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Old April 23rd, 2008, 05:22 PM   #21
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I wasn't trying to insult you, but it's my opinion that you must be a kool-aid drinking if you like Obama, he has no substance as a leader. He is hot air in a nice suit.

To answer your question, no I spend probably to an hour a day keeping up with politics, I have been for many years now. Knowing who I am voting for is important to me.

So casting aside your attempts to minimize the validity of my opinion, here it is, since you asked....

None of them represent the people. They are all loyal only to more government(meaning more power). All of them.

Obama is, in the opinion of many including myself, the worst, most liberal, big government candidate running. That's saying a lot considering Clinton and McCain are his competition. His answer to every problem facing the nation is more government and/or redistribution of wealth. I don't have one good thing to say about the man.

Why don't you tell us all what is that makes you want to vote for him? Assuming from your professed love for the man, that he is your candidate, of course.

Now I am all ears!
Honestly I was part of the Draft Gore campaign, but he isn't having any part of it. John Kerry should have run again now that the so-called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were exposed as the liars they were.

I respect them, and Obama, partly because they don't participate in the cronie capitalist politics. If you spend any time reading their sites and seeing what they're about, I mean, come on..... Wanting to give tax breaks to companies that STAY in America and hire Americans is too liberal for you? Then move to China with all the corporations that have deserted us and took their tax breaks with them. And good riddance to all of you. I want FAIR trade, not FREE trade. I want companies that stay in America to have incentives, and those that export jobs to have to do it at their own damn risk and expense. And those that are caught with illegal aliens in their employ, whether they knew or not, should be fined 10 times the CEO's annual salary.

I'm tired of the loyalties being in the wrong place and we're getting screwed for it. How many of you are doing better than you were before W was in office?


Here is some interesting history on loyalties and interesting coincidences/ironies for thought:

When Reagan was young he became famous by being the host of General Electric Theater (on the newfangled teevee). GE continued to back him in all sorts of fame gaining ventures including political speaking tours and his election to governor of California. GE were his best buddies then, and when he was elected pres, what happened during his regime? That's right, the nuclear arms race was at it's highest peak. Who was the number 1 producer of nuclear warheads then? That's right. GE. Russia was never a threat. Any attack would have been suicide. Now that we can freely move about the continent we are discovering that most of the scare was fake, and that what they did have in the form of a nuclear buildup was a JOKE compared to ours.

When Jesse Jackson and Bill Clinton were running they were both videotaped swearing that if they were backed by the collective of S&L and financial institutions, that they would remain loyal if elected. What happened when Clinton was president? That's right. The S&L scandal.

H.W. Bush was head of the CIA and VP to Reagan. During his office we had the Iran-Contra scandal, and it was not only found that the Contras were financing their operations by trafficking cocaine into the U.S., but numerous reports, many first-hand, pointed to CIA involvement. Why were the Contras doing this? Because Americans (popular opinion) said "hell no" we won't pay for the takeover of South America by a hostile government, and their aid was cut off, so the CIA went behind our backs and worked with them anyway. And guess what was a BIG moneymaker and tax spending pit during his regime....? That's right, the "War on Drugs".... The one's the CIA was bringing in maybe? Maybe a litte?

H.W. Bush was also an oil man. He had major holdings and family history with big oil and the Saudi royal family. When Saddam Hussein accused Saudi of horizontal drilling and stealing their oil the Saudi's told Hussein to pound sand and went to H.W. for protection. Hussein attacked, and so did we. Hussein insisted that the people that should benefit from Iraq's oil should be the Iraqi people (imagine that) and NOT the Saudi royal family and the 5 oil companies (sounds like the 5 families in The Godfather). This was unacceptable. Attempts to have him assasinated failed (just like Castro). Then 9/11, and whoa! H.W.'s son (now president) says "Iraq is behind 9/11!" Lie. "Iraq has WMD's" (even though the U.N. inspectors insisted there were none) Lie. "He's cruel to his people so we need to attack!" (then why don't we attack East Timor, or Africa?). "We need to spread democracy"......... Okay.... Then let's attack China, or Poland, or every other country that doesn't have a governement we approve of.

Now there's young W..... W is a an oil man (see Arbusto Energy for one of his dubious business ventures) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbusto_Energy Read the first 2 paragraphs of this link (or all of it if you're so inclined).
Arbusto was immersed in scandal throughout the venture (see Khalid bin Mahfouz and click on his name and read about his links to Al Queda). W brought in Condoleeza Rice who was a Chevron Director from 1991 to 2001 when she was transferred by W to National Security Adviser. She had an oil supertanker named after her for christs sake!

Another Chevron Corporation giant in the Bush administration is Vice President Dick Cheney. Cheney was Chairman and Chief Executive of Halliburton, the world’s largest oil field services company with multi-billion dollar contracts with oil corporations including Chevron. Lawrence Eagleburger, a seasoned Bush counselor who held top State Department posts under George Bush Sr., is a director of Halliburton Corporation. And what's the big news during this regime? That's right. Haliburton.... And guess where they're moving their headquarters.... To Dubai (and they're taking their no-bid contracts and tax breaks with them). Now, look at a map of the Persian Gulf and see where Dubai is (Abu Dhabi) and see where it is in relation to Afghanistan, and Iraq, and Iran.... Now you see why the corporate owned media is the cheerleading section for the Attack Iran bandwagon. Oh, and I forgot to mention, you know what Haliburton is dong the MOST in Iraq? Hmmmm? That's right. DRILLING FOR OIL. That's what they DO, after all, and they do it WELL (no pun intended).

You know what's really interesting? Now that we've attacked Iraq, who was helping to supress the opium trade coming out of Afghanistan, the #1 cash crop has skyrocketed, and now opiates (heroine) are abundant all over the world.... Especially significant is it's sudden epidemic resurgence throughout the U.S.! Now how can that be if we are blocking them from leaving their country, especially with such substances....? I wonder.... CIA again maybe? They've already admitted to such antics in the past.....

