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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:41 AM   #81
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Until heterosexual parades are allowed, homosexual ones should be found as discrimination because that's exactly how heterosexual parades would be perceived.

Heterosexuality doesn't get shoved in anyone's face. In society and the media, they want to shove it (homosexuality) in everyone's face that it's ok and acceptable. Well, not everyone will accept it or approve. I think this is what people, including myself get sick of. I could care less what you want to do with your cock and where you want to put it. If you want it in another man's ass, then fine but I don't want it shoved in my face telling me that it's ok and natural. I don't give a shit and I don't want to hear about it.

I feel this same way in regards to animal rights psychos, other liberal greenpeace hippy psychos, and several other "causes" that are out there.

There you go GreaseMonkey! Let's DESTROY that f***ing environement. Screw the oceans. Screw the forests. Screw the wildlife. Let's just live in a big ol' desert where we can drill out all the oil we want and tear shit up. Hey, maybe you could move to Iraq!
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:42 AM   #82
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It's on every station
"EVERY STATION"??? r-r-r-r-r-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght.....
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:46 AM   #83
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One of the obvious and major flaws in that study is that their placing of subjects into the homophbic or honhomophobic groups was done based on the subjects' responses to a "homophobia" survey questionnaire. Since there was no attempt to determine the truthfullness of the responders when completing that questionnaire, that unfortunately negated the validity of their division of the subjects into those two groups. That is, the groups they called homophobic and nonhomophobic may not have differed at all on the quality the researchers called "homophobia" -- they may have only differed on their truthfulness or non-truthfulness when responding to the questionnaire.

If that were the case, then the differences in penile size observed by the researchers when the two groups were watching male homosexual stimuli may have been correlated to differences in truthfulness rather than differences in homophobia.

Failure to control for the effects of extraneous variables in correlational studies such as the one cited above are usually the major flaw in such studies, and the one that precludes their conclusions from being generalized to situations outside of the narow confines of their study. Much like the government "research" that was done in the 1950s and 1960s that purported to show that 80% of marijuana users were likely to wind up using heroin.
Or listen to jazz.....
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:53 AM   #84
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I read my posts and I never suggested you gave an opinion.
Yes you did... "I have to presume your a gay child molester since your so cemented into your opinion about gays, I would suggest you look up NAMBLA unless you are a member already. This is a gay group that is fighting for sexaual rights based on sexual prefence, the sexual preference there talking about is the right of an adult man to have sex with young boy's. Thats a gay thing, and thats child molesting, tell me you oppose that and then see what your position is when some moron tells you you must have a deep seated desire to be this way because of an unscientific bias meaningless report.
Maybee you do, but I don't.

Your the genius that presented the logic, I just offered another way to apply it."
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Old April 7th, 2008, 12:34 PM   #85
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There you go GreaseMonkey! Let's DESTROY that f***ing environement. Screw the oceans. Screw the forests. Screw the wildlife. Let's just live in a big ol' desert where we can drill out all the oil we want and tear shit up. Hey, maybe you could move to Iraq!
Yea, um maybe you could overreact just a little more to my post, and also take it completely the wrong way.

The only point I was making is there are several causes out there that people go absolutely berserk over, and want to shove it in everyone else's face.

I happened to pick animal rights people and environment hippies.

I did not once say that I want the environment destroyed and want to screw wildlife. I'm not into bestiality, but maybe you are since you are advocating screwing animals.

I don't want the environment destroyed, or animals to be beat senselessly. I was making my post in regards to the extremists of any cause.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #86
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As offensive as some words, thoughts, opinions or statements can be, there is no worse offense than to deny a person free speech.


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ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations (8/31/2000)


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


NEW YORK--In the United States Supreme Court over the past few years, the American Civil Liberties Union has taken the side of a fundamentalist Christian church, a Santerian church, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide. In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.

It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today.


If you indeed support Freedom of Speech, logically, you would agree with this statement.
I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to have and express it.

Now, actions are a whole other discussion.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 01:49 PM   #87
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Yes you did... "I have to presume your a gay child molester since your so cemented into your opinion about gays, I would suggest you look up NAMBLA unless you are a member already. This is a gay group that is fighting for sexaual rights based on sexual prefence, the sexual preference there talking about is the right of an adult man to have sex with young boy's. Thats a gay thing, and thats child molesting, tell me you oppose that and then see what your position is when some moron tells you you must have a deep seated desire to be this way because of an unscientific bias meaningless report.
Maybee you do, but I don't.

