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Old May 8th, 2008, 05:40 AM   #41
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Key word community.

The federal govt has no business being in the business of providing healthcare. They're there to provide defense, etc... that glue the US together as a whole. Your local community (state, county, city) always has the option to tack on healthcare if it's deemed necessary by the needs driven by that community.

You feel fine giving, but that should be your choice. When you force people to pay for others, then you become a socialist.
Great answer... Give it to the states as it should be.. Let each state decide what they want to do with this.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 05:45 AM   #42
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Public safety (FAA, FDA, etc..) != public health coverage

And I would be perfectly fine with most of those programs disappearing. And there are state programs noted there... those programs are acceptable, as long as the voting public in that state are fine with it.

Do you honestly believe that on the job health insurance and all that other bullshit would disappear if the federal govt was trimmed down to more reasonable proportions?

Many of us aren't advocating tax cuts to the rich... I advocate tax cuts to everyone. I'm advocating people work in some way to fucking support themselves though, unless they're legitimately not able to.

"be careful what you wish for"... I say, let's do it... and bring it on. I'm ready... I've never relied on the government for anything, and don't intend to any time soon. I've been unemployed, and I did NOT collect unemployment.
you said it all...
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Old May 8th, 2008, 11:38 AM   #43
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You're right. You're right. I have a great idea. Let's get rid of all government sponsered programs... Copied and pasted from another site thread:

"How to educate the right on why govt is good?

Not just the right, but those darn libertarians too, they are worse, almost.

What would be best, and now we are talking about the average middle to lower income person who is either staunch Republican or Libertarian,

is to eliminate all state and federal programs, including but not limited to

Medicare, Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, State Disability, School Lunches, GI Bill, Student Loans, Welfare and Food Stamps, SBA Loans, Head Start, Low Income Energy Assistance Program, Child & Adult Food Care Program, Federal Housing Assistance, State Childrens Health Insurance Program, Medicaid, Temporary Assistance For Needy Families, Child Protection/Foster Care and Adoption services, and more... AND every govt entity like FAA, FDA, etc., no more requirement of health insurance on the job, no more Work Comp, no more govt entities monitoring abuses of employees or production of unsafe products...

Secondly, reduce tax rates on the wealthy to next to nothing, which is their goal, turn all govt work to the public sector...

Then, watch as these very same and libertarians go nuts when they find out there isnt a single safety net to fall back on, now that they are working for $5 an hour with no benefits, which is what would happen if govt allowed corp to do whatever they wanted, period...it is so obvious and such a case of common sense, but some folks have to find out the hard way.

I say lets do it for a couple of years, then we wont have to listen to this crap anymore... "

I couldn't agree more Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.
This is crap, what's your source Rosie_O'Donnell?

First Libertarian's want the FEDERAL government reduced to nearly nothing. Local government is still a necessary evil in some cases even to a Libertarian.

Second point, about everyone making 5 dollars an hour. Why isn't that happening today? Doctor's could be paid minimum wage, you know why they aren't? Because they have a talent that is in demand, not because of government control of wages. It is called Competition. Those with a skill that is in demand would have nothing to worry about, those who are uneducated, unskilled or lazy would have a lot to worry about.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 03:36 PM   #44
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This is crap, what's your source Rosie_O'Donnell?

First Libertarian's want the FEDERAL government reduced to nearly nothing. Local government is still a necessary evil in some cases even to a Libertarian.

Second point, about everyone making 5 dollars an hour. Why isn't that happening today? Doctor's could be paid minimum wage, you know why they aren't? Because they have a talent that is in demand, not because of government control of wages. It is called Competition. Those with a skill that is in demand would have nothing to worry about, those who are uneducated, unskilled or lazy would have a lot to worry about.
Dude, calm down. Those aren't my words. I copied them from another site. I found what he said to be interesting. Made me think.

If it wasn't for FHA, I know 2 people off the top of my head that wouldn't be homeowners right now, and they are hard working, responsible people. There were some other agencies on the list I wouldn't want to see go, and I suspect some of you might feel the same way. That's why I posted it.

