe that the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man's rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; the entire world was flooded, covering the mountains to drown evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; language variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile turned to blood; a stick turned into a snake; witches, wizards, and sorcerers really exist; food rained from the sky for 40 years; people were cured by the sight of a brass serpent; the sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and it went backward for King Hezekiah; men survived unaided in a fiery furnace; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; men followed a star which directed them to a particular house; Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water instantly turned into wine; mental illness is caused by demons; a �devil� with wings exists who causes evil; people were healed by stepping into a pool agitated by angels; disembodied voiced spoke from the sky; Jesus vanished and later materialized from thin air; people were healed by Peter's shadow; angels broke people out of jail; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth ... while there is life-after-death in a city which is 1,500 miles cubed, with mansions and food, for Christians only.
If you believe these stories, then you are the one with the problem, not me. These myths violate natural law, contradict science, and fail to correspond with reality or logic. If you can't see that, then you can't separate truth from fantasy. It doesn't matter how many people accept delusions inflicted by �holy� men; a widely held lie is still a lie. If you are so gullible, then you are like the child who believes the older brother who says there is a monster in the hallway. But there is nothing to be afraid of; go turn on the light and look for yourself.
If Christianity were simply untrue I would not be too concerned. Santa is untrue, but it is a harmless myth which people outgrow. But Christianity, besides being false, is also abhorrent. It amazes me that you claim to love the god of the bible, a hateful, arrogant, sexist, cruel being who can't tolerate criticism. I would not want to live in the same neighborhood with such a creature!
The biblical god is a macho male warrior. Though he said “Thou shalt not kill,” he ordered death for all opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punishes offspring to the fourth generation (Ex. 20:5); ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16); demands animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judges women to be inferior to men; is a sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil (Is. 45:7); discriminated against the handicapped (Lev. 21:18-23); ordered virgins to be kept as spoils of war (Num. 31:15-18, Deut. 21:11-14); spread dung on people's faces (Mal. 2:3); sent bears to devour 42 children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punishes people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ez. 5:10). Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?
And Jesus is a chip off the old block. He said, �I and my father are one,� and he upheld �every jot and tittle� of the Old Testament law. Mt. 5:18 He preached the same old judgment: vengeance and death, wrath and distress, hell and torture for all nonconformists. He believed in demons, angels and spirits. He never denounced the subjugation of slaves or women. Women were excluded as disciples and as guests at his heavenly table. Except for hell he introduced nothing new to ethics or philosophy. He was disrespectful of his mother and brothers; he said we should hate our parents and desert our families. Mt. 10:35-36, Lk. 14:26 (So much for �Christian family life.�) He denounced anger, but was often angry himself. Mt. 5:22, Mk. 3:5 He called people �fools� (Mt. 23:17,19), �serpents,� and �white sepulchers,� though he warned that such language puts you in danger of hellfire. Mt. 5:22 He said �Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword." Mt. 10:34 (So much for �Peace on Earth.�) He irrationally cursed and withered a fig tree for being barren out of season. Mt. 21:19 He mandated burning unbelievers. Jn. 15:6 (The Church has complied with relish.) He stole a horse. Lk. 19:30-33 He told people to cut off hands, feet, eyes and sexual organs. Mt. 5:29-30, 19:12 You want me to accept Jesus, but I think I'll pick my own friend, thank you.
One of Jesus's many contradictions was saying good works should be seen, and not seen. Mt. 5:16, 6:1-4 One of his mistakes was saying that the mustard plant has the smallest seed. Mt. 13:31-32 The writers of Matthew and Luke could not even get his genealogy straight, contradicting the Old Testament, and giving Jesus two discrepant lines through Joseph, his non-father!
I also find Christianity to be morally repugnant. The concepts of original sin, depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishment, and humble worship are all beneath the dignity of intelligent human beings and conflict with the values of kindness and reason. They are barbaric ideas for primitive cultures cowering in fear and ignorance.
Finally, Christianity is harmful. More people have been killed in the name of a god than for any other reason. The Church has a shameful, bloody history of Crusades, Inquisitions, witch-burnings, heresy trials, American colonial intolerance, disrespect of indigenous traditions (such as American Indians), support of slavery, and oppression of women. Modern “fruits” of religion include the Jonestown massacre, the callous fraud of “faith healers,” recent wars and ethnic cleansing, and fighting in Northern Ireland. Religion also poses a danger to mental health, damaging self-respect, personal responsibility, and clarity of thought.
Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity — but leave me out of it. I have better things to do with my life.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/..._believer.html
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Old May 23rd, 2008, 09:50 AM   #58
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Pastafarianism for me!
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Old May 23rd, 2008, 10:28 AM   #59
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actually this from Dan Barker helps explain what I was trying to say as well:
what, if anything does that have to do with the balance of individual vs. majority rights in a republic-based democracy?

regardless, the very argumentative, and inflammatory/divisive language used suggests at a minimum that the author (and by extraction you through association with a professed affinity to his statements) do indeed have a problem with Christians, regardless if you are inconvenienced by a handful of laws, or regulations which in part may be based on the wishes of a majority of votes influenced by Christians.

In a previous post you take issue that you can't purchase alcohol prior to noon, and a host of other nonsense that apparently you view as a grievous restriction of your personal freedoms.

For once, I'd rather see you rail against the FACT that our republic is essentially for sale. Instead of trying to drink away your misery before Sunday's brunch, how about trying figure out a way to criminalize (or more efficiently prosecute) the process of buying votes in this country...
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Old May 23rd, 2008, 10:50 AM   #60
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Pastafarianism for me!
you seriously need to read the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster. It will change your life.
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