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Old April 9th, 2008, 02:55 PM   #21
General Lee
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YAY! Someone I can learn from!

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Originally Posted by howell_jeep View Post
We are already indebted to other countries. This is as much a burden to them as it is to us. They are holding a debt denominated in a devaluating currency.
I know that we are in debt to them, my fear is us growing FARTHER in debt.

Does outsourcing HELP the debt situation at all?

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Originally Posted by howell_jeep
They wouldn't want to, or be able to, do it unless they are suicidal. We are too interconnected with financial markets. If they do something stupid, they'll end up hurting themselves.
Do you mean by losing consumers? Does outsourcing help this situation? Please elaborate!

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Originally Posted by howell_jeep
But weren't those often foreign companies producing robots? Outsourcing creates jobs as well. You have to have a group running the operation, logistics, transportation, distribution centers.
I mentioned the jobs, actually. In the example you are referencing, I mentioned "producing them, engineering them, servicing them, improving them". Yes, some of that went overseas due to "OUTSOURCING" (not "USING ROBOTS", which is what I was defending).

So, robots aside, where are the extra jobs? I agree that there are jobs created, but how does the volume of jobs created compare (# there compared to # here)? How about the skill level of the jobs that stay here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by howell_jeep
Not only service producing jobs will remain. Just like robots didn't eliminate all assembly jobs. Some production just doesn't make sense to outsource. Costs of outsourcing will soon outnumber the benefits (cost will go up as $ devalues, other coutries' economies will pick up the standard of living to the point where their wages rise to the point of not being competitive, transport costs are going up, quality control, etc.).
So we have to lower our standard of living and allow other countries to rise up to ours (because it will be a two-way street) before we can start to have more secure jobs?

Where does that leave us?

Thanks for your response, it's really stirring up some thoughts!
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Old April 9th, 2008, 02:59 PM   #22
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I wonder if your cousin's fiance would be in favor of simplifying the tax codes, and SEC requirements in such a way as to make accountant's unnecessary... talk about saving the economy a lot of overhead...
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by howell_jeep View Post
Labor Unions.
Gotta agree there. Sorry if I upset some people with that remark, but I worked auto for a spell. Unions had their place in time, but sometimes enough is enough.

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Originally Posted by howell_jeep
??? I don't believe so. They moved here because for other reasons.
Public Image? Dodge trade fees?
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by greygoose View Post
Close the borders and bring it all home! We should all get paid an honest wage for an honest days work. design it, build it, and sell it here and look out for us for once...
What is the first thing you look for when you buy something for your household?

The average answer is and always will be Price.

When people buy based on quality. When people shop at companies that support thier employees. Then perhaps we can do as you speak.

I see all too often someone making twice what I do and they go shopping for price. Even being a union retiree, they don't care where the product is made or what company they buy it from.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
I wonder if your cousin's fiance would be in favor of simplifying the tax codes, and SEC requirements in such a way as to make accountant's unnecessary... talk about saving the economy a lot of overhead...
HAY!

It's MY fiance!!!

HER COUSIN is the accountant.

We can't eliminate accountants! Who else would want to do that mundane work?
































Ok, so the fiance is studying accounting too, but still... :tonka:
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:09 PM   #26
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your cousin = your fiance = cube = accountant?!











:tonka:

/me ducks and runs from thread
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:12 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
your cousin = your fiance = cube = accountant?!
Oh my.

My fiance = accounting student
My faince's cousin = working accountant
Cube = Heavyset Asian Male who is able to lick his own boobs
Accountant = a person whose profession is inspecting and auditing personal or commercial accounts.

Ok, back to topic.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:20 PM   #28
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re: outsourcing. much like any other opinion on effective management of resources, there are ways to paint it in a positive light, and ways to degrade it. The truth is usually somewhere in between.

As an example, there is a certain Deputy County Executive that I consider a friend, and former mentor. He, in the past has always been vehemently opposed to the County's outsourcing of IT Services, as he's been able to "prove" financially speaking that the County IT Department offers a good value compared to the alternative.

However, of the approximately 200 people employed in the County's IT Building, an ever increasingly large number are now Contractors, instead of FTE's... Many of the project managers are now contract, whereas previously it would have been limited to temporary contract programmers, and/or service technicians needed to facilitate the rapid progress/closure of a project.

I'll let you guess as to the County I'm referring to, but the point was to illustrate, that depending on the mood of the person taking a stance, it's fairly easy to wage the argument in either direction.

One aspect of outsourcing that is pretty easy to prove/correlate, is that outsourcing tends to destabilize an environment. If that's the goal, to shake up the affiliated work forces, it can help meet that goal as well.

