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Old April 4th, 2008, 05:03 PM   #161
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now that I've had a bite of pizza.

to those that assert the harm vs. harmfulness of religion. do you equally state that "guns kill people" ? or more appropriately believe it's people that kill people...


as to the comments of my association with "nutty" sects of Christianity (or other religions). (e.g. the hitler discussion)

I myself believe that I am a talented vocalist. Others will/may disagree. I guess at this point it's safest to just disagree on that point as well...
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Old April 4th, 2008, 05:03 PM   #162
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1/3 of an entire population is a small percentage? in all of my 20+ years being employed in the field of statistics that's a first... you incorrectly assert I prove your point on that particular regard especially... Yes. 1/3 is MUCH smaller than 2/3.

my commute home, and pending dinner interrupted my replies temporarily.

as for the peer review. answer me this if you can. is there any possibility that the entire peer review process while logical, and standing to reason itself is flawed? Yes. I never said it was perfect. I assert that it least is questioned and tested. I cannot say that for religion.

can you conceive of the possibility that it in and of itself is self-correcting, and/or flawed in anyway? If it were self correcting it would sustain the same theories without change. No. You're wrong there. THat is why there are always new theories to replace the old.

do you have so much faith in the scientific process, and those of man-made review, that you out of practice dismiss any theory, or fact not supported by same? No. See above for explanation.

you indicated we that profess faith don't do "due diligence" by automatically not doubting the word. due diligence? have you personally done your due diligence to personally verify that each and every scientific theory that you base your world surroundings, and beliefs upon is valid? On those that haven't already been thoroughly doubted and reproven ad nauseum. But I'll be quite delighted to do so for you any scientific conclusion you suggest. If I don't have the power to do it myself, I will happily find the research and testing that HAS been done and provide it to you.

of course not. therefor it would be a bit more open minded of you to concede that some of us don't have it "all figured out"... It would be even MORE open minded for YOU to admit that that Christianity (and Mr. Toes) don't have it all figured out. I never said I did. Please, tell me where I have.

you also stated in that particular post that "it helps" for the scientist to doubt the theory in order to adequately prove it. To clarify, it helps if the scientist doubts it so that they dismiss bias. I've never heard of a human being that can truly say they possess NO BIAS. Can YOU?

funny, from what I recall of various courses, one is supposed to propose hypothesis antithesis without any subjective pro/con feeling towards it... in fact in the field of statistical analysis one runs the model time and again with various hypothesis tests over and over again to make sure that one's individual bias, or preferential opinion do not lead one to a premature conclusion.
Thereagain PROVING that at least scientific method at least ATTEMPTS to look at ideas from all angles to make sure they aren't proceeding on flawed beliefs. Thanks again for proving me right.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 05:16 PM   #163
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1/3 of a population of 6-7 billion is hardly justified in being called a "small percentage" regardless of whether it's technically correct to state mathematically that it's much smaller than 2/3...

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can you conceive of the possibility that it in and of itself is self-correcting, and/or flawed in anyway? If it were self correcting it would sustain the same theories without change. No. You're wrong there. THat is why there are always new theories to replace the old.


I'm wrong? I don't recall stating a hypothesis, or making an assertion - only asking a question to determine how much if at all philosophical analysis you (or others had done about the process)


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of course not. therefor it would be a bit more open minded of you to concede that some of us don't have it "all figured out"... It would be even MORE open minded for YOU to admit that that Christianity (and Mr. Toes) don't have it all figured out. I never said I did. Please, tell me where I have.


