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Old April 9th, 2008, 07:31 PM   #41
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the answer is very much different for each.

a classic example of why/how it can and did get better/more efficient, is in the very early days of automotive production, e.g. henry ford days, they had their own steel plant, made their own automotive glass, etc. - non-core business is one way of referring to it. it was more efficient, and likely increased quality by spinning those businesses off, or "outsourcing them"

in some ways that can obviously be applied to things like IT services, but so too to financial services, project management, engineering, etc, etc. depending on the size/scope of what is viewed as "core business".

it seems however, that in some cases, "they" don't know where/when to stop
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Old April 9th, 2008, 07:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by K&J's Dad View Post
Engineering is a great degree. No matter where something is made it can be designed anywhere. Usually where the main company is located or near manufacturing. It all depends on the company. Toyota and Honda have engineers in the US and the Big Three have engineers overseas.
As I said, I'm not worried...but thanks.

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Originally Posted by K&J's Dad
The "average" worker needs to adapt or our economy will suffer greatly. It is the lazy workers that made good money doing stupids jobs for the Big Three that are the most pissed. They don't have an education or any real experience to get another job. Plus they became accustomed to make a certain wage and won't "settle" for anything less.
Ok...let's not focus auto...because specifics are not my primary concern. What about those IT people who studied hard in college because they heard that computers were the future? I'm sure they thought they were 'adapting'...they even picked a "service" job! Sucks for them. Schweeb just got out of school for computer stuff...tell him to go back.

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Originally Posted by K&J's Dad
The major countries of Europe have not collapsed economically because they don't make the majority of the products they consume. We most likely won't either. Europe is doing quite well right now. Look at the currency rates. They learned to adapt and change. Most of it started with educating their workforce.
I never stated that we had to make the majority of the products that we consume, but tell me: What is the unemployment rate in Europe? We don't "come up with everything" so I don't expect us to "make" everything. If some guy in Japan develops the ultimate super mega play system, he can build it in Japan and we can buy it from Japan. If someone in the US comes up with a new surgical device, he can make it here and we'll buy it here. The choice to move production AWAY from here is my concern.


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Originally Posted by K&J's Dad
We will always have manufacturing jobs of some sort in the US. You can't outsource everything!
So what is the ratio of jobs kept to lost going to be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K&J's Dad
Us beating up on Britain had nothing to do with us making stuff for them. Even during war time we still had to trade. Business is business. No matter who our allies or enemies are we still trade with them. We even trade with Cuba to an extent. Still can't get their cigars but there is trade going on between the countries.
How did we get the money? How did we get the facilities? How did we even reach such a high feeling of self-worth? We TRADE with others...but, again, my issue is GIVING labor to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K&J's Dad
The best thing you can do to protect your career is to be educated and also to be willing to change careers at some point. An engineering degree is a great start. You can always start in engineering and then as you gain experience move into the business side. Building a resume with multiple experiences is a wonderful tool to utilize.
Again, I'm not worried.

But thank you.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 08:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
I have watched outsourcing destroy MI,OH, the auto industry and quite a few other things so I will type slowly so the simpletons can understand....

Exhibit A:


That toothpick employs hundreds if not thousands of people.

Guy who cuts the wood works for a company that has a receptionist, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, lawn care, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business.

He takes that wood to a mill. That mill will have another hundred or so people that work to make the wood smaller...and all the "other" people that the mill uses to take care of it's employees and business.

The wood then goes to the toothpick factory, and gets put in a box made from a box factory or paper mill.

That toothpick then goes in a truck to wal-mart where some kid puts it on a shelf.

The "other" people who depend on the people who make toothpicks are:
lawyers
doctors
day care providers
carry outs
car salesman
hardware stores
pizza shops
insurance saleman
financial advisors
etc. etc. etc. etc.


If toothpicks are outsourced then the jobs that are needed here are a dozen guys on a ship,few guys at a shipyard,few guys to drive a truck, and that kid putting it on the shelf.

Anybody that thinks outsourcing is good, or benefits anyone but shareholders does not understand simple math, economics....or has drank so much Kool-aid their teeth are rotted.

btw I am an EXPERT on this subject. I live it everyday.

Sorry toolmantim, in regards to economics, the pizza industry as well as the restaurant industry has a history of doing quite well in a poor economy.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 08:10 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by K&J's Dad View Post
Outsourcing is good!

