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Old April 30th, 2008, 10:28 AM   #61
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x2!

Also, how can god and jesus be the same? Wasn't jesus created by god via immaculate conception? That would mean that he previously didn't exist.
How can you be a Husband, a Father, and an Employee? Aren't you just ONE person??? How could as as a Father be the same person as you as a Husband????? That would mean that you are either not a Husband, not a Father, or not an Employee.

Jesus pre-existed his own incarnation. Even in the garden of Eden account, God spoke as the trinity when he said "LETS make man in OUR likeness and image" When Jesus came to Earth, he didn't just happen to exist then, he merely showed up on the scene. After he resurrected, he then ascended BACK to where he came, and now he sits on the throne in heaven.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 10:31 AM   #62
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Right, so you told us before that in order to know god we have to confess, or some other such nonsense. In order to confess we have to believe. if we already believe, then obviously we're going to "know god" because because we already believe. It's like my monkeys. You can't see them unless you BELIEVE in them, then they will make themselves known to you. My proof of this is: If there is anyone out there that does not TRULY believe that monkeys come out of my ass, then they won't be able to see them. If you can't see them, then you don't TRULY believe. My monkeys know your true heart.

You took part in the long thread, "So Mr. Toes wants me to start a thread arguing the bible..." didn't you? We can pick up where we left off on that one if you like.
The problem is that said monkeys have absolutely ZERO evidence, and have absolutely ZERO proof, and have absolutely ZERO logical basis, and have absolutely ZERO historical evidence. THAT is the difference.

No thanks.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 10:48 AM   #63
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How can you be a Husband, a Father, and an Employee? Aren't you just ONE person??? How could as as a Father be the same person as you as a Husband????? That would mean that you are either not a Husband, not a Father, or not an Employee. But I never claimed to have created the earth, or got mary pregnant and giving up my son for the people I created... Completely immaterial.

Jesus pre-existed his own incarnation. Even in the garden of Eden account, God spoke as the trinity when he said "LETS make man in OUR likeness and image" Please show me where it says that.When Jesus came to Earth, he didn't just happen to exist then, he merely showed up on the scene.Ummmm... I believe that mary gave birth to him in a manger or some such bologna.... You know, the big scene everyone argues over during the holidays???? Mary was PREGNAT with jesus when she and joseph showed up at the inn.... After he resurrected, he then ascended BACK to where he came, and now he sits on the throne in heaven.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 10:52 AM   #64
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The problem is that said monkeys have absolutely ZERO evidence, and have absolutely ZERO proof, and have absolutely ZERO logical basis, and have absolutely ZERO historical evidence. THAT is the difference.

No thanks.
Sure they do. I have exactly as much "proof" as you have for your god. No more, no less.

Your "eyewitness accounts" are hear-say because you cannot verify that what is written was actually said by the people that ALLEGEDLY said them, so that is ZERO. All you have is a book that was provided to the people by the church/council in power at the time, and they clearly had a desire to remian in power, so that is ZERO. You have ZERO proof that you can show us of the actual existence of this god, just your belief, so you have ZERO there too.

So far all either of us have is that the only way you can see them is to BELIEVE. Faith. That's it.

Boy, when you die I hope the monkeys have mercy on your soul......
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Old April 30th, 2008, 10:56 AM   #65
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1. But I never claimed to have created the earth, or got mary pregnant and giving up my son for the people I created... Completely immaterial.

2. Please show me where it says that.When

3. Mary was PREGNAT with jesus when she and joseph showed up at the inn....
1. Ok, what is your point?? I asked you to explain how you could be three different things inside of just one person. Waiting for a responce.

2. Sure, click here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&context=verse

3. Yeah, and what is your point? A woman has to be pregnant in order to have a baby, at least thats how it worked out for my family. Mary was not immaculately PREGNANT, she had an immaculate CONCEPTION.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 10:59 AM   #66
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Sure they do. I have exactly as much "proof" as you have for your god. No more, no less.

Your "eyewitness accounts" are hear-say because you cannot verify that what is written was actually said by the people that ALLEGEDLY said them, so that is ZERO. All you have is a book that was provided to the people by the church/council in power at the time, and they clearly had a desire to remian in power, so that is ZERO. You have ZERO proof that you can show us of the actual existence of this god, just your belief, so you have ZERO there too.

So far all either of us have is that the only way you can see them is to BELIEVE. Faith. That's it.

Boy, when you die I hope the monkeys have mercy on your soul......
Ok, so you find the eye witness accounts to be utterly worthless. I suppose you also reject ALL written texts of ALL human history? Based on your argument, you would HAVE to reject all human history that you were not personally present to see for yourself. But then again, you would have to reject yourself since eye witness accounts are not good enough. Dude, I have to clue you in here, you have NO Idea what you are talking about. I don't say that to take a cheap shot at you, you simply do not know of what you speak. If you even had a CLUE about who was in power during Jesus day, your argument would instandly be destroyed.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:05 AM   #67
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1. Ok, what is your point?? I asked you to explain how you could be three different things inside of just one person. Waiting for a responce. I gave it, but here we go again... Pregnancy is the result of conception. Either way your god would have had to fertilized mary's ovum in order for jesus to have come to being, therefore jesus did not exist until your god supposedly made him..... Also, I don't see in genesis where it said that your god was more than one entity. In fact, most of the language implies singularity, other than the one you pointed out below....