About your question, "why isn't that happening now?"???? It is happening all over the country. Average and median wages are falling all over the place. I would bet you that there are alot of people on this site that are making the same or less than they were 8 years ago. Hell, I made 6 figures before W was elected. I don't now. Why? Because corporations that used to need people like me are leaving the country so there are fewer jobs. When the unemployment rate rises (which is extremely high right now) then the availability of labor goes up. When supply goes up, the price goes down. Basic economics.

About doctors? Well the AMA is one of the strongest lobbying organizations in America. I never said that there is federal control over wages. Neither did the quote I posted. But I will submit to you that regulations and other legislation that favor or hurt various interests have a profound effect on their value, longevity, etc. I hope you can at least agree to that.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 03:57 PM   #45
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Dude, calm down. Those aren't my words. I copied them from another site. I found what he said to be interesting. Made me think.

If it wasn't for FHA, I know 2 people off the top of my head that wouldn't be homeowners right now, and they are hard working, responsible people. There were some other agencies on the list I wouldn't want to see go, and I suspect some of you might feel the same way. That's why I posted it.

About your question, "why isn't that happening now?"???? It is happening all over the country. Average and median wages are falling all over the place. I would bet you that there are alot of people on this site that are making the same or less than they were 8 years ago. Hell, I made 6 figures before W was elected. I don't now. Why? Because corporations that used to need people like me are leaving the country so there are fewer jobs. When the unemployment rate rises (which is extremely high right now) then the availability of labor goes up. When supply goes up, the price goes down. Basic economics.

About doctors? Well the AMA is one of the strongest lobbying organizations in America. I never said that there is federal control over wages. Neither did the quote I posted. But I will submit to you that regulations and other legislation that favor or hurt various interests have a profound effect on their value, longevity, etc. I hope you can at least agree to that.
plz to be finding and quoting evidence that wages are stagnating, or going down...
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Old May 8th, 2008, 04:24 PM   #46
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plz to be finding and quoting evidence that wages are stagnating, or going down...
I will. No problem. I'm leaving the office right now and heading home. I'll try to do it tonight.

Interesting though that you didn't seem to have any argument for anything else I said..... *shrug*
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Old May 8th, 2008, 05:44 PM   #47
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Interesting though that you didn't seem to have any argument for anything else I said..... *shrug*
not much of it was directly opinion, but more personal experience...

plus I'm too tired to really care right now.
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Last edited by schweeb; May 8th, 2008 at 05:49 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 11:44 AM   #48
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About your question, "why isn't that happening now?"???? It is happening all over the country. Average and median wages are falling all over the place. I would bet you that there are alot of people on this site that are making the same or less than they were 8 years ago. Hell, I made 6 figures before W was elected. I don't now. Why? Because corporations that used to need people like me are leaving the country so there are fewer jobs. When the unemployment rate rises (which is extremely high right now) then the availability of labor goes up. When supply goes up, the price goes down. Basic economics..
I know all about basic economics.

It's so easy to blame Bush isn't it? But ask your self why are they leaving? Answer: Corporations are leaving the country because of the high tax rate here. Why is the tax rate so high? Uncontroled government spending by both parties.

I'll post this again in case you missed it......

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publica...how/22917.html

Look at Ireland, 18% corp. tax rate and their economy is booming! Here 39%. Why would I give 21% of my companies profit to the government if I don't have to? that's just bad business. Until our tax structure comes in line with the rest of the world we will continue to bleed businesses and jobs.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt

Extremely high unemployment? The unemployment rate nationally for April is 5%, historically pretty low. It just dropped .1% last month. In fact 4-5% is considered full employment in this country because 4-5% of the population will never work or are between jobs(not jobless), why should they work when the government is giving them free money to stay home?

Sure Michigan is higher at what 7-8(?)% now? It's not exactly a business friendly environment in the great lake state right now is it? High taxes & unions make it real hard to make money here compared to the rest of the world. Competition is kicking Michigans ass.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 04:56 PM   #49
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I know all about basic economics.

It's so easy to blame Bush isn't it? But ask your self why are they leaving? Answer: Corporations are leaving the country because of the high tax rate here. Why is the tax rate so high? Uncontroled government spending by both parties.

I'll post this again in case you missed it......