Another old, but interesting commentary: http://www.counterpunch.org/turnipmimic.html

Obama is our only hope of at least getting away from this cronie, organized crime style of political RULE, and back to REPRESENTATION BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.

I am willing to bet that you don't have one good thing to say about Obama because you haven't even READ anything by him. At least go to his website and read the things he puts out there. Don't tell ME you're all ears when you are clearly expressing a closed mind on the subject. That's more foolish than you must think I am. Open your ears, open your eyes, and open your mind. Read something, then let's talk. I'll be happy to read about whomever you want me to read about. Go ahead and name them.

Last edited by AGoodBuzz; April 23rd, 2008 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention....
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 05:37 PM   #22
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Obama is our only hope of at least getting away from this cronie, organized crime style of political RULE, and back to REPRESENTATION BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.
Obama has done NOTHING. He can say whatever he wants.

Just because I tell someone I can shit rainbows and $100 bills doesn't mean I can actually do it.
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 06:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Honestly I was part of the Draft Gore campaign, but he isn't having any part of it. John Kerry should have run again now that the so-called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were exposed as the liars they were.

I respect them, and Obama, partly because they don't participate in the cronie capitalist politics. If you spend any time reading their sites and seeing what they're about, I mean, come on..... Wanting to give tax breaks to companies that STAY in America and hire Americans is too liberal for you? Then move to China with all the corporations that have deserted us and took their tax breaks with them. And good riddance to all of you. I want FAIR trade, not FREE trade. I want companies that stay in America to have incentives, and those that export jobs to have to do it at their own damn risk and expense. And those that are caught with illegal aliens in their employ, whether they knew or not, should be fined 10 times the CEO's annual salary.

I'm tired of the loyalties being in the wrong place and we're getting screwed for it. How many of you are doing better than you were before W was in office?


Here is some interesting history on loyalties and interesting coincidences/ironies for thought:

When Reagan was young he became famous by being the host of General Electric Theater (on the newfangled teevee). GE continued to back him in all sorts of fame gaining ventures including political speaking tours and his election to governor of California. GE were his best buddies then, and when he was elected pres, what happened during his regime? That's right, the nuclear arms race was at it's highest peak. Who was the number 1 producer of nuclear warheads then? That's right. GE. Russia was never a threat. Any attack would have been suicide. Now that we can freely move about the continent we are discovering that most of the scare was fake, and that what they did have in the form of a nuclear buildup was a JOKE compared to ours.

When Jesse Jackson and Bill Clinton were running they were both videotaped swearing that if they were backed by the collective of S&L and financial institutions, that they would remain loyal if elected. What happened when Clinton was president? That's right. The S&L scandal.

H.W. Bush was head of the CIA and VP to Reagan. During his office we had the Iran-Contra scandal, and it was not only found that the Contras were financing their operations by trafficking cocaine into the U.S., but numerous reports, many first-hand, pointed to CIA involvement. Why were the Contras doing this? Because Americans (popular opinion) said "hell no" we won't pay for the takeover of South America by a hostile government, and their aid was cut off, so the CIA went behind our backs and worked with them anyway. And guess what was a BIG moneymaker and tax spending pit during his regime....? That's right, the "War on Drugs".... The one's the CIA was bringing in maybe? Maybe a litte?

H.W. Bush was also an oil man. He had major holdings and family history with big oil and the Saudi royal family. When Saddam Hussein accused Saudi of horizontal drilling and stealing their oil the Saudi's told Hussein to pound sand and went to H.W. for protection. Hussein attacked, and so did we. Hussein insisted that the people that should benefit from Iraq's oil should be the Iraqi people (imagine that) and NOT the Saudi royal family and the 5 oil companies (sounds like the 5 families in The Godfather). This was unacceptable. Attempts to have him assasinated failed (just like Castro). Then 9/11, and whoa! H.W.'s son (now president) says "Iraq is behind 9/11!" Lie. "Iraq has WMD's" (even though the U.N. inspectors insisted there were none) Lie. "He's cruel to his people so we need to attack!" (then why don't we attack East Timor, or Africa?). "We need to spread democracy"......... Okay.... Then let's attack China, or Poland, or every other country that doesn't have a governement we approve of.

Now there's young W..... W is a an oil man (see Arbusto Energy for one of his dubious business ventures) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbusto_Energy Read the first 2 paragraphs of this link (or all of it if you're so inclined).
Arbusto was immersed in scandal throughout the venture (see Khalid bin Mahfouz and click on his name and read about his links to Al Queda). W brought in Condoleeza Rice who was a Chevron Director from 1991 to 2001 when she was transferred by W to National Security Adviser. She had an oil supertanker named after her for christs sake!

Another Chevron Corporation giant in the Bush administration is Vice President Dick Cheney. Cheney was Chairman and Chief Executive of Halliburton, the world’s largest oil field services company with multi-billion dollar contracts with oil corporations including Chevron. Lawrence Eagleburger, a seasoned Bush counselor who held top State Department posts under George Bush Sr., is a director of Halliburton Corporation. And what's the big news during this regime? That's right. Haliburton.... And guess where they're moving their headquarters.... To Dubai (and they're taking their no-bid contracts and tax breaks with them). Now, look at a map of the Persian Gulf and see where Dubai is (Abu Dhabi) and see where it is in relation to Afghanistan, and Iraq, and Iran.... Now you see why the corporate owned media is the cheerleading section for the Attack Iran bandwagon. Oh, and I forgot to mention, you know what Haliburton is dong the MOST in Iraq? Hmmmm? That's right. DRILLING FOR OIL. That's what they DO, after all, and they do it WELL (no pun intended).