Your the genius that presented the logic, I just offered another way to apply it."
Sorry I was actually being presumputuous in what his opinion might be, shame on me.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 01:56 PM   #88
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Old April 7th, 2008, 02:05 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
As offensive as some words, thoughts, opinions or statements can be, there is no worse offense than to deny a person free speech.






If you indeed support Freedom of Speech, logically, you would agree with this statement.
I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to have and express it.

Now, actions are a whole other discussion.
In as much as I would love to whole-heartedly embrace the press release of the ACLU and what it stands for, this country has proven time and again that there will always be an asshat to press the extreme boundaries of reasonableness.

there have been, and I would submit ought to be some limitations to freedom of speech.

examples include:
  • the obvious national security, even if often abused.
  • the obvious, you can't shout "fire" in crowded movie theatre
  • and finally the "obscene" which is where we always end up divided over.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 02:40 PM   #90
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In as much as I would love to whole-heartedly embrace the press release of the ACLU and what it stands for, this country has proven time and again that there will always be an asshat to press the extreme boundaries of reasonableness.

there have been, and I would submit ought to be some limitations to freedom of speech.

examples include:
  • the obvious national security, even if often abused.
  • the obvious, you can't shout "fire" in crowded movie theatre
  • and finally the "obscene" which is where we always end up divided over.


People will always be divided on what constitutes "obscene". The other 2 points you made, well that is just common sense. There are also limitations when it involves direct harm to others. ( by that I mean person 1 doing harm to person 2 by use of words)

The point of the suit was that the written word as part of free speech is protected, although the act it supports may not be (and in the case of NAMBLA should never be).

IMO, the ACLU's stance was more about the principles of free speech and the erosion of those principles. Sometimes you must protect what disgusts you in order to save that which you adore. It is a concept.

And for the record, the subject of the NAMBLA suit makes my skin crawl and makes me want to hunt these cretins down and execute them slowly. In defense of the ACLU, they would never support someone accused of the actual crime of child molestation, even though some may spin their stance to mean that.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #91
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People will always be divided on what constitutes "obscene". The other 2 points you made, well that is just common sense. There are also limitations when it involves direct harm to others. ( by that I mean person 1 doing harm to person 2 by use of words)

The point of the suit was that the written word as part of free speech is protected, although the act it supports may not be (and in the case of NAMBLA should never be).

IMO, the ACLU's stance was more about the principles of free speech and the erosion of those principles. Sometimes you must protect what disgusts you in order to save that which you adore. It is a concept.

And for the record, the subject of the NAMBLA suit makes my skin crawl and makes me want to hunt these cretins down and execute them slowly. In defense of the ACLU, they would never support someone accused of the actual crime of child molestation, even though some may spin their stance to mean that.
I understand that, as well as the ACLU's stance, objective in pursuing the suit.

That being said, while I admire the ACLU's drive to remain pure to their advancement, and protection of civil liberties, we are in a time period where the pendulum of civil liberties seemingly is always swinging violently to and fro, rather than attempting to achieve a middle ground.

I am one of those folks that believes that the principal of certain individual civil liberties need not match up exactly in the execution of those civil liberties. There have been, and always will be areas where there are abuses, and tests to be adjudicated to determine where we are on the continuum at that given time.

As for obscene I also understand that it's a tough call, and there is no universal test, or application of same that can definitively state what is and what is not obscene.

the old standby of Robert Maplethorpe's "art" while technically a brilliant example of photography was done in my opinion largely with a subject matter that was more or less obscene. the obscene nature of it was then a vehicle to provoke the thought provoking, or inspirational side of it as "art", which usually then follows the loose interpretation of "freedom of speech".

perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive to it these days with an impressionable 8 year old at home that's been pretty computer profficient for a number of years, and as one seemingly can't execute a normal google search without finding 3 out of 10 resulting pages containing banner ads, and flash advertising that includes graphic pornographic material...
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Old April 7th, 2008, 03:53 PM   #92
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I understand that, as well as the ACLU's stance, objective in pursuing the suit.

That being said, while I admire the ACLU's drive to remain pure to their advancement, and protection of civil liberties, we are in a time period where the pendulum of civil liberties seemingly is always swinging violently to and fro, rather than attempting to achieve a middle ground.