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publica...how/22917.html

Look at Ireland, 18% corp. tax rate and their economy is booming! Here 39%. Why would I give 21% of my companies profit to the government if I don't have to? that's just bad business. Until our tax structure comes in line with the rest of the world we will continue to bleed businesses and jobs.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt

Extremely high unemployment? The unemployment rate nationally for April is 5%, historically pretty low. It just dropped .1% last month. In fact 4-5% is considered full employment in this country because 4-5% of the population will never work or are between jobs(not jobless), why should they work when the government is giving them free money to stay home?

Sure Michigan is higher at what 7-8(?)% now? It's not exactly a business friendly environment in the great lake state right now is it? High taxes & unions make it real hard to make money here compared to the rest of the world. Competition is kicking Michigans ass.

The unions are only an issue if you are trying to open a business that is 1) large enough to warrant their attention, and 2) in an industry that is relevant to them. There are thousands of large employers all over this state that never have to deal with unions. Doesn't matter though. I'm not prounion anyway. I don't think we need unions anymore. Just good employment practices and reasonable pay.

The unemployment rate has been determined by a sampling of only 60,000 households since, I believe, late 2001 or early 2002. I agree the percentage figures you've provided are what is published, but they fail to explain the phenomena all over the country that I and people I converse with all over the country have first-hand experience, that there are fewer jobs advertised and available, and that (as a hiring manager I experience this) when a job is advertised, literally hundreds of resumes pour in. People that are wildly overqualified are applying, and I talk to many of them on the phone, and they all tell the same story: there are just no jobs. Many have been looking for 6 months or more. They are desperate. I've had MBA's apply for Administrative Assistant and Receptionist jobs because they can't find anything. You should see the piles of resumes I have to go through when I am hiring for a position. Tons of well qualified people, and I can only pick one (or whatever the listing calls for).

Irelands economy WAS good, for a little while, but now: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...542364,00.html

Bush had a 'rubber stamp' Republican majority for most of his reign and they successfully rammed through everything they wanted, and look where we are as a result. Sorry righties, you can't blame the left this time. The left had no say on much of anything because the right was in control across the board. Even after the left got the (slim) majority, it's still not filibuster proof. The right made it clear when they lost the house that anything and everything is going to be filibustered. Period. So the left isn't getting anything through. That's why Bush was actually telling the truth when he said the left hasn't put anything in front of him: because it never makes it that far. Filibuster. It's the Republicans last stand to make the left look ineffective, and so far it's been working. De facto filibuster.

When Bush took office, gas was $1.46 a gallon. Guess it's far fetched to consider a connection to a President with family ties to big oil and friends of the Saudi royals starting a war without cause against a major oil producer resulting in huge price increases. Nearly all costs of living are based on the price of fuel. Nearly ALL. Our cost of living has soared (been to the supermarket lately?), but our wages have not.

Bush promised us that this war (that Cheney said would be "6 months tops") would be paid for by the 'oil revenues' that they knew they would generate once Haliburton took over the oil fields.... Well, they have. What happened? Where'd the money go? Why are we borrowing from China to pay for this? Yes, it's Bush.

I understand loyalty to your party. That's fine. I understand loyalty to Germany before WW2, but I don't agree that they should have been loyal to Hitler, and I don't believe you should be loyal to Bush. Geo. H.W. Bush was a good president. G.W. Bush, on the other hand, has done a terrible job.

And everone wants to point at Bill Clinton... Better to have a President screwing an intern, then one who screws the entire country.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 11:12 PM   #50
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still waiting for evidence of wage decreases...

and most people I've talked to (and in my own experience, screening resumes) are actually having trouble finding people to fill positions...
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Old May 10th, 2008, 07:59 AM   #51
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The unions are only an issue if you are trying to open a business that is 1) large enough to warrant their attention, and 2) in an industry that is relevant to them. There are thousands of large employers all over this state that never have to deal with unions. Doesn't matter though. I'm not prounion anyway. I don't think we need unions anymore. Just good employment practices and reasonable pay.
See we can agree. Unions aren't useful anymore.