You know what's really interesting? Now that we've attacked Iraq, who was helping to supress the opium trade coming out of Afghanistan, the #1 cash crop has skyrocketed, and now opiates (heroine) are abundant all over the world.... Especially significant is it's sudden epidemic resurgence throughout the U.S.! Now how can that be if we are blocking them from leaving their country, especially with such substances....? I wonder.... CIA again maybe? They've already admitted to such antics in the past.....

Another old, but interesting commentary: http://www.counterpunch.org/turnipmimic.html

Obama is our only hope of at least getting away from this cronie, organized crime style of political RULE, and back to REPRESENTATION BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.

I am willing to bet that you don't have one good thing to say about Obama because you haven't even READ anything by him. At least go to his website and read the things he puts out there. Don't tell ME you're all ears when you are clearly expressing a closed mind on the subject. That's more foolish than you must think I am. Open your ears, open your eyes, and open your mind. Read something, then let's talk. I'll be happy to read about whomever you want me to read about. Go ahead and name them.

I really hate to drop this bomb on you but George Bush ain't running, and all the poo poo about George Bush dosen't make Obama anymore appealing.

I do like the article about all the lobyists that are working in his organization but I guess the blinders you have on prevented you from reading that.

I'll have to read Obama's advertisement, opps I mean website, I'm sure it's all true because he say's so.

I do have one question. How many of you are doing better that when Jimmy Carter was in office?
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 09:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Honestly I was part of the Draft Gore campaign, but he isn't having any part of it. John Kerry should have run again now that the so-called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were exposed as the liars they were.

I respect them, and Obama, partly because they don't participate in the cronie capitalist politics. If you spend any time reading their sites and seeing what they're about, I mean, come on..... Wanting to give tax breaks to companies that STAY in America and hire Americans is too liberal for you? Then move to China with all the corporations that have deserted us and took their tax breaks with them. And good riddance to all of you. I want FAIR trade, not FREE trade. I want companies that stay in America to have incentives, and those that export jobs to have to do it at their own damn risk and expense. And those that are caught with illegal aliens in their employ, whether they knew or not, should be fined 10 times the CEO's annual salary.

I'm tired of the loyalties being in the wrong place and we're getting screwed for it. How many of you are doing better than you were before W was in office?


Here is some interesting history on loyalties and interesting coincidences/ironies for thought:

When Reagan was young he became famous by being the host of General Electric Theater (on the newfangled teevee). GE continued to back him in all sorts of fame gaining ventures including political speaking tours and his election to governor of California. GE were his best buddies then, and when he was elected pres, what happened during his regime? That's right, the nuclear arms race was at it's highest peak. Who was the number 1 producer of nuclear warheads then? That's right. GE. Russia was never a threat. Any attack would have been suicide. Now that we can freely move about the continent we are discovering that most of the scare was fake, and that what they did have in the form of a nuclear buildup was a JOKE compared to ours.

When Jesse Jackson and Bill Clinton were running they were both videotaped swearing that if they were backed by the collective of S&L and financial institutions, that they would remain loyal if elected. What happened when Clinton was president? That's right. The S&L scandal.

H.W. Bush was head of the CIA and VP to Reagan. During his office we had the Iran-Contra scandal, and it was not only found that the Contras were financing their operations by trafficking cocaine into the U.S., but numerous reports, many first-hand, pointed to CIA involvement. Why were the Contras doing this? Because Americans (popular opinion) said "hell no" we won't pay for the takeover of South America by a hostile government, and their aid was cut off, so the CIA went behind our backs and worked with them anyway. And guess what was a BIG moneymaker and tax spending pit during his regime....? That's right, the "War on Drugs".... The one's the CIA was bringing in maybe? Maybe a litte?

H.W. Bush was also an oil man. He had major holdings and family history with big oil and the Saudi royal family. When Saddam Hussein accused Saudi of horizontal drilling and stealing their oil the Saudi's told Hussein to pound sand and went to H.W. for protection. Hussein attacked, and so did we. Hussein insisted that the people that should benefit from Iraq's oil should be the Iraqi people (imagine that) and NOT the Saudi royal family and the 5 oil companies (sounds like the 5 families in The Godfather). This was unacceptable. Attempts to have him assasinated failed (just like Castro). Then 9/11, and whoa! H.W.'s son (now president) says "Iraq is behind 9/11!" Lie. "Iraq has WMD's" (even though the U.N. inspectors insisted there were none) Lie. "He's cruel to his people so we need to attack!" (then why don't we attack East Timor, or Africa?). "We need to spread democracy"......... Okay.... Then let's attack China, or Poland, or every other country that doesn't have a governement we approve of.

Now there's young W..... W is a an oil man (see Arbusto Energy for one of his dubious business ventures) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbusto_Energy Read the first 2 paragraphs of this link (or all of it if you're so inclined).
Arbusto was immersed in scandal throughout the venture (see Khalid bin Mahfouz and click on his name and read about his links to Al Queda). W brought in Condoleeza Rice who was a Chevron Director from 1991 to 2001 when she was transferred by W to National Security Adviser. She had an oil supertanker named after her for christs sake!

Another Chevron Corporation giant in the Bush administration is Vice President Dick Cheney. Cheney was Chairman and Chief Executive of Halliburton, the world’s largest oil field services company with multi-billion dollar contracts with oil corporations including Chevron. Lawrence Eagleburger, a seasoned Bush counselor who held top State Department posts under George Bush Sr., is a director of Halliburton Corporation. And what's the big news during this regime? That's right. Haliburton.... And guess where they're moving their headquarters.... To Dubai (and they're taking their no-bid contracts and tax breaks with them). Now, look at a map of the Persian Gulf and see where Dubai is (Abu Dhabi) and see where it is in relation to Afghanistan, and Iraq, and Iran.... Now you see why the corporate owned media is the cheerleading section for the Attack Iran bandwagon. Oh, and I forgot to mention, you know what Haliburton is dong the MOST in Iraq? Hmmmm? That's right. DRILLING FOR OIL. That's what they DO, after all, and they do it WELL (no pun intended).