I am very happy to admit that Mr. Toes, myself, or all of the scientists, priests, nuns, and atheists on the planet don't have it "all figured out".

bah, I gotta run - wife invited neighbors over for dinner...
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Old April 4th, 2008, 07:03 PM   #164
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What do you mean I don't have it all figured out?
If you guys disassemble your generalized opinions and take them point by point, quit debating generalized opinions and discuss facts you will see you agree on most everthing, but that would be kind of boring.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:02 PM   #165
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What do you mean I don't have it all figured out?
If you guys disassemble your generalized opinions and take them point by point, quit debating generalized opinions and discuss facts you will see you agree on most everthing, but that would be kind of boring.
I think you may actually have it all figured out!
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:08 PM   #166
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I think you may actually have it all figured out!
See like I said everbody agrees with each other.lol
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:35 PM   #167
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Please provide some links that take empirically gathered data and logically explain such as proof of a god.
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Link here to artical/Website
Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.
I can't prove to you something you don't want to believe in. If you want imperical Charts look up any scientific Journal and show me were it proves there is NO God. You can't. There is no thing on this planet that can prove the lack of a Creator. Of course, it's all interpretation of the facts. LIke I've said before, My belief is that there is a God that created me, Loves me, Has given me a Greater purpose in life, and has offered me Eternal life. You believe in cold, Distance, science. It woudl seem I've made the logical Choice.

P.S. Did you get a new 4x4 or did you just miss us.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:42 PM   #168
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I can't prove to you something you don't want to believe in. If you want imperical Charts look up any scientific Journal and show me were it proves there is NO God. You can't. There is no thing on this planet that can prove the lack of a Creator. Of course, it's all interpretation of the facts. LIke I've said before, My belief is that there is a God that created me, Loves me, Has given me a Greater purpose in life, and has offered me Eternal life. You believe in cold, Distance, science. It woudl seem I've made the logical Choice.

P.S. Did you get a new 4x4 or did you just miss us.

Scientist won't prove there is no God, they are to busy proving there own therories are wrong.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:45 PM   #169
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Scientist won't prove there is no God, they are to busy proving there own therories are wrong.


:dunie: Silly me, I forgot.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:52 PM   #170
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:dunie: Silly me, I forgot.
Don't worry I won't let that happen.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:10 AM   #171
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I can't prove to you something you don't want to believe in. If you want imperical Charts look up any scientific Journal and show me were it proves there is NO God. You can't. There is no thing on this planet that can prove the lack of a Creator. Of course, it's all interpretation of the facts. LIke I've said before, My belief is that there is a God that created me, Loves me, Has given me a Greater purpose in life, and has offered me Eternal life. You believe in cold, Distance, science. It woudl seem I've made the logical Choice.

P.S. Did you get a new 4x4 or did you just miss us.
I covered this ad nauseum in the earlier thread arguing the bible, but you guys keep going back to it. The burden of proof (disproof) is not on me, it's on the claimant. If you claim there is a god, you should be able to prove it, or at least provide some factual (verifiable) data to substantiate it.

As far as Mr. Toes and all of you talking about the 'missing link', and this sudden jump from monkey to man:

1. Science doesn't say we came from monkeys or apes, they say we came from creatures propbably very similar. No claim of "jump from one species to another" has been made that I am aware of, and if there was, I believe that most credible science would laugh at it.

2. There has been provided over the years tons of evidence to support that our physical structures changed over the centuries, and that is due to the evolution of the specie.

3. There was no presupposition about evolution when Darwin visited the Gallapagos Islands. He noted very different species of animals and mammals and was very puzzled by what he found. He took extensive notes and drawings and studied and compared them in detail and came up with a conclusion that might suggest that species evolve. He was not at all certain of this at the time, but he published this conclusion (during a time when religion reigned supreme) for people to consider. It has since taken off as more and more scientists find evidence to further support the belief.

As I keep saying over and over, science uses verifiable and repeatable results as evidence to support a theory or conclusion, then they publish such for others to pick apart, verify, disprove, or whatever. Some survie, others don't, but hey, that's science.

Religion is unwilling to provide verifiable and repeatable results as evidence to support there being a maker. If you have such, please provide me with a link.

