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Old October 21st, 2013, 10:24 PM   #1021
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Says the guy who sells the parts...... Lol
Haha, beat me to that!
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 05:28 AM   #1022
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Since Dale can't sell me any of those parts, I don't think he is pimping parts but rather giving solid advice. I bought the gears and axle shaft direct.

Looks like my Christmas list went to shit.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 06:33 AM   #1023
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Opinions on reusing or replacing the shaft, especially knowing that I am ditching the spool & going to a locker?
(

You are going to have pretty much the same issue with a locker. The locker really only unlocks when you are off the gas / with little torque going thru the drive shaft. Even engine braking can lock up a locker. Sounds to me like you need non-sticky tires or a selectable locker. And of course bigger and more expensive parts.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 06:46 AM   #1024
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I've always understood that a locker will let the outside radius tire spin faster but not slower, which is why axles with lockers are far less likely to chirp when going around tight corners. If that is not the case, why do lockers work, especially in the front end? My Detroit never binds up on sharp turns on pavement & I've been running drive flanges for years. I can tell you that when I ran the spool up front for about 6 months....... it sucked.

I can't say that I have anything to complain about. This gearset and axles have been in since 2007 and I have been running the stickies for 3 or 4 years. Who knows how long the axle has been twisted, maybe since before the stickies.... Same with the chipped tooth. It is not a fresh break.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 06:51 AM   #1025
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My understanding is that with no power applied, a tire can spin faster and the clutch/gear allows this "slip". When power is applied, it "locks" and prevents any difference in tire speed. If you've ever turned a long sweeping corner with a rear locker you either coast the turn or power through, if you do a mix it pops and jerks throuh the corner.

My opinion is the same as green's, I think some nice low pinion dana 60's are the solution!

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Old October 22nd, 2013, 06:55 AM   #1026
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The shaft has been yielded, the torsional strength has been severely compromised. The shaft has failed. That being said if I did not have the cash to replace it, id run it. As long as it wont destroy the locker when it decides to fracture.

Ring and pinion on the other hand is not usable. Pinion is probably chewed and deflected out of spec. Ring gear is trash, but hey it cant hurt much to run it.

If you are going to a new locker I would replace those shafts.

What third do you have? High strength one? If not put that on the christmas list too...nevermind I just read what you have...hi-9

dare I say 14bolt?

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Old October 22nd, 2013, 07:46 AM   #1027
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There is a arb for 35 spline 9" on here for 800$
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 07:57 AM   #1028
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Originally Posted by lgottler View Post
My understanding is that with no power applied, a tire can spin faster and the clutch/gear allows this "slip". When power is applied, it "locks" and prevents any difference in tire speed. If you've ever turned a long sweeping corner with a rear locker you either coast the turn or power through, if you do a mix it pops and jerks through the corner.

My opinion is the same as green's, I think some nice low pinion dana 60's are the solution!
I don't know about you but I am not always under power when driving on pavement. Typically when turning a tight corner, I am decelerating. Not always but most of the time. If the locker will allow "some" movement and eliminate torsional bind, in addition to being aware of it, I believe the risk is greatly reduced. Ever since I figured out what twisted my driveshaft, I have been much more conscious of tight turns on pavement and have done my best to not make extremely tight turns. I don't believe the issue is on a highway type radius, but rather a tight one when like pulling into a parking space. (that's when I twisted the driveshaft) Maybe I can drive like Tim Cameron and constantly blip the throttle to keep it unloaded.

Why would I want a low pinion 60? Low pinion sucks, the 60 is no stronger than the Hi-9 and the axle shafts are no bigger. Plus, it just adds a bunch of work for no gain. I've wheeled this setup all over the country in some of the most extreme trails available for several years without a failure. Finding a potential problem during routine maintenance is no reason to rush into major changes.

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The shaft has been yielded, the torsional strength has been severely compromised. The shaft has failed. That being said if I did not have the cash to replace it, id run it. As long as it wont destroy the locker when it decides to fracture.

Ring and pinion on the other hand is not usable. Pinion is probably chewed and deflected out of spec. Ring gear is trash, but hey it cant hurt much to run it.

If you are going to a new locker I would replace those shafts.

What third do you have? High strength one? If not put that on the christmas list too...nevermind I just read what you have...hi-9

dare I say 14bolt?
You are absolutely right about the shaft. I don't even know why I posed the question. Thankfully only one side is twisted but I don't know if Moser will sell an individual. (website sells in pairs) I didn't even consider reusing the ring gear.