If you look at world history, the US was at one time the "cheap" labor. During the late 1700s and 1800s the US was producing cheap goods for Europe. When it became too expensive here to make these goods it moved on. The economies in China and Japan are growing and moving much of their production to countries such as Vietnam and Mongolia because their labor is even cheaper. Finance experts understand this. It is the working class that won't take the time to understand it because they feel cheated. Go back to school, learn a new trade. You must adapt to the economy not vice versa.
If we made all the goods here you would not be able to afford most of your every day goods and services. It is plain economics. This is why Walmart is so huge. People buy what they can afford. They want cheaper goods so they can buy more. Our culture buys in excess and is also materialistic. Cut these traits and then you may have an argument.
I agree
Even card carrying american car driving union members who complain about outsoutcing that have outragious union contracts shop at Walmart.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 08:10 PM   #45
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I agree that education is the way to stay ahead of boutsourcing, but when a company lays off of gets rid of thousands of employees at once, there is not enough jobs available for these people, plus if they do get an education there is no gaurantee that there will be a job for them. Example a line worker can make 60,000 w/o overtime, a BS in engineering starts at 47,000 and tops about 70,000 average. Now a 40 yr old was used to 60,000+ looses his job to outsourcing, goes to school while working at a job usually making less money, to spend 6 or more years to geta degree so they can start a new career , with no experiance, still making less than he did at his line job.

Why is our economy going down hill?
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Old April 9th, 2008, 08:39 PM   #46
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Ok since some one else brought this up If where to export into other countries our US good are traiffed higher than what we traiff their products which make a very unlevel playing field for the US workers and makes outsourcing seem like a good thing for all but the US worker... How about those of us who aren't lucky to get some one putting up the dime's to goto school or the ones that have not the likeyhood of starting a second career. See some of us are not young For me I'm in my early 50's . Do I have time to try to support what I have and still go to school and pay for that. before I'm to old to work at what ever field that I choose. And I didn't work in the auto industrail but over half of the work I do does... So will some of the smart people tell me what to I do
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Old April 9th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
I have watched outsourcing destroy MI,OH, the auto industry and quite a few other things so I will type slowly so the simpletons can understand....

Exhibit A:


That toothpick employs hundreds if not thousands of people.

Guy who cuts the wood works for a company that has a receptionist, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, lawn care, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business.

He takes that wood to a mill. That mill will have another hundred or so people that work to make the wood smaller...and all the "other" people that the mill uses to take care of it's employees and business.

The wood then goes to the toothpick factory, and gets put in a box made from a box factory or paper mill.

That toothpick then goes in a truck to wal-mart where some kid puts it on a shelf.

The "other" people who depend on the people who make toothpicks are:
lawyers
doctors
day care providers
carry outs
car salesman
hardware stores
pizza shops
insurance saleman
financial advisors
etc. etc. etc. etc.


If toothpicks are outsourced then the jobs that are needed here are a dozen guys on a ship,few guys at a shipyard,few guys to drive a truck, and that kid putting it on the shelf.

Anybody that thinks outsourcing is good, or benefits anyone but shareholders does not understand simple math, economics....or has drank so much Kool-aid their teeth are rotted.

btw I am an EXPERT on this subject. I live it everyday.

Just checked, the box of toothpicks I have were made in USA. It's probably a decade old though so I don't know about now.

But heres the real question...

Suppose you go to the store for toothpick and theres 2 brands, brand x is $1.00 a box and brands y is $1.25 for the same size box. Do you take the time to see in one is imported or made in USA? Will you pay the extra $0.25 for the ones made in USA? Or will you grab the cheap one and head for the checkout? And while it may be easy to say you'd pay the extra $0.25 what if it was the choice between an item imported thats $1000 and one made in the USA that sells $1250? Will you pay the extra $250 just for something made in USA?

You may, but I don't think most people will.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 09:06 PM   #48
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One problem with this entire discussion is that no ones really defined what they mean by "outsourcing". Everyone seems to be referring to "offshoring", sending work to other countries.

Outsourcing could be a company getting rid of direct employees and hiring contractors, getting rid of and entire department and having that work done by an outside company, closing and entire plant and opening one overseas, buying products that you once made in house and buying from somewhere else... "outsourcing" can come on may forms.