As far as Mr. Toes arguing the freezing temperature of water, he's absolutely correct, but all of those variants can be measured, predicted, tested and repeated, so even in any given variable the results can still be predicted using scientific method.

I don't know what the religious fear of science is, but to say that documenting the results of repeated tests and holding them up for examination could be called "lies" is beyond me. You use science all the time when you build a wheeler. Scientifically tested materials and methods go in to every wheeler, every firearm, and nearly every product you buy. The clothes you wear have been improved by the use of scientific methods (breakthroughs in fabrics, synthetics, etc.). Science is a part of your everyday life, and without it you would still be trying to kill animals with your bare hands. I, however, can go through my day, day after day, without your god and live a great life. Moral, free, and happy.

As far as being accused of liking to "stir things up", you're saying what I don't feel. I read and listen and when I have a thought that disagrees with yours you accuse me of acting in a provocative way. Who are you to say what my motives are? I have been addressing you in a calm and reasonable manner, and you have to lob insults. Tsk-tsk. Sounds like someone needs to go back to debate class....
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:11 AM   #172
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I can't prove to you something you don't want to believe in. If you want imperical Charts look up any scientific Journal and show me were it proves there is NO God. You can't. There is no thing on this planet that can prove the lack of a Creator. Of course, it's all interpretation of the facts. LIke I've said before, My belief is that there is a God that created me, Loves me, Has given me a Greater purpose in life, and has offered me Eternal life. You believe in cold, Distance, science. It woudl seem I've made the logical Choice.

P.S. Did you get a new 4x4 or did you just miss us.
Oh yeah, I WANT to believe in your god, but no one can show me anything even remotely resembling evidence. If you could, I might.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:21 AM   #173
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Oh yeah, I WANT to believe in your god, but no one can show me anything even remotely resembling evidence. If you could, I might.
x2 I would LOVE to know that I will be reunited with my loved ones after death, but God just doesn't talk to me like he talks to you believers. If he did, I might be inclined to believe. maybe he just hates me and wants me to burn in eternal hellfire, well, you know what they say, heaven for climate, hell for company.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:30 AM   #174
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now that I've had a bite of pizza.

to those that assert the harm vs. harmfulness of religion. do you equally state that "guns kill people" ? or more appropriately believe it's people that kill people...


as to the comments of my association with "nutty" sects of Christianity (or other religions). (e.g. the hitler discussion)

I myself believe that I am a talented vocalist. Others will/may disagree. I guess at this point it's safest to just disagree on that point as well...
What kind of pizza?

I would love to respond to that: I never said that guns kill people, but I will assert that people often use guns to kill people, just as people often use religion (in whatever context they hold dear) to kill, oppress, and control people.

Guns are very harmful. That is their purpose. To inflict some form of damage to the recipient of the bullet. Whether it's your prey or your target that you use for practice, you inflict damage. That is the intent. That is the result. Verifiable. Repeateable. Predictable. Therefore might as well be fact.

Based on the history of your bible and the history of Rome, the Ecumenical Councils, and the Roman Catholic Church, oppression and control may or may not have beeen the intended results, but it sure looks that way.

Modern Christianity in an evolved society has gained autonomy from the RCC, and ancient Rome is a history lesson in school, but have retained the bible and taken from it what is useful to them. That is a good thing. I like that. Use it as a guide. Use it to propogate love and charity. But to say that this was all made by magic and that is the answer and that's that seems a bit primitive. To say that maybe it is just a story that worked at the time, and maybe the answer is quite possibly different, and to say that none of us.... NONE OF US, really know the answer, but it is a question that is quite interesting and well worth research and experimentation and pursuit, is scientific.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 11:31 AM   #175
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x2 I would LOVE to know that I will be reunited with my loved ones after death, but God just doesn't talk to me like he talks to you believers. If he did, I might be inclined to believe. maybe he just hates me and wants me to burn in eternal hellfire, well, you know what they say, heaven for climate, hell for company.
Could you imagine the two of us actually believing? Wow... We would be some powerful preachers.....
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Old April 7th, 2008, 12:31 PM   #176
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What kind of pizza?