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The unemployment rate has been determined by a sampling of only 60,000 households since, I believe, late 2001 or early 2002. I agree the percentage figures you've provided are what is published, but they fail to explain the phenomena all over the country that I and people I converse with all over the country have first-hand experience, that there are fewer jobs advertised and available, and that (as a hiring manager I experience this) when a job is advertised, literally hundreds of resumes pour in. People that are wildly overqualified are applying, and I talk to many of them on the phone, and they all tell the same story: there are just no jobs. Many have been looking for 6 months or more. They are desperate. I've had MBA's apply for Administrative Assistant and Receptionist jobs because they can't find anything. You should see the piles of resumes I have to go through when I am hiring for a position. Tons of well qualified people, and I can only pick one (or whatever the listing calls for).
Wait I thought you were a vice president, now your a hiring manager. Which is it? Oh yeah and remember your hiring in Michigan(I assume). We agree Michigan is much more depressed than the rest of the country when it comes to jobs.

Thats why I am trying to leave here. I am looking at a job doing almost exactly what I do here but for a lot more money then I make now. It's in another state of course. I don't have a degree, but I do have a marketable skill. That being said most of the people I worked with got laid off in the last 4 years and they all found jobs at or above their original pay level. They just had to leave Michigan to get them.

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Irelands economy WAS good, for a little while, but now: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...542364,00.html

Bush had a 'rubber stamp' Republican majority for most of his reign and they successfully rammed through everything they wanted, and look where we are as a result. Sorry righties, you can't blame the left this time. The left had no say on much of anything because the right was in control across the board. Even after the left got the (slim) majority, it's still not filibuster proof. The right made it clear when they lost the house that anything and everything is going to be filibustered. Period. So the left isn't getting anything through. That's why Bush was actually telling the truth when he said the left hasn't put anything in front of him: because it never makes it that far. Filibuster. It's the Republicans last stand to make the left look ineffective, and so far it's been working. De facto filibuster.

When Bush took office, gas was $1.46 a gallon. Guess it's far fetched to consider a connection to a President with family ties to big oil and friends of the Saudi royals starting a war without cause against a major oil producer resulting in huge price increases. Nearly all costs of living are based on the price of fuel. Nearly ALL. Our cost of living has soared (been to the supermarket lately?), but our wages have not.

Bush promised us that this war (that Cheney said would be "6 months tops") would be paid for by the 'oil revenues' that they knew they would generate once Haliburton took over the oil fields.... Well, they have. What happened? Where'd the money go? Why are we borrowing from China to pay for this? Yes, it's Bush.

We agree again; Bush has done a poor job reducing government spending, (thats twice in one post!) It is far fetched though, you assume too much when it comes to a conspiracy about oil prices. A lot of things are affecting the increased price of oil but I don't think Bush is one of them. However if you have some evidence then let's see it.

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I understand loyalty to your party. That's fine. I understand loyalty to Germany before WW2, but I don't agree that they should have been loyal to Hitler, and I don't believe you should be loyal to Bush. Geo. H.W. Bush was a good president. G.W. Bush, on the other hand, has done a terrible job.

And everone wants to point at Bill Clinton... Better to have a President screwing an intern, then one who screws the entire country.
I hope this isn't directed at me. I am not a Republician and I don't support that party. As I stated before I am a Libertarian.

http://www.lp.org/

It's too bad they can't field an electable candidate, I think a lot of people would support the ideals of the Libertarian party.

So how is increasing Government spending by inacting "universal healthcare" going to help this country stop borrowing money from China?
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Old May 10th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #52
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still waiting for evidence of wage decreases...

and most people I've talked to (and in my own experience, screening resumes) are actually having trouble finding people to fill positions...
and where would these positions be located? Seriously I need a freaking job.
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Old May 10th, 2008, 11:17 AM   #53
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So how is increasing Government spending by inacting "universal healthcare" going to help this country stop borrowing money from China?
You want to see a deficit... implement universal healthcare!!!!
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Old May 10th, 2008, 11:40 AM   #54
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and where would these positions be located? Seriously I need a freaking job.
what are your skills? Just about anything requiring any kind of specialization (computers, medical, etc...) is doing quite well. Or you could always get into sales...
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Old May 10th, 2008, 12:23 PM   #55
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i love how when you question government intervention it's immediately a vast extreme that would never happen. Just because we don't want the government in our healthcare doesn't mean we don't want the government delivering our mail.