2. Sure, click here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&context=verse
Well I'll be darned... You're right. He did say "us".

3. Yeah, and what is your point? A woman has to be pregnant in order to have a baby, at least thats how it worked out for my family. Mary was not immaculately PREGNANT, she had an immaculate CONCEPTION. See Item 1
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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:12 AM   #68
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Ok, so you find the eye witness accounts to be utterly worthless. I suppose you also reject ALL written texts of ALL human history? Based on your argument, you would HAVE to reject all human history that you were not personally present to see for yourself. But then again, you would have to reject yourself since eye witness accounts are not good enough. Dude, I have to clue you in here, you have NO Idea what you are talking about. I don't say that to take a cheap shot at you, you simply do not know of what you speak. If you even had a CLUE about who was in power during Jesus day, your argument would instandly be destroyed.
Thank you for saying for yourself what Mike and I have been trying to say to you (and people like you) all along. I really had to turn the argument around to get you on board, but it finally worked...

Now that you see how ridiculous it is to deny the validity of adequate evidence because it doesn't conform to your current beliefs, you see how ridiculous people like you and Mr. Toes look when you keep saying that there is NO EVIDENCE for evolution....

There are FAR MORE accounts of history that do NOT include the stories told in your bible than those that DO. FAR MORE. Yet you make arguments to satisfy yourself that your little book is still the stronger argument. How is that any more ridiculous than what you just managed to finally say for yourself about me?
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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #69
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1. Ok, what is your point?? I asked you to explain how you could be three different things inside of just one person. Waiting for a responce.

I gave it, but here we go again... Pregnancy is the result of conception. Either way your god would have had to fertilized mary's ovum in order for jesus to have come to being, therefore jesus did not exist until your god supposedly made him..... Also, I don't see in genesis where it said that your god was more than one entity. In fact, most of the language implies singularity, other than the one you pointed out below....


2. Sure, click here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&context=verse

Well I'll be darned... You're right. He did say "us".
1. I asked about how YOU could be three beings inside of one person. You responded with your thoughts on God. So AGAIN, I await your responce... about ... YOU. Let me address in your thoughts on God in the mean time. God is spirit, and God in Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us. If Jesus has supernatural power, then surely he could become flesh. Not only do the scriptures say back in Genesis that THEY made everything, but also in the gospel references say that God became flesh. I understand that to a degree this is circular reasoning, but the Bible upholds the notion that Jesus pre-existed his own incarnation, and that Jesus exists now still.

2. So now you believe me? Keep it up
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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:41 AM   #70
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1. I asked about how YOU could be three beings inside of one person. You responded with your thoughts on God. So AGAIN, I await your responce... about ... YOU. *sigh* Okay, in your example of ME, I am not 3 different BEINGS, I am the same being playing 3 different ROLES at different times. There is no claim whatsoever that I invented myself, or created my self, or anything like that. I don't understand how that is even a basis for comparison. Let me address in your thoughts on God in the mean time. God is spirit, and God in Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us. If Jesus has supernatural power, then surely he could become flesh. Not only do the scriptures say back in Genesis that THEY made everything, but also in the gospel references say that God became flesh. I understand that to a degree this is circular reasoning, but the Bible upholds the notion that Jesus pre-existed his own incarnation, and that Jesus exists now still.

2. So now you believe me? Keep it up Not sure what you mean by "believe"... I'm simply pointing out that you were right that the term "us" was used..... Don't wet yourself. I followed with other questions.
. Great, so the bible again reaffirms your beliefs.... Comes as no surprise to me, but what does all this have to do with the thread?

You made the remark that if I want to start a thread to debate all of this you would be happy to debate with me, and I pointed out that one already exists and I would happy to pick that back up, and if I understand correctly you said "No thanks"....

So far I still don't believe that you have helped Mike or me understand how god may be speaking to us....
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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:45 AM   #71
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get him Dave!!!
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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:57 AM   #72
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Now that you see how ridiculous it is to deny the validity of adequate evidence because it doesn't conform to your current beliefs, you see how ridiculous people like you and Mr. Toes look when you keep saying that there is NO EVIDENCE for evolution....

There are FAR MORE accounts of history that do NOT include the stories told in your bible than those that DO. FAR MORE. Yet you make arguments to satisfy yourself that your little book is still the stronger argument. How is that any more ridiculous than what you just managed to finally say for yourself about me?
I don't care what conforms to my beliefs, I care what is TRUE, then I belief THAT. When did I ever say there is NO evidence for evolution? I never said that, I rarely talk about evolution. I think there is evidence, but not enough to believe it.