You know what's really interesting? Now that we've attacked Iraq, who was helping to supress the opium trade coming out of Afghanistan, the #1 cash crop has skyrocketed, and now opiates (heroine) are abundant all over the world.... Especially significant is it's sudden epidemic resurgence throughout the U.S.! Now how can that be if we are blocking them from leaving their country, especially with such substances....? I wonder.... CIA again maybe? They've already admitted to such antics in the past.....

Another old, but interesting commentary: http://www.counterpunch.org/turnipmimic.html

Obama is our only hope of at least getting away from this cronie, organized crime style of political RULE, and back to REPRESENTATION BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.

I am willing to bet that you don't have one good thing to say about Obama because you haven't even READ anything by him. At least go to his website and read the things he puts out there. Don't tell ME you're all ears when you are clearly expressing a closed mind on the subject. That's more foolish than you must think I am. Open your ears, open your eyes, and open your mind. Read something, then let's talk. I'll be happy to read about whomever you want me to read about. Go ahead and name them.

Instead of typing all that, you could have just said "I have nothing useful to add."
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Old April 24th, 2008, 07:35 AM   #25
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Thanx for the above.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 09:28 AM   #26
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I really hate to drop this bomb on you but George Bush ain't running, and all the poo poo about George Bush dosen't make Obama anymore appealing.

I do like the article about all the lobyists that are working in his organization but I guess the blinders you have on prevented you from reading that.

I'll have to read Obama's advertisement, opps I mean website, I'm sure it's all true because he say's so.

I do have one question. How many of you are doing better that when Jimmy Carter was in office?
Of course W is not running for reelection. Where did I even mention that Mr. Toes?

I read the article. If you read the article too and you refer to "all the lobbyists", tell us how many lobbyists he has in his employ. And while you're at it, tell us who they used to lobby for. Then let's talk about how every campaign has lobbyists in them.

Yes, his website is an advertisement, just like everyone elses. I said "at least" read that. He has books out too you know. BTW, he voted AGAINST the Iraq war because he was skeptical about everything that was being said, and he turned out to be right on all counts.

Do you know John McCain's history? Do you know what he stood for before or what he stands for now? Remember the old "flip-flop" thing that W used a while back? Well guess what... McCain is a HUGE flip-flopper. At least Obama has been consistent.

Hillary is a joke. I wouldn't vote for her if you put a gun to my head. She's a liar and involved in way too many shady dealings. She'll say anything to get elected, then I suspect will do whatever she wants once in office, now that W has raised the bar with regard to how badly you can abuse power. He seems to think that the other two branches of governement are only there to do his bidding...... Imagine what Hillary would do with that power.... OMFG.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 12:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
I really hate to drop this bomb on you but George Bush ain't running, and all the poo poo about George Bush dosen't make Obama anymore appealing.

I do like the article about all the lobyists that are working in his organization but I guess the blinders you have on prevented you from reading that.

I'll have to read Obama's advertisement, opps I mean website, I'm sure it's all true because he say's so.

I do have one question. How many of you are doing better that when Jimmy Carter was in office?
I wasn't alive. Carters grain embargo's fucked my family out of a certified organic farm. Pops couldn't sell the shit he grew and break even. Can we say forclosure.

I want to know what any of these retards are going to do about the economy and jobs. I used to be proud to claim I was from Michigan. The only person who ever said anything about Michigan was Mitt Romney and he is long gone. Maybe he will come home and run for governor here. I doubt it though.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 12:02 PM   #28
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McCain is such a flip flopper he changed parties. If I am not mistaken didnt he used to be a Democrat not to long ago?
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Old April 24th, 2008, 12:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Honestly I want FAIR trade, not FREE trade. I want companies that stay in America to have incentives, and those that export jobs to have to do it at their own damn risk and expense. And those that are caught with illegal aliens in their employ, whether they knew or not, should be fined 10 times the CEO's annual salary.

I'm tired of the loyalties being in the wrong place and we're getting screwed for it. How many of you are doing better than you were before W was in office?
I am better off than before he was in office.

Fair trade? Fair according to who?

A free market is a fair market. If you don't understand that I suggest you read Anything by Milton Friedman. Another good read would be Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics.

Free trade is the cornerstone of a free market. The free market is a big part of what makes this country great.

It's a high tax rate that is driving business over seas not unfair trade.

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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
I am willing to bet that you don't have one good thing to say about Obama because you haven't even READ anything by him. At least go to his website and read the things he puts out there. Don't tell ME you're all ears when you are clearly expressing a closed mind on the subject. That's more foolish than you must think I am. Open your ears, open your eyes, and open your mind. Read something, then let's talk. I'll be happy to read about whomever you want me to read about. Go ahead and name them.
I don't think your foolish, I just think you are unaware of reality.

My mind isn't closed, it is educated. I've used that education to evaluate and reject Obama as a candidate. I could give you many reasons but here is the biggest reason.....

He is a facist Liberal, or a progressive socialist of you prefer. He believes in taking from one and giving it to another in the name of "fairness". In other words......"From each according to his ability to each according to his need."

A marxist.

What he really wants (like every good socialist does) is for you to depend on the government for everything. Giving them total power over the people.

If you think that is good for America, then I will end this conversation now as it would be pointless to continue.

If you really want to read a book that will open your eyes instead of the two above of try reading Liberal Facism.

