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Old April 10th, 2008, 08:59 AM   #61
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NAFTA wasn't Clinton it well before his time. I'm thinking like back in the late 70's
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Old April 10th, 2008, 09:15 AM   #62
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NAFTA wasn't Clinton it well before his time. I'm thinking like back in the late 70's
how can you forget the H Ross Perot's "Great sucking sound" as American jobs head to Mexico tirade during the debates/press releases?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...rade_Agreement

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came into effect on January 1, 1994 and (as of 2008) it remains the largest trade bloc in the world in terms of combined GDP of its members
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Old April 10th, 2008, 09:44 AM   #63
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how can you forget the H Ross Perot's "Great sucking sound" as American jobs head to Mexico tirade during the debates/press releases?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...rade_Agreement
Clinton didn't create it, but he did sign it into policy didn't he?
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Old April 10th, 2008, 09:45 AM   #64
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Clinton didn't create it, but he did sign it into policy didn't he?
He also signed the Federal Telecommunications Act that allowed a few huge multinational corporations to own and control most of our mass media.

They put on a liberal front, but they represent the huge corps and there's nothing liberal about their agenda, but you'll never hear about that on the media they own. Anyone that thinks the media is liberal doesn't have a clue who owns what.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 10:00 AM   #65
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Clinton didn't create it, but he did sign it into policy didn't he?
I don't recall who/where the blame/credit lies. It is, what it is. I was only mentioning the timing of the 70's was off by a bit.

Like most everything in politics it's nearly impossible to fully blame/credit any administration these days, given the number of tie-barred conditions, pork, etc. that typically goes with anything signed into law.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 10:26 AM   #66
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I don't recall who/where the blame/credit lies. It is, what it is. I was only mentioning the timing of the 70's was off by a bit.

Like most everything in politics it's nearly impossible to fully blame/credit any administration these days, given the number of tie-barred conditions, pork, etc. that typically goes with anything signed into law.
"there is no political solution to a total revolution" - Spirits in the Material World - The Police
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Old April 10th, 2008, 11:59 AM   #67
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Thanks Clinton ... NAFTA was just what we needed!


Just to keep the facts in perspective, Ronald Reagan first presented the idea of CAFTA (Canadian-American) during his first campaign for the White House. He pushed CAFTA, which in turn became NAFTA during all 8 years of his administration. It was not until George H.W. Bush was in office that NAFTA was agreed upon by the leaders of the US, Canada and Mexico and passed by it's respective legislative bodies. When Clinton came into office he did sign parts of the NAFTA agreements. In his defense though, it was within a month or 2 of taking office, and he was facing a congress that would have no problem over riding a veto.
All 3 of these Presidents and our present one, have supported NAFTA. but it was not Clintons, or any other Democrats "Brain Child". Just wanted to clear that up.

I have done the research and posted links over and over on this and other forums. Search and you will find.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 12:42 PM   #68
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Well it's funny that durning late 70's and early 80's that was the begining of the twin plants on the US and Mexican borders. And I'm sorry to say that was the begining of NAFTA wasn't called that but still the writing on the wall. This is one fact that I do know because I was working on both sides of the border in the El Paso, Tx area. For a small business in El Paso. That worked for the US company that had plants there. Some of the plants on the mexican side had been there for years just the plants on this (which where nothing more than warehouses) came in about the early 80's.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 12:51 PM   #69
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My first thought...Your fiances cousin is a boob for stating that people didn't like there job anyway....

If the living wage jobs disappear, so will the service jobs. There is less and less inovation in the this country, again being outsourced to Asia and Asia Minor. So, the middle class shinks and more money goes to the rich less to the poor...we have a depression. When 90% of a country's wealth resides in only 10% of the peoples bank accounts, then a depression is eminent. We arent this bad yet, but its coming (happened last in 1929).

Another issue is our security. If we keep dismantaling our manufacturing ability, agriculture,... another country can blockade us, make us hurt and take over...hmmmm China?
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Old April 11th, 2008, 11:30 AM   #70
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My first thought...Your fiances cousin is a boob for stating that people didn't like there job anyway....

If the living wage jobs disappear, so will the service jobs. There is less and less inovation in the this country, again being outsourced to Asia and Asia Minor. So, the middle class shinks and more money goes to the rich less to the poor...we have a depression. When 90% of a country's wealth resides in only 10% of the peoples bank accounts, then a depression is eminent. We arent this bad yet, but its coming (happened last in 1929).