I would love to respond to that: I never said that guns kill people, but I will assert that people often use guns to kill people, just as people often use religion (in whatever context they hold dear) to kill, oppress, and control people.

Guns are very harmful. That is their purpose. To inflict some form of damage to the recipient of the bullet. Whether it's your prey or your target that you use for practice, you inflict damage. That is the intent. That is the result. Verifiable. Repeateable. Predictable. Therefore might as well be fact.

Based on the history of your bible and the history of Rome, the Ecumenical Councils, and the Roman Catholic Church, oppression and control may or may not have beeen the intended results, but it sure looks that way.

Modern Christianity in an evolved society has gained autonomy from the RCC, and ancient Rome is a history lesson in school, but have retained the bible and taken from it what is useful to them. That is a good thing. I like that. Use it as a guide. Use it to propogate love and charity. But to say that this was all made by magic and that is the answer and that's that seems a bit primitive. To say that maybe it is just a story that worked at the time, and maybe the answer is quite possibly different, and to say that none of us.... NONE OF US, really know the answer, but it is a question that is quite interesting and well worth research and experimentation and pursuit, is scientific.
I very much see your point, but have to disagree on the gun being harmful. A gun is inherently an inanimate object. With very few notable exceptions a gun by itself creates no harm.

There is very little on this planet that can't be used to create harm/damage. Call me uncreative but I actually can't think of a single thing that if properly deployed, used, or mis-used will not create harm to another object, or life force.

I chose the illustration of a gun, as it is one that inherently stirs up additional debate due to inclusion in the Federal Constitution, and it makes for nice catch-phrases on bumper stickers.

What I was alluding to, is that despite our best intentions it is Mankind that is harmful. Mr. Nobel knew it all to well when he invented dynamite, (or discovered its components, I confess to not remembering basic historic details on some things and am rushing to complete lunch and get back to work on that regard).

As for scientific theory, testing, and replication. I guess for those unable to make a leap of faith, the only thing I can offer up for you (that doesn't rely strictly upon authorities that you refuse to acknowledge) is that it's as of now, an unproven theory as far as you are concerned.

I think however, that if you were to propose a reverse hypothesis, and statistically analyze the sheer odds of everything being randomly created, even the rates of expansion of matter in the univese you might find that the odds are infinitessimally small that we're here simply by random chance... for those of you trapped in pure science, you may see it as me being lazy, or giving up on science which I haven't. I have however found enough to have that leap of faith, and readily admit that it may not stand the test of pure logic. But then, neither does the love I have for my wife and family...

The Pizza Friday night? Came from The Fenton House, along with a large greek salad, and their infamous breadsticks. The breadstick recipe they share with sister restaurants like EG Knicks, and while not technically affiliated with the Highland House, are a convincing replica, with a perfect blend of salty/garlic/butter generously applied with what appears to be a paint brush fresh out of the oven. The pizzas were the following: plain cheese with extra cheese for the kids. one that was ˝ Ham ˝ Pepperoni, and some pesto/vegan concoction that reminded me of a Chinese buffet, complete with peapods that I didn't partake in.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 03:51 PM   #177
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I very much see your point, but have to disagree on the gun being harmful. A gun is inherently an inanimate object. With very few notable exceptions a gun by itself creates no harm. But it is created to inflict harm. No other purpose.

There is very little on this planet that can't be used to create harm/damage. Call me uncreative but I actually can't think of a single thing that if properly deployed, used, or mis-used will not create harm to another object, or life force. But you only asked about guns, so I only responded to guns. Don't divert.

I chose the illustration of a gun, as it is one that inherently stirs up additional debate due to inclusion in the Federal Constitution, and it makes for nice catch-phrases on bumper stickers.