After you read it get back to me.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 01:22 PM   #30
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Can I borrow your copy?
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Old April 24th, 2008, 05:32 PM   #31
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I am better off than before he was in office.

Fair trade? Fair according to who? How is it fair now when we don't have anything remotely resembling tariff parity, or trade restriction parity, or any such parity? If there are tariffs and restrictions put on our exports to China, for example, shouldn't we do the same to put pressure on them to remove them, instead of continuing on the same path? Our decision makers have the power to do this, and it seems that a lot of people complain about this inequity, yet they ignore us and let it get worse (at least , the Republicans do)

A free market is a fair market. One doesn't necessarily mean the other, but I know what you mean by that. However there is a difference between free market and unfettered capitalism. Don't you believe that htere is a community of people here that should have some level of shared resonsiblity to each other, rather than the decision makers making it easier for the big players to exploit the citizenry and the little players more difficult to get started or stay in business? If you don't understand that I suggest you read Anything by Milton Friedman. Been there. Done that. Maybe Ayn Rand next?Another good read would be Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. Is his any different than the textbooks we used in school?

Free trade is the cornerstone of a free market. The free market is a big part of what makes this country great. Great, maybe, but not a founding principle. And there is nothing free about NAFTA. You don't get free trade by creating a one world government. Following your logic so far would it be safe to presume that you would then be agreeable to eliminating our trade borders entirely and letting everyone cross freely?

It's a high tax rate that is driving business over seas not unfair trade. It's also low wages and the fact that if they EXPORT from those countries TO the U.S. they pay no tariffs TO the U.S., but if it is the other way around they get the shit taxed out of them by the foreign government. I don't know where you get your information from, and I'm sure that it is a factor in many decisions, but the two I've cited are by far the most valuable in financial terms. Their employees have to pay income taxes, and so should they because, if you read your history, you will understand that a corporation was originally founded to be 1. A temporary collective for whatever purpose, build a bridge, etc., and 2. to be a "legal person". I invite you take this bit of history and expand on the original intent of corporations and let's see where it leads.



I don't think your foolish, I just think you are unaware of reality. What's the difference?

My mind isn't closed, it is educated. Set on a particular opinion based on what you have learned SO FAR. I've used that education to evaluate and reject Obama as a candidate. I could give you many reasons but here is the biggest reason.....

He is a facist That's what you call him, but he has never made that claim, whereas Mussolini and Hitler did. Musollini himself wrote: "The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone.... " Hmmmmm.... Sounds like all the NeoCons that keep wanting to take away various freedoms in the name of their religion or whatever and tell everyone how to live their life. Sounds like the last 8 years of administration. Wanting to overthrow Roe V Wade when it was a Supreme Court decision because those that think the state should decide our freedoms won't accept the decision. Those that want to prevent gay marriage when it will have absolutely NO EFFECT on their own lives, but just because they think that they should be able to decide (in the name of their religion, of course).
Liberal, or a progressive socialist World of difference between fascism and socialsim.of you prefer. He believes in taking from one and giving it to another in the name of "fairness". In other words......"From each according to his ability to each according to his need." So now you are telling me what he believes? Show me where he has said that. If you are referring to his statements that those corporations that benefit by doing business in the U.S. need to give back to the people of the U.S. instead of exploit them and pollute their land, then yes. Do you prefer the latter then......?

A marxist.He's not a Marxist. Show me where he has cited Marx.

What he really wants (like every good socialist does) is for you to depend on the government for everything. Giving them total power over the people. You have no idea what socialsim is if you believe that. Look it up and read what's written, not what you've already decided it means.

If you think that is good for America, then I will end this conversation now as it would be pointless to continue. I am not a socialist, nor am I a fascist. I believe that the more one benefits from being in this country the more responsiblity they have to prevent harm, as they are more capable of it than one that has not benefitted at all. For example, if you own a little store in the middle of town, it wouuld be pretty hard for you to pollute the river (although you could dump used motor oil down the storm drain.); but if you own a huge factory that uses the river to ship and receive goods, you have a strong likelihood that you will cause pollution in that river. You should be held accountable and you, by virtue of the huge benefit you are getting from being by that river, should have to pay the cost of ensuring such accountability. After all, if you weren't there causing such risk to the people, we wouldn't have to keep an eye on you, now would we?

If you really want to read a book that will open your eyes instead of the two above of try reading Liberal Facism. I'll read that if you'll read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky

After you read it get back to me.
. P.S. Liberal Fascism, by definition, is an oxymoron.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 05:32 PM   #32
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McCain is such a flip flopper he changed parties. If I am not mistaken didnt he used to be a Democrat not to long ago?
I believe you are right!
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Old April 24th, 2008, 06:03 PM   #33
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I wasn't alive. Carters grain embargo's fucked my family out of a certified organic farm. Pops couldn't sell the shit he grew and break even. Can we say forclosure.

I want to know what any of these retards are going to do about the economy and jobs. I used to be proud to claim I was from Michigan. The only person who ever said anything about Michigan was Mitt Romney and he is long gone. Maybe he will come home and run for governor here. I doubt it though.
That sucks man. Sorry to hear that.

So far, for the last 8 years anyway, and longer if McCain is elected, we will continue to let other countries tariff and tax the shit out of our exports to them, but continue to expect to import to us without any restrictions.

Since China has loaned us so much money to finance the war instead of raising taxes like all leaders throughout world history have always done, Bush has managed to keep us from getting upset but also made a lot of deals that are selling us out. We owe China BIG, and we never did before. China isn't the only country quietly financing W's little oil grab either.