Come on, we aren't screaming anarchy just how much intervention of government do you really want in your life until they are wiping your ass and telling you what you can watch or what you think.
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Old May 10th, 2008, 01:32 PM   #56
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like schweeb said, i am fine with 90 percent of the federal government shutting down. the only people our nation looks out for are the crybabies that want handouts. In my opinion, a national healthcare system is just another way for those lazy fucks to abuse the system.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 07:10 AM   #57
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Well, since you asked:

1. I type fast, just like I think.
2. I read fast, so my posts would only take me seconds to read through.
3. I accomplish a great deal everyday and am paid an excellent professional salary for my accomplishments. I am very good at my chosen career, have an outstanding resume, never have a problem finding high paying work, and am currently an Assistant Vice President at a very large multinational corporation.

How about you?
So you are getting paid alot of money to sit on the computer and browse the internet??? Hook me up
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Old May 16th, 2008, 01:17 PM   #58
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i love how when you question government intervention it's immediately a vast extreme that would never happen. Just because we don't want the government in our healthcare doesn't mean we don't want the government delivering our mail. I am a libertarian and that simply means i strive for liberty in my life. Freedom of choice and freedom to do what i want within reason. When the government is allowed to make choices for you healthcare, your pretty much shit out of luck.
Ya, but that's what most of you are doing when SPECULATING as to how single payer health care would work out. You have already decided that it would be a dismal failure, and that the government would control ALL OF IT.

I will try this again, and see if any of you actually comprehend it: have BASIC HEALTHCARE provided to all people, and STILL PROVIDE PRIVATE INSURANCE for those that want more. The basics don't have to cover much.

You can't get a free boob job in Canada or Germany or Norway, but you can get basic health care in any of those countries NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE FROM.

If one of you went skiing in Switzerland and shattered your legs in a bad crash, you would get all necessary basic care FOR FREE, but even Swiss citizens have to PAY for a nose job.

Gawd you guys, how many times do I have to explain this?
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Old May 16th, 2008, 01:17 PM   #59
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So you are getting paid alot of money to sit on the computer and browse the internet??? Hook me up
I can't hook you up. You have to earn it yourself. You're not one of those communo-socialist "I want a handout" types are you?
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Old May 16th, 2008, 01:28 PM   #60
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See we can agree. Unions aren't useful anymore.



Wait I thought you were a vice president, now your a hiring manager. Which is it? "Vice President" is a TITLE. "Hiring Manager" is a FUNCTION. Any manager in any role is a hiring manager if they are hiring for their department/division.
We agree again; Bush has done a poor job reducing government spending, (thats twice in one post!) It is far fetched though, you assume too much when it comes to a conspiracy about oil prices. A lot of things are affecting the increased price of oil but I don't think Bush is one of them. However if you have some evidence then let's see it. I never said it was a "conspiracy". Read it again. I said that what they did "resulted" in high gas prices. 2 different things. But even then, Bush is ignoring public pleas to intervene in the outrageous profiteering going on in all areas of this illegal occupation (those that don't know better still call it a "war", but that is wrong).

It's too bad they can't field an electable candidate, I think a lot of people would support the ideals of the Libertarian party. Agreed. I certainly do.

So how is increasing Government spending by inacting "universal healthcare" going to help this country stop borrowing money from China? Because if it is publically approved of then no one is going to have demostrations in the street over it and will pay the taxes. Bush borrowed from China and others, I and many others agree, because if he raised our taxes as have ALL OTHER NATIONAL LEADERS THROUGHOUT MANS HISTROY HAVE DONE, then we would have fought it and he wouldn't have gotten his war. The same with the draftt... ALL OTHER SOCIETIES INSTITUTE DRAFTS DURING WARS.... ALL OF THEM.... But then there would be demonstrations in the streets and people wouldn't go along with Bush's war.

The fact is that every reason Bush said we needed to go have been disproven, other than the spreading democracy argument, but if that were our true motive then why don't we attack the rest of the world? Besides, isn't attacking a nation to teach them choice sort of antithetical? I mean, That's like saying that we're going to FORCE them to do what we want, and call that democratic?
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Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
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