What I was alluding to, is that despite our best intentions it is Mankind that is harmful. Animals, mammals, reptiles, etc are all harmful too. When they are, it's "nature", when we are it's "sin". Mr. Nobel knew it all to well when he invented dynamite, (or discovered its components, I confess to not remembering basic historic details on some things and am rushing to complete lunch and get back to work on that regard).

As for scientific theory, testing, and replication. I guess for those unable Why choose that word? Why not say "unwilling to adopt such a theory based on the current evidence"? to make a leap of faith, the only thing I can offer up for you (that doesn't rely strictly upon authorities that you refuse to acknowledge again with the derogatory phraseology.... Why not, "refuse to submit without logical basis" ) is that it's as of now, an unproven theory as far as you are concerned. Agreed.

I think however, that if you were to propose a reverse hypothesis, and statistically analyze the sheer odds of everything being randomly created, even the rates of expansion of matter in the univese you might find that the odds are infinitessimally small that we're here simply by random chance... So? We are infinitessimally small compared to the rest of the vast universe.... for those of you trapped again with the derogatory words? How about, "that prefer"?in pure science, you may see it as me being lazy, or giving up on science which I haven't.Nope. I don't see it that way. You have clarifed your respect for science several times over. You even use it to argue pro-faith. I have however found enough to have that leap of faith, and readily admit that it may not stand the test of pure logic. But then, neither does the love I have for my wife and family... Sure it does. Why wouldn't it? The study of human emotions, among other "intangibles", falls within the field of scientific study. What is illogical is the oposite.

The Pizza Friday night? Came from The Fenton House, along with a large greek salad, and their infamous breadsticks. The breadstick recipe they share with sister restaurants like EG Knicks, and while not technically affiliated with the Highland House, are a convincing replica, with a perfect blend of salty/garlic/butter generously applied with what appears to be a paint brush fresh out of the oven. The pizzas were the following: plain cheese with extra cheese for the kids. one that was ˝ Ham ˝ Pepperoni, and some pesto/vegan concoction that reminded me of a Chinese buffet, complete with peapods that I didn't partake in.
Sounds tasty.

Segue... My wife and I throw a huge Cinco De Mayo bash at our home every year. What a hoot it woulld be to have you guys over. Lot's of food and drinks and peoople from all walks of life. Current guest list is over 70 people strong and growing. I always wanted to meet Mr. Toes in person..... Make him a Margarita from scratch, or maybe shake him up a Tequilatini...
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Old April 7th, 2008, 06:42 PM   #178
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Sounds tasty.

Segue... My wife and I throw a huge Cinco De Mayo bash at our home every year. What a hoot it woulld be to have you guys over. Lot's of food and drinks and peoople from all walks of life. Current guest list is over 70 people strong and growing. I always wanted to meet Mr. Toes in person..... Make him a Margarita from scratch, or maybe shake him up a Tequilatini...
I'll drink Crown Royal or water or Crown Royal and water. Thats the best this Russian can do.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 09:30 PM   #179
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Could you imagine the two of us actually believing? Wow... We would be some powerful preachers.....
You are absoutely right.............

And Mike, I hope God does talk to you someday...........
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Old April 7th, 2008, 10:36 PM   #180
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I covered this ad nauseum in the earlier thread arguing the bible, but you guys keep going back to it. The burden of proof (disproof) is not on me, it's on the claimant. If you claim there is a god, you should be able to prove it, or at least provide some factual (verifiable) data to substantiate it.
I believe that the Burden of proof lies on both sides. Saying it solely lies on me or toes is copping out. Honestly, If you can SHOW ME solid proof of a Lack of a God (excluding historical things done in God's Name that were infact done to please man) I will Denouce my God. (Probably not really....But It will bring me into a really long process of thinking.)