I'll let some GM folks chime on on whether they think the insourcing/outsourcing/sole-sourcing of EDS has had any negative impact on their operations...
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:36 PM   #29
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Here is what I' seen with this. Corporations say labor is too costly so they out source. Now They ship the supplies to Mexico to be assembled cheaper. But fuel costs, steel prices etc. it is becoming more costly to ship the materials down to the cheap labor assembly plants, there is no local steel mils in mexico, so costs rise again, the plant now is outsourcing from mexico to where ever it can get it cheaper. Local suppliers deliver inferior material, which is made into a inferior product, US based buisness has to recall product. Cost savings? Now it's cut the US labor wages in half, tis should lower costs, which should lower comsumer prices. the problem lies with corporate greed. The prices will not drop no matter how much out sourcing or labor cost cuts. The CEO will not take a pay cut.
Since outsourcing began has the price of a automobile gone down? NOThe problem is corporate greed not outsourcing.
Just my .02
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:41 PM   #30
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Outsourcing is good!

If you look at world history, the US was at one time the "cheap" labor. During the late 1700s and 1800s the US was producing cheap goods for Europe. When it became too expensive here to make these goods it moved on. The economies in China and Japan are growing and moving much of their production to countries such as Vietnam and Mongolia because their labor is even cheaper. Finance experts understand this. It is the working class that won't take the time to understand it because they feel cheated. Go back to school, learn a new trade. You must adapt to the economy not vice versa.
If we made all the goods here you would not be able to afford most of your every day goods and services. It is plain economics. This is why Walmart is so huge. People buy what they can afford. They want cheaper goods so they can buy more. Our culture buys in excess and is also materialistic. Cut these traits and then you may have an argument.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 03:58 PM   #31
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The only raason that i can see is everybody is out to save a buck weather they are a CEO of a forchin 500 coupany or just your average mimun wage worker
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Old April 9th, 2008, 04:03 PM   #32
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I skipped over most of the responses but here is mine because I am UBER important.

France's cousin is an accountant, which means numbers make sense to him, on paper outsourcing would be the STUPIDEST thing not to do, every single accounting equation based on numbers says to outsource.

Buying foreign, driving foreign and all that noise makes sense on paper until your economy is collapsing and homes are being foreclosed in the hundreds per day
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Old April 9th, 2008, 04:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K&J's Dad View Post
Outsourcing is good!

If you look at world history, the US was at one time the "cheap" labor. During the late 1700s and 1800s the US was producing cheap goods for Europe. When it became too expensive here to make these goods it moved on. The economies in China and Japan are growing and moving much of their production to countries such as Vietnam and Mongolia because their labor is even cheaper. Finance experts understand this. It is the working class that won't take the time to understand it because they feel cheated. Go back to school, learn a new trade. You must adapt to the economy not vice versa.
If we made all the goods here you would not be able to afford most of your every day goods and services. It is plain economics. This is why Walmart is so huge. People buy what they can afford. They want cheaper goods so they can buy more. Our culture buys in excess and is also materialistic. Cut these traits and then you may have an argument.
Ok.

I'm going to school and learning engineering (a field that, I believe, can be turned into a service if necessary). I feel I am trying to adapt to a changing world economy, so no biggie there (for me anyway).

I understand that we don't make all of the goods here. People invent things in China too, and I'd venture to guess that most of those goods get produced there, and I'm not complaining about that. We didn't invent the XBOX or whatever and then outsource it. I am concerned about the things that we did create, and are currently inventing, that are being sent away. That's where my comments several posts ago about 'outsourcing to be competitive' come in. I understand that, I guess.

I suppose I'm just left with a depressed feeling after reading that. From you're responses, we're killing ourselves (which, I'll admit, is no big surprise). And the best thing we have to look forward to is when we drop our standard of living to become equal with other countries (as far as labor costs) and become someone else's bitch (pardon my wording produced in france and delivered here :tonka: ).

Is that a benefit?

I suppose I should clarify...I view a benefit as something that is good for the typical American citizen (I understand that the world must go on, but I'm more concerned with where I am and the nation I depend on at this moment..sorry if that's my shallow mindedness coming out).

Was it good for Britan having us producing things for them? I suppose it was up until that point where we realized what we had going for us and kicked their buttoxes.

Can we keep 'enjoying lower costs and cheaper products' if we don't have jobs? Where will the work be?

Sorry for sounding selfish, but what's in it for us?
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Old April 9th, 2008, 04:43 PM   #34
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just tell him hajie can do math to and he will eventually be out scorced like everyone else see how he figures that
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Old April 9th, 2008, 05:34 PM   #35
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I have watched outsourcing destroy MI,OH, the auto industry and quite a few other things so I will type slowly so the simpletons can understand....

Exhibit A:


That toothpick employs hundreds if not thousands of people.

Guy who cuts the wood works for a company that has a receptionist, bookkeeper, lawyer,insurance salesman, lawn care, and the people who maintain and sell the equipment they use..not to mention the other guys who are on regular payroll. probably a small business.

He takes that wood to a mill. That mill will have another hundred or so people that work to make the wood smaller...and all the "other" people that the mill uses to take care of it's employees and business.

The wood then goes to the toothpick factory, and gets put in a box made from a box factory or paper mill.

That toothpick then goes in a truck to wal-mart where some kid puts it on a shelf.

The "other" people who depend on the people who make toothpicks are:
lawyers
doctors
day care providers
carry outs
car salesman
hardware stores
pizza shops
insurance saleman
financial advisors
etc. etc. etc. etc.