Another issue is our security. If we keep dismantaling our manufacturing ability, agriculture,... another country can blockade us, make us hurt and take over...hmmmm China?
Good points, however:

Education is a major building block of innovation. As long as people keep sitting around waiting for someone to "give them a job" and not going back to school AND continuously educating themselves ON THE JOB, innovation will stall. There is so much ALREADY AVAILABLE that most people I've met since moving to Michigan don't even bother to use. They just bitch because they can't find another job that requires no education at all that pays over $50,000.00 per year. Tsk-task. Check out the community colleges. There is NO EXCUSE for the majority of Michiganders not to go to school and still handle their other responsiblities. Heck, in order to attend a few classes most people only need to give up a little TV, hunting, or yakking on the phone time.... Too much to ask of you?

With regard to blockades, they wouldn't affect us long enough to matter, because we can go BACK to doing those things here if we were pushed. Besides, in agriculture, California provides the majority of the nations food produce even today. We would be fine.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 12:02 PM   #71
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Good points, however:

Education is a major building block of innovation. As long as people keep sitting around waiting for someone to "give them a job" and not going back to school AND continuously educating themselves ON THE JOB, innovation will stall. There is so much ALREADY AVAILABLE that most people I've met since moving to Michigan don't even bother to use. They just bitch because they can't find another job that requires no education at all that pays over $50,000.00 per year. Tsk-task. Check out the community colleges. There is NO EXCUSE for the majority of Michiganders not to go to school and still handle their other responsiblities. Heck, in order to attend a few classes most people only need to give up a little TV, hunting, or yakking on the phone time.... Too much to ask of you?

With regard to blockades, they wouldn't affect us long enough to matter, because we can go BACK to doing those things here if we were pushed. Besides, in agriculture, California provides the majority of the nations food produce even today. We would be fine.


Please explain this to the people I know whose jobs are being outsourced or offshored. These are well educated (college degree holding) professionals in their fields. These are people that have stayed loyal to a company through thick and thin for literally decades. These are people that are being replaced because they found a company from India that claims they can do the job cheaper.

It is not always about what you know or the experience you have. Plenty of people have that. It is about the money. I guess you can not expect to build a decent salary (i.e. career) over years of hard work. Once you get to a certain point you will be replaced. And the next company may well not pay the same salary you have built up through your merit raises.

Explain this to the person in their mid 50's who has just had a lifes worth of plans get turned upside down.

Not all jobs being outsourced and offshored are menial jobs. They are not all Union jobs. Any job that can be done remotely, including accounting, can be offshored. You do all remember that the x-rays taken in the ER may be read by a doctor in New Delhi, right? How about your MRI?
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Old April 11th, 2008, 12:10 PM   #72
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Good points, however:

Education is a major building block of innovation. As long as people keep sitting around waiting for someone to "give them a job" and not going back to school AND continuously educating themselves ON THE JOB, innovation will stall. There is so much ALREADY AVAILABLE that most people I've met since moving to Michigan don't even bother to use. They just bitch because they can't find another job that requires no education at all that pays over $50,000.00 per year. Tsk-task. Check out the community colleges. There is NO EXCUSE for the majority of Michiganders not to go to school and still handle their other responsiblities. Heck, in order to attend a few classes most people only need to give up a little TV, hunting, or yakking on the phone time.... Too much to ask of you? [COLOR="Orange"

With regard to blockades, they wouldn't affect us long enough to matter, because we can go BACK to doing those things here if we were pushed. Besides, in agriculture, California provides the majority of the nations food produce even today. We would be fine.


WELL, YEAH.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 12:44 PM   #73
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Please explain this to the people I know whose jobs are being outsourced or offshored. These are well educated (college degree holding) professionals in their fields. These are people that have stayed loyal to a company through thick and thin for literally decades. These are people that are being replaced because they found a company from India that claims they can do the job cheaper.

It is not always about what you know or the experience you have. Plenty of people have that. It is about the money. I guess you can not expect to build a decent salary (i.e. career) over years of hard work. Once you get to a certain point you will be replaced. And the next company may well not pay the same salary you have built up through your merit raises.

Explain this to the person in their mid 50's who has just had a lifes worth of plans get turned upside down.