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There is a arb for 35 spline 9" on here for 800$
I saw that. Problem #1, the Grizzly locker is already purchased. Problem #2, I'm running out of cash.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 08:00 AM   #1029
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Problem #2, I'm running out of cash.
street corners are quite barren this time of year
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 08:03 AM   #1030
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I've always understood that a locker will let the outside radius tire spin faster but not slower, which is why axles with lockers are far less likely to chirp when going around tight corners. If that is not the case, why do lockers work, especially in the front end? My Detroit never binds up on sharp turns on pavement & I've been running drive flanges for years. I can tell you that when I ran the spool up front for about 6 months....... it sucked.
Lockers will only unlock when there is less than X amount of torque on the drive shaft in either acceleration or deceleration. The X amount of torque depends on the springs and ramps in the locker, and tire diameter plays a part in how the locker reacts too. It doesn't take much torque for the locker to lock and stay locked. The faster spinning tire theory is under acceleration with very low torque on the D shaft, it reacts opposite under decel conditions. When running it in the front end and in 2 wheel drive, theoretically the locker never locks and your rig will drive fine, even with flanges. Put it in 4x4 and now it doesn't turn, it will act like a spool even when a spool is in two wheel drive.

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Old October 22nd, 2013, 08:14 AM   #1031
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Understood on all the acel, decel theory. BUT......... it does unlock in some circumstances. Are you saying that in the parking lot scenario that it "WILL NOT HELP, guaranteed 100%" or "MAY NOT HELP & may be a waste of money"? Remember, no failure in 6 years with the current setup, just a fatigue & chipped tooth. With a better awareness, plus the locker, I believe the risk is reduced.

True on the front being in 2wd. But I have noticed a difference offroad wheeling too. Tight & twisty stuff is much easier with the Detroit than with the spool. Like night & day.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 08:31 AM   #1032
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Just for the offroad ability where you take the jeep more I would go locker. I too have a spool in the front and hate it on tight trails where I seem to be mostly. No assist either

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Old October 22nd, 2013, 08:34 AM   #1033
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Wait wait wait. Hold the boat here.

I just reread back a couple pages. Jim, you are saying you twisted a driveshaft in the parking lot, not an axleshaft? Am I reading right?

If that is the case I believe that had nothing to do with your rear being locked, unlocked, spooled, etc. The only "stressfull" torsional torque should be on the axleshafts, as they are being forced to attempt to turn the different speeds whilst turning (the twisted axleshaft).

The only extra stress the driveshaft would be under would be the torque required to physically get the axle to get your "sticky" tires to skip a bit around a corner.

Now how would this be any more stress than say doing a burnout in a drag car, where you are breaking loose both tires, or even the torque required on rocks, or pulling someone on the trail?

I honestly think the broken driveshaft was a complete coincidence in this equation. Something else must have gone wrong, or it was already damaged/binding somehow. Same goes for the chipped ring gear (which indicates probable setup issues)

I could be totally wrong, but thats my two cents.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 09:10 AM   #1034
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Understood on all the acel, decel theory. BUT......... it does unlock in some circumstances. Are you saying that in the parking lot scenario that it "WILL NOT HELP, guaranteed 100%" or "MAY NOT HELP & may be a waste of money"? Remember, no failure in 6 years with the current setup, just a fatigue & chipped tooth. With a better awareness, plus the locker, I believe the risk is reduced.

True on the front being in 2wd. But I have noticed a difference offroad wheeling too. Tight & twisty stuff is much easier with the Detroit than with the spool. Like night & day.
The locker will help the parking lot situation for sure, as long as you are coasting (not on throttle, not engine braking). The locker works better in the trails because when you lift off the throttle (even for a moment) while going thru tight turns, it can allow the axle shafts to "reset" and the tires to spin independently, where you get zero forgiveness from a spool. My only point was that if the axle shaft twisted due to your parking lot maneuver with the spool, it will most likely happen again with the locker, but it sounds like it may just have been time (fatigue life) for those shafts to fail. Route55 is pretty much correct on the drive shaft issue, but a spool could put a little more stress on the drive shaft just because the engine is still trying to get the slower tire to slip while a locker could eliminate that extra torque required to make it slip / move the jeep.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 09:21 AM   #1035
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Green, since he has an automatic wouldn't he always be coasting or engine braking if not under throttle? I think the only way for him to truely "be in neutral" would be to actually put the tranny in neutral while turning. Or swap in a manual!
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 10:01 AM   #1036
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Green, since he has an automatic wouldn't he always be coasting or engine braking if not under throttle? I think the only way for him to truely "be in neutral" would be to actually put the tranny in neutral while turning. Or swap in a manual!
There is a certain amount of torque required to lock it up, so the torque converter might "coast" under that amount of torque required. I always had a manual with my lockers. I have not yet had lockers in my auto rig so I am not sure. Even with front lockers, my rig was a bitch to turn in tight turns running 40" Iroks and I have never had stickies.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 10:21 AM   #1037
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Is the locker as foolproof as a selectable locker? No
Is the locker better than the spool? Yes