One thing your accountant friend doesn't seem to realize is that it's not just the unskilled labor jobs that are being offshored, It's now designers, engineers, programmers, system support, Many highly skill, desirable jobs are being offshored, not just factory jobs.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 09:08 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
One problem with this entire discussion is that no ones really defined what they mean by "outsourcing". Everyone seems to be referring to "offshoring", sending work to other countries.
Sorry for the confusion, I was specifically referring to jobs that were in the U.S. being sent overseas for cost or whatever other reasons. Call it what you will.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 09:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Suppose you go to the store for toothpick and theres 2 brands, brand x is $1.00 a box and brands y is $1.25 for the same size box. Do you take the time to see in one is imported or made in USA? Will you pay the extra $0.25 for the ones made in USA? Or will you grab the cheap one and head for the checkout? And while it may be easy to say you'd pay the extra $0.25 what if it was the choice between an item imported thats $1000 and one made in the USA that sells $1250? Will you pay the extra $250 just for something made in USA?
ok here is what good sample of what I'm talking about now if the taiff was applied the way that let say Japan does our goods the that same box would actualy cost more than the USA product. Why because the trade ageements that have been made to allow their products to be imported cheaply and without the same rate of tariffs. I'm sorry to say this but realy people need to study world tariffs and see why the only we export for the most part is money.

Last edited by dodger889; April 9th, 2008 at 09:20 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 09:29 PM   #51
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Sorry for the confusion, I was specifically referring to jobs that were in the U.S. being sent overseas for cost or whatever other reasons. Call it what you will.
I figured thats what you meant, just wanted to clarify.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 09:42 PM   #52
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ok here is what good sample of what I'm talking about now if the taiff was applied the way that let say Japan does our goods the that same box would actualy cost more than the USA product. Why because the trade ageements that have been made to allow their products to be imported cheaply and without the same rate of tariffs. I'm sorry to say this but realy people need to study world tariffs and see why the only we export for the most part is money.
Yeah, I hate that. They put tariffs on our products and no one seems to care but if we do that everyone screams about it.

I also wonder how, or if, tariffs are applied to services. It's obvious when a company imports a computer that it's imported and should have some sort of tariff applied. But when you call for customer support and that call is routed to an overseas call center that service is also an import. Is it treated as such? The same goes for other work, like design and engineering. Are tariffs applied to that work if it's don't overseas for an American company?
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Old April 9th, 2008, 10:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
I have watched outsourcing destroy MI,OH, the auto industry and quite a few other things so I will type slowly so the simpletons can understand....

Exhibit A:


That toothpick employs hundreds if not thousands of people.

Guy who cuts the wood works for a company that has a receptionist, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, lawn care, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business.

He takes that wood to a mill. That mill will have another hundred or so people that work to make the wood smaller...and all the "other" people that the mill uses to take care of it's employees and business.

The wood then goes to the toothpick factory, and gets put in a box made from a box factory or paper mill.

That toothpick then goes in a truck to wal-mart where some kid puts it on a shelf.

The "other" people who depend on the people who make toothpicks are:
lawyers
doctors
day care providers
carry outs
car salesman
hardware stores
pizza shops
insurance saleman
financial advisors
etc. etc. etc. etc.


If toothpicks are outsourced then the jobs that are needed here are a dozen guys on a ship and "receptionist, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business." and "U.S. CoastGuard, U.S. Meteorological Service, U.S. Navy and, believe it or not, the U.S. Air Force (satellites),few guys at a shipyard and receptionist, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business.
,few guys to drive a truck and receptionist, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business.
, and that kid putting it on the shelf and cashiers, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business.
. Other people that depend on them are :
lawyers
doctors
day care providers
carry outs
car salesman
hardware stores
pizza shops
insurance saleman
financial advisors
etc. etc. etc. etc.


So far the only person missing from orange list is the lawn care, and they're Mexican immigrants anyway, so who cares?


Anybody that thinks outsourcing is good, or benefits anyone but shareholders does not understand simple math, economics....or has drank so much Kool-aid their teeth are rotted.

btw I am an EXPERT on this subject. I live it everyday.

.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 10:30 PM   #54
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I didn't see that this thread was necessarily about outsourcing automotive, manufacturing, or Michigan. Did you happen to notice the name of this thread??

Fact is a great number of jobs are being outsourced to contract resources. Simply being agile, and/or educated isn't the panacea that many think/hope it would/could be. Chrysler's recent axing of IT resources is just another example that happens to be in the automotive sector.

On a social level, if one is going to attempt to be pro-outsourcing as an advocate for leveling the playing field, then it truly needs to be a level playing field. Taxation (from all forms, including tariffs on the imported goods/services) needs to be fully level.

Fact is, it never will be.

We're a melting pot, founded on immigration of cheap labor. The difference today, is that the immigrated cheap labor of our grandparents generations saved up, and sent for their families to come here, and invested in this country, and became productive in this country.