We need to take our country back. Tell China to f-off. If they want their money they can come and try to take it. We can conduct all kinds of trade within our own borders and be quite self-sufficient, have health care for eveyone, freedom to hunt, fish, wheel, etc. manufacture the things we need right here, etc. So if we have the capability to go to that extreme, then why are we making the ridiculous deals we're making in the name of "free trade"? Because those pushing for it want a one world government. We all scratch our heads and ask why one stupid deal after another is made.... So ask youself, since these people are educated and have the best of the best consulting with them, they must be planning to gain something I just don't see yet. What could it be?

Look at the strategic value of occupying and controlling the entire middle east, but still retaining the power to run the America's. This is tremendous power. Enough to wield over the rest of the globe and pull them in to the camp too, eventually. With the destabilized Eastern Block countries staggering from all the recent changes, they will be easy pickings.

Here is a link to a satellite image of Dubai, where Haliburton and the gang are moving: http://www.maplandia.com/united-arab...s/dubai/dubai/ Now, zoom out more and more until you see the territories surrounding the Persian Gulf. If you controlled Dubai you would control the Gulf, but Iran would never tolerate that, but that wouldn't matter if you could convince the people of America that we need to attack and defeat Iran. You could just say that they are terrorists, or that they have WMD's, or that they don't observe basic human rights.... hell, it worked for Iraq, and some people still actually believe all that.

Not only would you control the Gulf, but you would also control Afghanistans ability to trade, and could run their #1 export... Opium. Why would you control it? Because the vast majority of it ships WEST, not EAST.

If you've already seized control of Iraq you've just taken control of what Dick Cheney himself said about it, "The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies." There are countless articles on this subject. Here are a couple:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n20/holt01_.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ar-431114.html

The Saudi's have no army, so they will have little say, and far less bargaining power than they had before, so they are not significant to the larger goal. The Eastern Block countries, on the other hand, have immense firepower and a great strategic location, so if you can now control the oil they need you control THEM. If you control them, you control China. Being already settled in India, what is left? Eliminate the borders of North & South America and Canada and make it one continent and guess who gets to rule it? That's right. Those that are already working on making it happen. The signatores of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC), most of whom are already in office under Bush and Cheney, and who have been pushing that agenda since they got their wish that they stated in the PNAC document, "A 'catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor', in the form of the 9/11 tragedy.

There is far more afoot than what we see on the surface. Like Mr. Toes says, we need to throw all the bums out and take our country back.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 06:26 PM   #34
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Hey look AGoodBuzz is back.

Obama is an empty suit. He is the very personification of what's wrong with our political system: a slick-talking snake-oil salesman is a front-runner because he's never done anything.

Dubya - not perfect, but the best choice at the time. Had 9/11 occurred under a Gore administration I can't begin to fathom the madness that would've ensued, other than to say it would've been much, much worse. Sure, more countries would openly say they liked us, but far fewer would respect us. And it's better to be respected than liked.

Halliburton? Get over it. Halliburton is a business that specializes in doing routine things in non-routine and dangerous places. They help oil exploration and recovery companies do business in harsh environments and dangerous situations. They offer those same services to the U.S. government, as they did under several Presidential administrations of both parties. They're successful, and the current administration has a lot of ex-oil people in it. Does that mean Ivy League colleges were evil during the JFK administration?

I agree that we need to start putting ourselves and our people first, however. Maybe some NASA-like joint government/industry programs to develop (and then ruthlessly and relentlessly market across the world) alternative fuels technologies? Something we would develop, perfect, and build here, with some good, old-fashioned protectionist legislation just like Japan and Korea...
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Old April 25th, 2008, 08:21 AM   #35
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Hey look AGoodBuzz is back.

Obama is an empty suit. He is the very personification of what's wrong with our political system: a slick-talking snake-oil salesman is a front-runner because he's never done anything.

Dubya - not perfect, but the best choice at the time. Had 9/11 occurred under a Gore administration I can't begin to fathom the madness that would've ensued, other than to say it would've been much, much worse. Sure, more countries would openly say they liked us, but far fewer would respect us. And it's better to be respected than liked.

Halliburton? Get over it. Halliburton is a business that specializes in doing routine things in non-routine and dangerous places. They help oil exploration and recovery companies do business in harsh environments and dangerous situations. They offer those same services to the U.S. government, as they did under several Presidential administrations of both parties. They're successful, and the current administration has a lot of ex-oil people in it. Does that mean Ivy League colleges were evil during the JFK administration?

I agree that we need to start putting ourselves and our people first, however. Maybe some NASA-like joint government/industry programs to develop (and then ruthlessly and relentlessly market across the world) alternative fuels technologies? Something we would develop, perfect, and build here, with some good, old-fashioned protectionist legislation just like Japan and Korea...
Interesting, but I'm not sure what your point was. You are right about what Halilburton is, but my complaint is that they will be a Dubai based corporation now, but with full U.S. corporate privileges. If Ford moved to China but wanted all the privileges of a U.S. corporation, would you approve? Please tell us yes or no. If not, then why Haliburton?

There is no way of knowing, and unfair to speculate either way, as to what might have happened had someone else been president on 9/11, so we need to look at what DID happen:

W just sat there while the kids kept reading,

W and his administration ignored warnings of Bin Laden planning airline attacks on U.S. soil (several intelligence officials provided testimony to and documentation of such),

we attacked the wrong country,

we never got Bin Laden and W even said he doesn't spend much time thinking about it,

we were lied to about WMD's and the W administration was almost exposed so they pulled the weapons inspectors before they could make a final report that there were none, to this day the inspectors keep saying that they told the administration, the press and U.N. that there was nothing there (I used to hear and see this on the noncorporate news sources all the time), and now our own military has proven them right,

Haliburton is over there drilling like mad for oil, but we are not reaping any benefit from it,

with Iraq out of commission Afghanistans opium trade is BOOMING, and U.S. heroine use is at an all time high (no pun intended),

we are in the worst economic coondition since the depression,

foreclosures are at an all time high,

homes are plummeting in value,

corporations are leaving the country,

wages are tumbling too,

unemployment is at an all time high,

more citizens are below the poverty line than since the depression,

all this happened with an 8 year run by a Republilcan president and a Republican house and senate. They had rubber-stamp control on pretty much everything, and look what happened.