Not all jobs being outsourced and offshored are menial jobs. They are not all Union jobs. Any job that can be done remotely, including accounting, can be offshored. You do all remember that the x-rays taken in the ER may be read by a doctor in New Delhi, right? How about your MRI?
Although my heart goes out to anyone that loses their job when they did nothing "wrong" per se, I don't understand how everyone failed to see the writing on the wall a long time ago. We in California knew this was coming by the turn of this century. By the time I moved here in 2001 I already knew not to heed the recommendation of the locals to look for work at one of the Big 3... I knew that was terrible idea then, and I would never consider it now, even if if it paid far more (which it would if I made the move).

The fact is that many people in automotive referred to their jobs as "The Golden Handcuffs". They knew it was bad, many hated their jobs anyway, they knew they were losing marketshare to imports, but they just kept going in every day and building the same crappy cars. One of the few that I know that saw it coming and bailed is a close associate of mine that had a Masters in Engineering and his lifelong ambition was to work in automotive. he moved from New York to Michigan many years ago to do so, but he also saw what was happening, disagreed with it, and bailed.

He lived on the money he saved (instead of blowing on boats and quads and guns and huge TV's) while he reevaluated his direction. He completely changed fields and pursued specific education and training and went in to commercial real estate management, and turned out to be my bosss.

He has since educated and networked himiself to the point that he has opened his own business and works with investors to acquire and manage commercial properties. He fits perfectly in to the category of people that you cite and he is not unique. Everything he did is achievable by the people you compare.

As far as the union people, they got what they deserved. If you came to work for me and it was a constant battle, I'd get rid of you too. Way too much energy and money was expended pacifying whiners and it ruined it for all the brothers that did what was expected and DIDN'T bitch about it, the problem is that they should have acted WITH their union a long time ago to get rid of those bad apples, not strike in their support , and show support for the company that they work for. After all, they are quite pissed that after all the fighting, striking and bickering with the Big 3 they didn't get any loyalty in return. Please. They didn't earn any. They came to work all those years becasue of the Golden Handcuffs. I know it. You know it.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 01:48 PM   #74
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Buzz, I'm not going to quote you because you type too much, and it's hard to read on my wee-little cell phone screen.

Once again, let's dodge the auto unions because they are a story all to themselves.

Please use the same logic for Schweeb, shall we?

He went to college for Computer Engineering. Educated. Technical Labor. Hard Work.

He produced good results at a reasonable salary.

Schweeb's job is now going to Habieb.

Has Schweeb deserved it? He knew it was a changing market and that computers "are the future". He adapted to the market and got PWNED.

Now you're saying that he has to go back to school again, so he can change careers or get new skills? (He just got out...a little over a year ago-ish...) Or does he have to start his own business??? What new "future" field should he look into since computers are now going overseas?

I suppose it's his fault for being lazy...only going to school for one thing and trying to attain a job in a technical field.

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Old April 11th, 2008, 01:56 PM   #75
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I drew you a picture of Schweeb's projected future.

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Old April 11th, 2008, 01:59 PM   #76
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Buzz, I'm not going to quote you because you type too much, and it's hard to read on my wee-little cell phone screen.

Once again, let's dodge the auto unions because they are a story all to themselves.

Please use the same logic for Schweeb, shall we?

He went to college for Computer Engineering. Educated. Technical Labor. Hard Work.

He produced good results at a reasonable salary.

Schweeb's job is now going to Habieb.

Has Schweeb deserved it? He knew it was a changing market and that computers "are the future". He adapted to the market and got PWNED.

Now you're saying that he has to go back to school again, so he can change careers or get new skills? (He just got out...a little over a year ago-ish...) Or does he have to start his own business??? What new "future" field should he look into since computers are now going overseas?

I suppose it's his fault for being lazy...only going to school for one thing and trying to attain a job in a technical field.


Maybe my point above was missed, but using the computer field for example, it was inevitable (especially to those in the Silicon Valley, where I'm from) that the computer thing was a bubble that would soon burst. I'm sorry he didn't make a good choice there.

Yes, he should go back to school. He can get a degree in nursing, for example, in 2 years going part time, and start out over $50,000.00 per year. This through a community college. Our daughter did it while working, raising 2 kids, and pregnant with a third.

Did Schweeb "deserve" to be out of work? That would imply punsihment for wrong-doing, and I'm not saying that about him (the unions, I am), but I question the wisdom of his chosen path. I know alot of computer and network tecchies here and in California and they are jumping off like rats from a sinking ship. They are going to all sorts of different fields now. This isn't because of well organized conspiracy to offshore everything, it is because those in the other countries educated themselves and are able to do the same jobs for less. Competition plain and simple.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 02:55 PM   #77
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buzz. curious if I know your boss. pm me if you prefer to keep it private and are willing to share whom it is, or at least which firm he worked with, or works for.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 04:31 PM   #78
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Maybe my point above was missed, but using the computer field for example, it was inevitable (especially to those in the Silicon Valley, where I'm from) that the computer thing was a bubble that would soon burst. I'm sorry he didn't make a good choice there.