Regarding the driveshaft issue, maybe some clarification would help, as I believe it is all tied together. The intent here is not to sound like I am super cool with stickies. However, having run them for some time now, I have found that there are times where they stick like glue......... they are truly amazing at times at how much traction they produce, and even moreso when they are wet.

My specific parking lot episode went like this. We were in St Helen to run the motorsport area. It was raining and I was already aired down to run the trail. At the last minute, we needed to run into town to the drug store. Driving to the store was fine. When we got to the store, they had freshly repaved it. As soon as I pulled in the back of the jeep started to lurch. Bottom line, the spool and sticky tires wanted to go straight. I pulled into a parking spot and it was bucking as I turned like crazy. Same thing leaving. As we headed down the road, I had a terrible vibration. I stopped & crawled under and my slip spline on the driveshaft was twisted........... not broken as someone above said, twisted. There was nothing wrong with the driveshaft when the jeep was loaded onto the trailer. A couple miles later on pavement, it was twisted bad.

My belief is that the tires did not want to break loose on the pavement and the torque required to drive the axle twisted the spline on the driveshaft since it was not as strong as the 35 spline alloy axle shafts. It was not driveshaft fatigue nor is the twisted spline on the axle shaft fatigue. I believe it is a result of an event, or two or three. Especially since the other side looks perfect.

Now, you will jump on the bandwagon and say "see, you are driving the axle in the parking lot so you won't see any change". I disagree as a locker is known to allow an outer tire to spin faster. In addition, since this happened, I have been very conscious about making really tight turns on pavement. I have tried to not turn as sharp and to get a bit of a roll before I turn hoping that the tires don't grab as well, since they are proven to have a lot more traction in a static condition than dynamic.

Between understanding it more and the locker that will release in some conditions, I expect to have an improvement. If someone would like to buy an ARB for me, I'd be happy to sell the Grizzly in exchange.

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The locker will help the parking lot situation for sure, as long as you are coasting (not on throttle, not engine braking). The locker works better in the trails because when you lift off the throttle (even for a moment) while going thru tight turns, it can allow the axle shafts to "reset" and the tires to spin independently, where you get zero forgiveness from a spool. My only point was that if the axle shaft twisted due to your parking lot maneuver with the spool, it will most likely happen again with the locker, but it sounds like it may just have been time (fatigue life) for those shafts to fail. Route55 is pretty much correct on the drive shaft issue, but a spool could put a little more stress on the drive shaft just because the engine is still trying to get the slower tire to slip while a locker could eliminate that extra torque required to make it slip / move the jeep.
This is the key to my thinking. On and off the throttle (hence my Tim Cameron comment) should help.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 10:27 AM   #1038
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Jim

My advice is to get a new R&P and get better shafts. Those shafts have no neckdown so they are twisting right at the splines. A properly made axle shaft will have a necked down section that is slightly smaller then the splines are cut into the shaft. That is why stock 14B shafts work pretty good with the neckdown in the 1.35" range. A good axle shaft has to be designed to twist in the right spot.

my 2 cents
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 10:33 AM   #1039
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Eric,
If I'm not mistaken, the 35 spline 9" shaft has no body to neck down. It's pretty much the same diameter right up to the bearing journal. Moser has always been a top notch shaft but I am open to suggestions.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 10:47 AM   #1040
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Why would I want a low pinion 60? Low pinion sucks, the 60 is no stronger than the Hi-9 and the axle shafts are no bigger. Plus, it just adds a bunch of work for no gain. I've wheeled this setup all over the country in some of the most extreme trails available for several years without a failure. Finding a potential problem during routine maintenance is no reason to rush into major changes.
I was joking...I run low pinion 60's and am willing to trade for your axles!
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