Taxes are a necessary evil. Roads need to be maintained, bridges need to be built, controls need to be in place so we don't have total anarchy. Since W has been in office my taxes have gone UP. I am paying more than ever and getting squat back. Everyone that I know is experiencing the same thing (even the Republicans).

McCain has made it clear that he fully supports everything W has done while in office, and promises to continue on the identical path. Do you want to stay on the current course?

Hillary is a joke. If she wins I may have to leave the country.

Ron Paul can't win, but he would be my choice.

Obama can win, and may very well win, so rather than sit around and throw empty, baseless insults (like "empty suit") when he has a proven track record of standing up FOR THE PEOPLE and getting things done, and voting AGAINST attacking Iraq, maybe you could consider what he is saying: that he will be in office to serve US, represent US, do OUR bidding. Imagine that, an empty suit waiting for US to fill it. Government BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE. We don't need leaders, we need representatives. Would you know what to do if you had a president that was waiting for YOU to tell HIM what to do? What would be the first hing you would ask for? After you figure that out, check out his website and see if he is already talking about DOING IT. You may be pleasantly surpirsed.

Maybe the reason that the NeoCons don't want populist rule is because they are realizing that a new generation is taking over that wants things the "new way", so they would rather impose fascist rule to cling to their values....?

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 09:49 AM   #36
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Wow!! This has become quite an interesting thread!!
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Old April 25th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #37
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Wow!! This has become quite an interesting thread!!
Kewl! Please chime in! What your opinion is is not as important as if you share it and substantiate it. I like it when people can shoot me down in flames with verifiable facts. I learn something new that way. My life has changed course many times because someone persuaded me to really think about what I believed and look at it differently (I used to be a staunch back in the day.....)!
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Old April 25th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #38
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:chiefwoohaw:
Your writing a lot but you aren't saying much, can you get to the point?

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. P.S. Liberal Fascism, by definition, is an oxymoron.
If you read the book you will find out that in fact it is not. The definition of Fascism has been distorted since WWII.

The Democratic Party in America follows very closely the fascist model of government, or at least ideally they'd like to follow it.

The fascist model: "everything within the state, nothing outside of the state."

Government provided healthcare is a great example of the progression of the Marxist model in America. Who's pushing that in the US? Oh that's right it's the Democrats.

You don't have to quote Karl Marx or claim to be a Marxist to actually be a Marxist. You only have to live by the philosophy of Marxism.

Here is a small example:

http://www.redstate.com/stories/elec...d_what_he_said

Cliff Notes:

Obama.....
"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Marx.....
“Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.”

He didn't quote him, but you have to admit the thinking is similar.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 11:27 AM   #39
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:chiefwoohaw:
Your writing a lot but you aren't saying much, can you get to the point? LOL! Backatcha!



If you read the book you will find out that in fact it is not. The definition of Fascism has been distorted since WWII. That is their spin on it to get you to think their way:

liberalism
Main Entry: lib·er·al·ism
Function: noun
Date: 1819
1: the quality or state of being liberal
2 aoften capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b: a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c: a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties dcapitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party

fascism
Main Entry: fas·cism
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1: often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

BTW, you like parrots?


The Democratic Party in America follows very closely the fascist model of government, or at least ideally they'd like to follow it. You are confusing fascists with populists

The fascist model: "everything within the state, nothing outside of the state." Where did you get this from? I have never heard that said as a Democratic model. Please provide the source of oyur quote so I can write that person an angry letter and send them the definitions I provided above. Oops... My bad. You said "fascist" model, and you are right.

Government provided healthcare is a great example of the progression of the Marxist model in America. Who's pushing that in the US? Oh that's right it's the Democrats. So is the building of highways, schools, having police departments, fire departments, JAILS, Marxist?

You don't have to quote Karl Marx or claim to be a Marxist to actually be a Marxist. You only have to live by the philosophy of Marxism. Agreed.

Here is a small example:

http://www.redstate.com/stories/elec...d_what_he_said

Cliff Notes:

Obama.....
"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Marx.....
“Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.”

He didn't quote him, but you have to admit the thinking is similar. I think that's a stretch at best, tying those two together, but if that's how you see it I won't argue the point.
.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 09:40 PM   #40
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Interesting, but I'm not sure what your point was. You are right about what Halilburton is, but my complaint is that they will be a Dubai based corporation now, but with full U.S. corporate privileges. If Ford moved to China but wanted all the privileges of a U.S. corporation, would you approve? Please tell us yes or no. If not, then why Haliburton?

So what are the "privileges of a U.S. corporation"? No, I don't personally like that they're moving overseas, but there's obviously a reason why - that's what we need to ask ourselves. What about our business climate is such that this firm felt the need to move overseas?

There is no way of knowing, and unfair to speculate either way, as to what might have happened had someone else been president on 9/11, so we need to look at what DID happen:

W just sat there while the kids kept reading,


Fair enough.

The protocol in the event of an attack was followed - just like it would've been no matter who was President. Until it became clear that there was something larger going on than a plane striking a building there was no need to make a move. You can then join the naysayers who claimed he was "hiding" when they scrambled Air Force One to put the CIC out of harm's way. Again, following the well thought-out and well-rehearsed plan.

W and his administration ignored warnings of Bin Laden planning airline attacks on U.S. soil (several intelligence officials provided testimony to and documentation of such),

we attacked the wrong country,

we never got Bin Laden and W even said he doesn't spend much time thinking about it,


Clinton likewise had intelligence about Bin Laden and didn't act. Hindsight is 20-20. I'm sure both administrations received intelligence about a whole host of others threats too - including domestic nutjobs like those in OKC as well. Which do you act on?