Yes, he should go back to school. He can get a degree in nursing, for example, in 2 years going part time, and start out over $50,000.00 per year. This through a community college. Our daughter did it while working, raising 2 kids, and pregnant with a third.
My faince's roommate's father just had surgery last week. It was done 100% by robots. No nurses involved. Maybe, when we switch to automated surgeries, he should go back to school for computer engineering to develop the new programs for procedures. Oh wait, we'll probably outsource those services...silly me.

As far as recovery time, we are currently developing "mobile IVs" and medical tools that require less and less as far as incision size and invasiveness, so now most procedures except for the most extreme are out patient. Less nurses.

Hospitals are also losing their butts right now. My mom is an accounting manager (I know...I'm surrounded) at a hospital and she's had to eliminate MANY MANY positions in the past few months...What should poor Schweeb do now?!?!?!
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Old April 11th, 2008, 05:09 PM   #79
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Maybe my point above was missed, but using the computer field for example, it was inevitable (especially to those in the Silicon Valley, where I'm from) that the computer thing was a bubble that would soon burst. I'm sorry he didn't make a good choice there.

Yes, he should go back to school. He can get a degree in nursing, for example, in 2 years going part time, and start out over $50,000.00 per year. This through a community college. Our daughter did it while working, raising 2 kids, and pregnant with a third.

Did Schweeb "deserve" to be out of work? That would imply punsihment for wrong-doing, and I'm not saying that about him (the unions, I am), but I question the wisdom of his chosen path. I know alot of computer and network tecchies here and in California and they are jumping off like rats from a sinking ship. They are going to all sorts of different fields now. This isn't because of well organized conspiracy to offshore everything, it is because those in the other countries educated themselves and are able to do the same jobs for less. Competition plain and simple.
Yes, everyone has control of everything that effects them, including world markets, economies and outsourcing...

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Old April 11th, 2008, 05:12 PM   #80
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My faince's roommate's father just had surgery last week. It was done 100% by robots. No nurses involved. Maybe, when we switch to automated surgeries, he should go back to school for computer engineering to develop the new programs for procedures. Oh wait, we'll probably outsource those services...silly me.

As far as recovery time, we are currently developing "mobile IVs" and medical tools that require less and less as far as incision size and invasiveness, so now most procedures except for the most extreme are out patient. Less nurses.

Hospitals are also losing their butts right now. My mom is an accounting manager (I know...I'm surrounded) at a hospital and she's had to eliminate MANY MANY positions in the past few months...What should poor Schweeb do now?!?!?!
That differs substantially from my daughters experience, as well as our nephew (first trained as a firefighter, switched to nursing) because they are being recruited left and right, can't find enough of them, and they work all the hours they want. They can go anywhere in the country and land a job. Hospitals all over the nation have opportunites offered up before they even graduate.

But medical isn't the only area that Schweeb can look in to. There are many growing feilds in the U.S., unfortunately Michiganders seem to think that all there is is automotive, so if they can't find something in it or supporting it, they figure they're screwed. I will never work in anything automotive, and I'm doing great. Better off without it.

What happened to the people that used to build typewriters? What about people that that used to do punchcards? Microfiche? Record players? Things change. Those that are resourcefull pay attention to what is going on, anticipate the change, formulate a plan, and execute it. But they don't stop there. They maintain that cycle.

"Poor Schweeb" you say? What's so "poor" about Schweeb? At least he has ACCESS to higher education. What about all the people that never have and are doing fine? What about the people that don't even have human rights? None of us have an excuse. I never finished the 10th grade. I had a criminal record and several drug problems. I had a very messed up childhood. I had incredibly bad breaks all along the way. I overcame adversity and persevered. I have become a success in many ways and am now a corporate executive (Assistant VP) because I didn't whine and I NEVER gave up. Schweeb can do the same. I believe in him more than you appear to. Hang in there Schweeb. Keep your head up at all times, and if there's anything I can do to help you (resume tweaking, networking, motivation, a good margarita, etc.) just let me know! I'm sure there's lot's of people on this site that will offer up the same.
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