Guy, you think I am stupid? I know history exists outside the Bible, I never claimed that (note, this is the second thing in your post you claimed I believed, you actually ASSumed both).

You did not address ANYTHING that I wrote. I exploited your argument, you did not respond to what I said, you went in a different direction. So let me bring you back. If you reject the historicity of the Bible, what SPECIFIC qualifications do you require that history have in order for it to be verifiable as true? Take this random dude for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin Do you think he actually existed? How do you know FOR SURE he died from a single bullet in battle? How can you possibly trust the witnesses that said that happened? After all, you were not there, so it must not have happened, right? There are no pictures of him laying on a battle field. There are no documented papers signed by a doctor verifying the cause of death... so how could you possibly believe it happened? According to your logic, it did not happen, because it is just some old stuff that was written in a book that cannot be verified... right?
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Old April 30th, 2008, 12:01 PM   #73
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1. Don't wet yourself.

2. Great, so the bible again reaffirms your beliefs.... Comes as no surprise to me, but what does all this have to do with the thread? So far I still don't believe that you have helped Mike or me understand how god may be speaking to us
1. Too late

2. Is probably has nothing to do with this thread, but you started asking questions, and I answered them. If you want to talk about how I, or someone else, feels they hear from God, then shart asking.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 12:36 PM   #74
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Mike, I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists, or that Jesus is God, the same way that you cannot prove that evolution is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, or that its theory explains our origins. The point is this, if you are willing to make a logical conclusion based on the best data available, then lets have at it. Further, if you are willing to accept EYE WITNESS accounts of the gospels as part of a progressive thought, then again, lets have a it. If either of those are unacceptable then I will not entertain the discussion.
well, by this logic, How am I to not believe that Mohammad is actually the true prophet? I mean the Qu'ran is loaded with the same types of eyewitness accounts...so why should I believe Jesus is legit and not Mohammad?
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Old April 30th, 2008, 12:44 PM   #75
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well, by this logic, How am I to not believe that Mohammad is actually the true prophet? I mean the Qu'ran is loaded with the same types of eyewitness accounts...so why should I believe Jesus is legit and not Mohammad?
Here is how: If Muhammed made strong claims, then BACKED THEM UP, you need to start paying attention.

The reason you would begin to investigate the claims of Jesus Christ is because he backed up his claims.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 01:00 PM   #76
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Here is how: If Muhammed made strong claims, then BACKED THEM UP, you need to start paying attention.

The reason you would begin to investigate the claims of Jesus Christ is because he backed up his claims.
you mean prophecies?
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Old April 30th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #77
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you mean prophecies?
by prophets before him, yes. But what I am mainly referring to is what Jesus said about himself. That he would do certain things, but here is the clencher, HE BACKED IT ALL UP. The entire strength of Christ is in his resurrection from the dead. THAT is what separates him from all the spiritual talkers.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 01:40 PM   #78
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by prophets before him, yes. But what I am mainly referring to is what Jesus said about himself. That he would do certain things, but here is the clencher, HE BACKED IT ALL UP. The entire strength of Christ is in his resurrection from the dead. THAT is what separates him from all the spiritual talkers.
what about this one:

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This sound a lot like the story of Jesus. But his name is supposed to be Emmanuel. Maybe you should be a jew who is still waiting for Emmanuel.

wait, sorry, this wasn't a prophecy of Jesus. but it was in the bible, which is supposed to be the literal word of God.

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Old April 30th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #79
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what about this one:

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This sound a lot like the story of Jesus. But his name is supposed to be Emmanuel. Maybe you should be a jew who is still waiting for Emmanuel.

wait, sorry, this wasn't a prophecy of Jesus. but it was in the bible, which is supposed to be the literal word of God.
Jesus was known by many things, Emmanuel being one of them. He was also called King of the Jews, as it was inscribed at the top of the cross to which he died. He was known as Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus of Galilee (which Nazareth was located in).

That is referencing a phrophesy that occured before he was born, and believe me, there are HUNDREDS that he fulfilled, and he fulfilled them all. But what I am referencing is specifically what Jesus CLAIMED. He said to people that he himself was God. He said that he was there for a particular pupose, and his actions supported that. More importantly, he foretold that he would be killed and then later rise from the grave. There are solid reasons to actually believe that Jesus rose from the grave. His resurrection is what separates him, his resurrection is what validates him.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 02:13 PM   #80
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Maybe because I didn't have a prepossession to equate what I am hearing as god.....? Look, if he's that almighty powerful and wants to say something to me, I'm sure he/she/it would make themselves heard. "near-complete silence"..... Please
Yeah, And all those pastors that have preached on this very basic concept of Christian Theology no absoultly nothing. It would be easy for him to just speak. Then we coudl end this stupid debate because we would have auidble evidence. It delites God for us to seek him. If you want to make fun of that idea, Then stop debating on this subject because it's about Christian theology and believe it or not, Christians know more about thier theology then you do.
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