I am one of those folks that believes that the principal of certain individual civil liberties need not match up exactly in the execution of those civil liberties. There have been, and always will be areas where there are abuses, and tests to be adjudicated to determine where we are on the continuum at that given time.

As for obscene I also understand that it's a tough call, and there is no universal test, or application of same that can definitively state what is and what is not obscene.

the old standby of Robert Maplethorpe's "art" while technically a brilliant example of photography was done in my opinion largely with a subject matter that was more or less obscene. the obscene nature of it was then a vehicle to provoke the thought provoking, or inspirational side of it as "art", which usually then follows the loose interpretation of "freedom of speech".

perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive to it these days with an impressionable 8 year old at home that's been pretty computer profficient for a number of years, and as one seemingly can't execute a normal google search without finding 3 out of 10 resulting pages containing banner ads, and flash advertising that includes graphic pornographic material...

Very well stated!
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Old April 7th, 2008, 06:37 PM   #93
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There you go GreaseMonkey! Let's DESTROY that f***ing environement. Screw the oceans. Screw the forests. Screw the wildlife. Let's just live in a big ol' desert where we can drill out all the oil we want and tear shit up. Hey, maybe you could move to Iraq!

You ever notice that whenever anyone tries to pose a truly calm, logical question to Mr. Toes he fires back some sort of smart ass response?

HMMMM!! Kettle or Pot
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:07 PM   #94
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Another mature response to a discussion. I read my posts and I never suggested you gave an opinion.
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I have to presume your a gay child molester since your so cemented into your opinion about gays
Does this not say that I have an opinoin about gays?

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I expect some useless name calling is in order.
Finally you are right about something, douchebag.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:22 PM   #95
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If you don't like gay people, so what. I don't like most of the people I meet but that doesn't mean I secretly want to be like them. Disliking a person's lifestyle but tolerating it is perfectly acceptable. Disliking a person's (gay) lifestyle and intimidating, ridiculing, assulting, or discriminating against them is homophobia.

I feel the most radical opposers of homosexuality secretly want a pee pee where they poo poo.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 07:40 AM   #96
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Does this not say that I have an opinoin about gays?

Nice, your 10hrs. and 7 posts late.



Finally you are right about something, douchebag.
So predictable, have you ever been checked for extra chromosomes.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 09:39 AM   #97
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regarding the study that was bantered back and forth on.

I'm curious if anyone is actually a physiological expert, and/or a sexology expert. The reason I ask, is that it apparently isn't unusual for male aggression to trigger a penile response.

If the outrageously homophobic, gay haters were shown gay intimate imagery, is it feasible that the penile response was due to a rage/violence reaction?

As an example, look at ancient tribal art, the male warriors frequently sported erections in battle. Similarily, thanks to Animal Planet showing the jousting behaviour of large antelopes, I got to explain the difference in unit size between a large 4 legged beast, and my 5 year old a few weeks back...
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Old April 8th, 2008, 12:54 PM   #98
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regarding the study that was bantered back and forth on.

I'm curious if anyone is actually a physiological expert, and/or a sexology expert. The reason I ask, is that it apparently isn't unusual for male aggression to trigger a penile response.

If the outrageously homophobic, gay haters were shown gay intimate imagery, is it feasible that the penile response was due to a rage/violence reaction?

As an example, look at ancient tribal art, the male warriors frequently sported erections in battle. Similarily, thanks to Animal Planet showing the jousting behaviour of large antelopes, I got to explain the difference in unit size between a large 4 legged beast, and my 5 year old a few weeks back...

Here's a qoute from the link.

" The results suggest that defensive homophobics have an implicit aversion rather than an implicit attraction to gay sexual stimuli."
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Old April 8th, 2008, 01:14 PM   #99
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Here's a qoute from the link.

" The results suggest that defensive homophobics have an implicit aversion rather than an implicit attraction to gay sexual stimuli."
ah, I didn't read the study/link - just saw some of the bantering about what the possible implications were from the 'research'.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 06:49 PM   #100
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So predictable, have you ever been checked for extra chromosomes.
No I have not. But I just checked to see if a I have a life. It appears I do because I'm not on GL4X4 6 times a day like yourself. I talk to people in person most of the time.
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