Bin laden is a tough one. We have a "friendly" ally in Pakistan, except that in parts of Pakistan the central government really isn't in control. Do we attack into Pakistan and risk destabilizing a friendly regime?

we were lied to about WMD's and the W administration was almost exposed so they pulled the weapons inspectors before they could make a final report that there were none, to this day the inspectors keep saying that they told the administration, the press and U.N. that there was nothing there (I used to hear and see this on the noncorporate news sources all the time), and now our own military has proven them right,

WMDs (chemical weapon stockpiles) were found in Iraq. I have no doubt many other items of interest were shipped off to Syria in the near-nonstop caravan of materials sent there before the war started.

we are in the worst economic coondition since the depression,

foreclosures are at an all time high,

homes are plummeting in value,


Because of too-loose mortgage lending policies that resulted in people receiving loans they couldn't repay the mortgage and housing market is correcting. I wouldn't attribute this to a specific administration, although more vigilant oversight would've helped.

corporations are leaving the country,

wages are tumbling too,

unemployment is at an all time high,

more citizens are below the poverty line than since the depression,

all this happened with an 8 year run by a Republilcan president and a Republican house and senate. They had rubber-stamp control on pretty much everything, and look what happened.


Our economy is cyclic - no party can change that. The real problem is that, unlike previous downturns, we aren't going to bounce back after this one. The jobs are moving overseas, because (especially here in MI) a lot of folks think $70 - $100K a year (before benefits) is reasonable for a non-skilled factory hand. A Mexican worker will do the same job, with the same quality for a fraction of that. Look at all those Mexican-built 5.7 litre Chrysler Hemis out there. And Ford Fusions/Mercury Milanos/Lincoln MKZs. All Mexican built.

Taxes are a necessary evil. Roads need to be maintained, bridges need to be built, controls need to be in place so we don't have total anarchy. Since W has been in office my taxes have gone UP. I am paying more than ever and getting squat back. Everyone that I know is experiencing the same thing (even the Republicans).

Are you paying "more" because you're making more? Real tax rates have dropped slightly in Dubya's administration - something Hillary and Obama are honest enough to both say they'll change. And don't start the "tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the poor" crap - you know better than that.


Hillary is a joke. If she wins I may have to leave the country.

Agreed.

Ron Paul can't win, but he would be my choice.

I like a lot of what he says - but he's not a "complete package". And he comes off a little nutty.

Obama can win, and may very well win, so rather than sit around and throw empty, baseless insults (like "empty suit") when he has a proven track record of standing up FOR THE PEOPLE and getting things done, and voting AGAINST attacking Iraq, maybe you could consider what he is saying: that he will be in office to serve US, represent US, do OUR bidding. Imagine that, an empty suit waiting for US to fill it. Government BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE. We don't need leaders, we need representatives. Would you know what to do if you had a president that was waiting for YOU to tell HIM what to do? What would be the first hing you would ask for? After you figure that out, check out his website and see if he is already talking about DOING IT. You may be pleasantly surpirsed.

Oh, I think Obama can win too - that's what scares me.

When I say "empty suit", I mean that Obama is "all sizzle and no steak" - kinda like Bobby Kennedy was. Charismatic? Yes. Excellent speaker? Yes. A "gimmick"? Yes (he's the black guy, like RFK was JFK's brother).

We need more in a CIC and President than a slick speaker delivering inspirational platitudes.

Maybe the reason that the NeoCons don't want populist rule is because they are realizing that a new generation is taking over that wants things the "new way", so they would rather impose fascist rule to cling to their values....?

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.


I don't see more patriotism now than I did as child. Right around 9/11 there was a lot, but it abated.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

What if instead of invading Iraq, a change of regime was accomplished by a CIA operative putting a .300 Win Mag through Saddam's braincase? Or Hitler's? No thousands of U.S. lives lost, no billion$ spent?

If one U.S. serviceperson's life would be saved, I would have no compunction stringing up every nonmilitary prisoner in Gitmo. If we have to waterboard a few or shoot a few low value ones to loosen the tounges of a high value one, then so be it.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

What about the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy"?

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.


Did you serve?

I don't see the military being "glamorized". I do see it being respected, which is appropriate. Our freedoms exist because of our military people - not politicians.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

Sorta like "It Takes A Village"? The destruction of the family unit by generations of welfare-driven dependency and welfare policies that favor fathers abandoning their children?

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

The mass media is so incredibly liberal that it defies reason, a fact that cannot be denied. Talk radio is entertainment.

However, I will make an unpopular statement. We need less media coverage of war. War is an ugly, non-telegenic business. How would the Normandy invasion have looked if covered live on TV by embedded reporters? Iwo Jima? Ardennes Forest? Antietam? War is something that nees to be covered at a distance. Not distorted, but put into context.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.



8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.



9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.



10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Is labor being suppressed?

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

I oppose all government funding for the arts. Let the market rule - if someone likes it, they'll pay for it. I mean, look at rap music. If that means "classical" music fades away, then so be it. I don't see the importance of 300 year-old European pop music to today's culture. If we want to preserve something, let's preserve some Jerry Lee Lewis and Carl Pewrkins.

As far as censorship and suppression of academia, see what happens to a scientist who points out the global warming is just an unproven theory. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

To date, nobody has been able to identify a foregone civil liberty for me. Wiretapping of foreign nationals (non-citizens) doesn't count.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

A characteristic of politicians of every race, creed, color, and party.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Okay, Al Gore lost because he received fewer votes. No conspiracy, just some sour grapes and confused Floridians. No conspiracy, no dark secrets - nothing like the votes JFK got in Chicago in 1960...
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