If toothpicks are outsourced then the jobs that are needed here are a dozen guys on a ship,few guys at a shipyard,few guys to drive a truck, and that kid putting it on the shelf.

Anybody that thinks outsourcing is good, or benefits anyone but shareholders does not understand simple math, economics....or has drank so much Kool-aid their teeth are rotted.

btw I am an EXPERT on this subject. I live it everyday.

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Old April 9th, 2008, 05:35 PM   #36
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If accountants and lawyers like something, I don't.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 06:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
Ok.

I'm going to school and learning engineering (a field that, I believe, can be turned into a service if necessary). I feel I am trying to adapt to a changing world economy, so no biggie there (for me anyway).

I suppose I'm just left with a depressed feeling after reading that. From you're responses, we're killing ourselves (which, I'll admit, is no big surprise). And the best thing we have to look forward to is when we drop our standard of living to become equal with other countries (as far as labor costs) and become someone else's bitch (pardon my wording produced in france and delivered here :tonka: ).

Was it good for Britan having us producing things for them? I suppose it was up until that point where we realized what we had going for us and kicked their buttoxes.
Engineering is a great degree. No matter where something is made it can be designed anywhere. Usually where the main company is located or near manufacturing. It all depends on the company. Toyota and Honda have engineers in the US and the Big Three have engineers overseas.

The "average" worker needs to adapt or our economy will suffer greatly. It is the lazy workers that made good money doing stupids jobs for the Big Three that are the most pissed. They don't have an education or any real experience to get another job. Plus they became accustomed to make a certain wage and won't "settle" for anything less.

The major countries of Europe have not collapsed economically because they don't make the majority of the products they consume. We most likely won't either. Europe is doing quite well right now. Look at the currency rates. They learned to adapt and change. Most of it started with educating their workforce.

We will always have manufacturing jobs of some sort in the US. You can't outsource everything!

Us beating up on Britain had nothing to do with us making stuff for them. Even during war time we still had to trade. Business is business. No matter who our allies or enemies are we still trade with them. We even trade with Cuba to an extent. Still can't get their cigars but there is trade going on between the countries.

The best thing you can do to protect your career is to be educated and also to be willing to change careers at some point. An engineering degree is a great start. You can always start in engineering and then as you gain experience move into the business side. Building a resume with multiple experiences is a wonderful tool to utilize.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 06:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
The "other" people who depend on the people who make toothpicks are:
lawyers
doctors
day care providers
carry outs
car salesman
hardware stores
pizza shops
insurance saleman
financial advisors
etc. etc. etc. etc.


If toothpicks are outsourced then the jobs that are needed here are a dozen guys on a ship,few guys at a shipyard,few guys to drive a truck, and that kid putting it on the shelf.

Anybody that thinks outsourcing is good, or benefits anyone but shareholders does not understand simple math, economics....or has drank so much Kool-aid their teeth are rotted.

btw I am an EXPERT on this subject. I live it everyday.

No this is called putting all your eggs in one basket. When you rely on one industry, it collapses unless something else can sustain it. ie - Flint and the auto plants. If this one industry fails, the town and surrounding areas fail. See also - the gold rush out west. This why there are ghost towns.

How it should work - see Chicago. Diversified heavily so if one industry fails, it isn't affected as areas in previous description.

Michigan depends on the auto industry way too much. The workers were happy when they got bonuses and fat pay raises when the industry did well. Did they invest these bonuses just in case the industry went south?? Of course not! They bought bigger houses and lots of toys. Now they can't afford that life style anymore. I don't feel sorry for them one bit. Living high on the hog when times are good and then bitching up a storm because THEY didn't prepare for the negative. Some probably never even invested for their retirement. They just "expect" a pension to cover them. It is easy to blame someone else even if you did nothing for yourself.

Most large companies offer tuition reimbursement or education assistance. I'd like to see the numbers on how many people took advantage of this over the last 20-30 years. I'd bet the number would be extremely low. The number one investment someone can make for themselves is an education! My employer paid well over $20k for my education. That is $20k in free money that I invested in myself to get a bigger salary that is paying nice dividends.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 07:22 PM   #39
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I didn't see that this thread was necessarily about outsourcing automotive, manufacturing, or Michigan.

Fact is a great number of jobs are being outsourced to contract resources. Simply being agile, and/or educated isn't the panacea that many think/hope it would/could be. Chrysler's recent axing of IT resources is just another example that happens to be in the automotive sector.

On a social level, if one is going to attempt to be pro-outsourcing as an advocate for leveling the playing field, then it truly needs to be a level playing field. Taxation (from all forms, including tariffs on the imported goods/services) needs to be fully level.

Fact is, it never will be.

We're a melting pot, founded on immigration of cheap labor. The difference today, is that the immigrated cheap labor of our grandparents generations saved up, and sent for their families to come here, and invested in this country, and became productive in this country.

Today's imported cheap labor doesn't even bother to get green cards, let alone save and become productive in this country...
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Old April 9th, 2008, 07:26 PM   #40
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Are we talking about outsourcing and keeping the work in this country or are we talking about foriegn outsourcing or both, because the answer could be different for each.
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