Today's imported cheap labor doesn't even bother to get green cards, let alone save and become productive in this country...
Edit. I didn't read far enough in to the thread. You guysclarifed offshoring. My thoughts still stand though. I find it interesting that no one talks about how many of these contractors are Americans, living and working in America. Nearly all of my subordinates are contractors. I like it better this way for a host of reasons. There work can't be sent overseas, because it has to happen here, but the jobswere outsourced all the same. The people that are pissed about it are the ones that were way overpaid to be marginally productive. Now, the contractor either performs or I replace them. Plain and simple. Work. Don't bitch. Deliver a good value. Or be unemployed.

Americans got all the great pay and built crappy cars. They laughed at Japan when the Honda showed up. Who is laughing now? Work. Don't bitch. Deliver a good value. Or be unemployed.

Last edited by AGoodBuzz; April 9th, 2008 at 10:35 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 11:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Edit. I didn't read far enough in to the thread. You guysclarifed offshoring. My thoughts still stand though. I find it interesting that no one talks about how many of these contractors are Americans, living and working in America. Nearly all of my subordinates are contractors. I like it better this way for a host of reasons. There work can't be sent overseas, because it has to happen here, but the jobswere outsourced all the same. The people that are pissed about it are the ones that were way overpaid to be marginally productive. Now, the contractor either performs or I replace them. Plain and simple. Work. Don't bitch. Deliver a good value. Or be unemployed.

Americans got all the great pay and built crappy cars. They laughed at Japan when the Honda showed up. Who is laughing now? Work. Don't bitch. Deliver a good value. Or be unemployed.
contracting != outsourcing
contracting == staffing
managed services == outsourcing

kthxbai

edit: I'm contracted to a managed services firm. I know the distinctions quite well.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 11:27 PM   #56
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contracting != outsourcing
contracting == staffing
managed services == outsourcing

kthxbai
Hahahaha

Get you and your computer-speak back to Kollege, and learn a trade!
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Old April 9th, 2008, 11:27 PM   #57
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Old April 10th, 2008, 02:48 AM   #58
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As I said, I'm not worried...but thanks.



Ok...let's not focus auto...because specifics are not my primary concern. What about those IT people who studied hard in college because they heard that computers were the future? I'm sure they thought they were 'adapting'...they even picked a "service" job! Sucks for them. Schweeb just got out of school for computer stuff...tell him to go back.



I never stated that we had to make the majority of the products that we consume, but tell me: What is the unemployment rate in Europe? We don't "come up with everything" so I don't expect us to "make" everything. If some guy in Japan develops the ultimate super mega play system, he can build it in Japan and we can buy it from Japan. If someone in the US comes up with a new surgical device, he can make it here and we'll buy it here. The choice to move production AWAY from here is my concern.




So what is the ratio of jobs kept to lost going to be?



How did we get the money? How did we get the facilities? How did we even reach such a high feeling of self-worth? We TRADE with others...but, again, my issue is GIVING labor to them.



Again, I'm not worried.

But thank you.
Don't even bother quoting, responding and arguing his posts. It's a completely worthless cause.

You can't fix stupid.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 07:18 AM   #59
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Edit. I didn't read far enough in to the thread. You guysclarifed offshoring. My thoughts still stand though. I find it interesting that no one talks about how many of these contractors are Americans, living and working in America. Nearly all of my subordinates are contractors. I like it better this way for a host of reasons. There work can't be sent overseas, because it has to happen here, but the jobswere outsourced all the same. The people that are pissed about it are the ones that were way overpaid to be marginally productive. Now, the contractor either performs or I replace them. Plain and simple. Work. Don't bitch. Deliver a good value. Or be unemployed.

Americans got all the great pay and built crappy cars. They laughed at Japan when the Honda showed up. Who is laughing now? Work. Don't bitch. Deliver a good value. Or be unemployed.

yes I read the thread, and the title. As of this writing, it simply states: "someone please explain to me why I should be in favor of outsourcing"

nowhere in that is it specifically indicative of automotive, or Michigan. However, the majority of replies were seemingly aimed in that direction initially.

Here on page 3, Lee did clarify what he had originally been speaking towards.

I'm not so sure I agree with schweeb's attempt to further refine the definition.

Often times contract resources are with a contract shop, not individual sub's, at least for many professional services and the utilization "staffing agencies" - and it's nothing more than the first phase in an overall intent/direction towards "managed services" anyway during a transition phase.

But, since the thread is now apparently more aimed at off-shoring I'll return you all back to the thread...
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Old April 10th, 2008, 07:43 AM   #60
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Thanks Clinton ... NAFTA was just what we needed!

Another 5 years and we'll be a country of all fast food employees.
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