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As far as Mr. Toes and all of you talking about the 'missing link', and this sudden jump from monkey to man:

1. Science doesn't say we came from monkeys or apes, they say we came from creatures propbably very similar. No claim of "jump from one species to another" has been made that I am aware of, and if there was, I believe that most credible science would laugh at it.
I could agree with that as it agrees with Creation Science. In the bible (the book that Christians Go by) it clearly says that after the flood of Noah man kind lived shorter lives. The pre-flood human being could be considered a pre-adaptated form of humans.

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2. There has been provided over the years tons of evidence to support that our physical structures changed over the centuries, and that is due to the evolution of the specie.

3. There was no presupposition about evolution when Darwin visited the Gallapagos Islands. He noted very different species of animals and mammals and was very puzzled by what he found. He took extensive notes and drawings and studied and compared them in detail and came up with a conclusion that might suggest that species evolve. He was not at all certain of this at the time, but he published this conclusion (during a time when religion reigned supreme) for people to consider. It has since taken off as more and more scientists find evidence to further support the belief.
I discredit your whole argument because you called Science a Belief
Just kidding, LIke I said before. I believe that Darwin observed adaptation in species and I take that as fact because it can be proven.

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As I keep saying over and over, science uses verifiable and repeatable results as evidence to support a theory or conclusion, then they publish such for others to pick apart, verify, disprove, or whatever. Some survie, others don't, but hey, that's science.

Religion is unwilling to provide verifiable and repeatable results as evidence to support there being a maker. If you have such, please provide me with a link.
I disagree with you on that. LIke I'VE said over and Over agian, Scientists that are Christian Use the same exact science that non-believing ones do. They just use that information to Point to the fact that our world is TOO complex to have accidently happened.

If scientists in general were to actually realize it's not about sides but about Science then I'm sure both Believer and non-believer would learn from each other. It's too bad that most of both sides are Closed minded.

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As far as Mr. Toes arguing the freezing temperature of water, he's absolutely correct, but all of those variants can be measured, predicted, tested and repeated, so even in any given variable the results can still be predicted using scientific method.

I don't know what the religious fear of science is, but to say that documenting the results of repeated tests and holding them up for examination could be called "lies" is beyond me. You use science all the time when you build a wheeler. Scientifically tested materials and methods go in to every wheeler, every firearm, and nearly every product you buy. The clothes you wear have been improved by the use of scientific methods (breakthroughs in fabrics, synthetics, etc.). Science is a part of your everyday life, and without it you would still be trying to kill animals with your bare hands. I, however, can go through my day, day after day, without your god and live a great life. Moral, free, and happy.
Most Religous Institutions don't fear Science. The don't like closed minded scientists that HAVE to have proof to believe any thing and don't have the courage to have any kind of faith in anything that can't be proven.

I love Science. It proves to me, EVERDAY, that my God is out there, He Beautifully and wonderfully made me, and this world is here only because he breathed it in to Existance.

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As far as being accused of liking to "stir things up", you're saying what I don't feel. I read and listen and when I have a thought that disagrees with yours you accuse me of acting in a provocative way. Who are you to say what my motives are? I have been addressing you in a calm and reasonable manner, and you have to lob insults. Tsk-tsk. Sounds like someone needs to go back to debate class....
I never took Debate class (big surprise right? ) I hope that you dn't think I'm not calm when I type things. The problem is that people make False assumptions on the attitude of a post because of pryer face to face debates. I know you don't mean it to be Condesending, Or mean. Do you think I am? I'm not trying to be and most everyonce in a while remind people I am not.

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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
x2 I would LOVE to know that I will be reunited with my loved ones after death, but God just doesn't talk to me like he talks to you believers. If he did, I might be inclined to believe. maybe he just hates me and wants me to burn in eternal hellfire, well, you know what they say, heaven for climate, hell for company.
Part of God Talking is you have to listen. Honestly. I barely have enough time to listen for God's voice in my life. We're just too busy as a Culture.

Last edited by L4CX; April 7th, 2008 at 10:41 PM.
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