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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:04 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
If youwant me to consider that your god COULD have been the start of all this, then it is fair that you consider that your god is just an explanation by primitive people lacking a better explanation. Like it or not, either COULD be true. The difference between religion and science is that we experiement and test the theory to see if it even has any validity. We question it to see if it can stand up to it.
Wow, that's funny because (from a Christian Standpoint) That's what ID is. ID scientists do exactly what regular scientists do. They test thoeries, and make hypthesis. The only difference is that ID scientists can then take that science and use it to point to a creator.

It frustrates the crap out of me when people just assume that all Christians are sheep and we follow whatever the church tells us too. That couldn't be any more far from the truth. There are some that are sheep, then the rest of the Majority actually does the research for themselves. I've said it before, I'll say it again, Most Chrsitians don't use God to explain the world around them, but they use the world around them to point to God.

And don't even think for a minute that we don't question our faith. We do. Sheeple we are not.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:12 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by 87'YJ View Post
But if the Bible is not real or can be disproven, then well, anything could have happened!
the bible can be disproven.

The bible mentions 4-legged insects, that can be disproven. Insects have 6 legs. The bible mentions that bats are birds, bats are indeed mammals. Although, I guess if we believe that the bible is right, then any contradiction is wrong. So the number they used back then that meant six was "four"...and bats are in fact birds and scientists are wrong. does that sum it up?
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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
the bible can be disproven.

The bible mentions 4-legged insects, that can be disproven. Insects have 6 legs. The bible mentions that bats are birds, bats are indeed mammals. Although, I guess if we believe that the bible is right, then any contradiction is wrong. So the number they used back then that meant six was "four"...and bats are in fact birds and scientists are wrong. does that sum it up?
I doubt you'll do so, but cite verses, and translation please...

as for 4-legged insects I have no problem imagining some of the folks on this site as a child gleefully pulling legs off of various critters they caught outdoors...

if you are referring to passages in Leviticus, various translations don't even use the term "insect" - and it refernces "walking on fours" - not that they have four legs...

Last edited by RyeBread; April 4th, 2008 at 12:23 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:27 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
I doubt you'll do so, but cite verses, and transation please...

as for 4-legged insects I have no problem imagining some of the folks on this site as a child gleefully pulling legs off of various critters they caught outdoors...
Insects

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/insects.html

Lev. 11:20-23

Birds

Here's an apologist's explanation/cited verse on why bats are referred to as birds:

http://www.carm.org/diff/Lev_11_19.htm

but, damn, if this is the WORD OF GOD, why do we worry about what the people of that time knew and didn't know about animal classification. oh wait, maybe it was just a story written by the people who were around at that time.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:34 PM   #125
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I addressed the first link in an edit that took place whilst you were scrambling for links I guess.

as for the second, did you even read the text under your 2nd link? LOL.

as it so eloquently points out, you are referring to human created classifications that didn't exist at the time re: the bat vs bird, and one that is english now as well, compared to the ancient aramaic/greek/hebrew texts.

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Also, we must be aware that it is modern science that has a different classification system than ancient times. To the ancients, creatures such as a bat were considered birds since they categorized all flying animals as birds. If that is the category that they used, then they were correct. It is not an error. It is a difference of categorization procedures. The critic has imposed upon the ancient text a modern system of categorization and then said that the Bible is wrong.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:54 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
if you are referring to passages in Leviticus, various translations don't even use the term "insect" - and it refernces "walking on fours" - not that they have four legs...
various translations. which one is the "true" text. which one hasn't been "translated" by monks throughout the years? I mean you and I could both look at the same text and take away two very different interpretations. How can you trust something that has been interpreted a thousand different ways and also transcribed differently through the years? i know. i know. faith. Why not have faith in the Greek gods, or Mohammad, or whatever the hell the Scientologists believe...It's all written words written by man. You just have this funny idea that a supernatural being zapped the words into these people's minds. Do you ever question the credibility of this text?

I could write a holy text and tell you that I am a prophet for my religion. I could get all of my friends to go along with this and agree. They could write books about me, telling the miracles I perform. You would never witness them, but just have faith. I also can't show you any proof that I didn't just make it up. Would you believe it? why or why not?
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:12 PM   #127
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various translations. which one is the "true" text. which one hasn't been "translated" by monks throughout the years? I mean you and I could both look at the same text and take away two very different interpretations. How can you trust something that has been interpreted a thousand different ways and also transcribed differently through the years? i know. i know. faith. Why not have faith in the Greek gods, or Mohammad, or whatever the hell the Scientologists believe...It's all written words written by man. You just have this funny idea that a supernatural being zapped the words into these people's minds. Do you ever question the credibility of this text?

I could write a holy text and tell you that I am a prophet for my religion. I could get all of my friends to go along with this and agree. They could write books about me, telling the miracles I perform. You would never witness them, but just have faith. I also can't show you any proof that I didn't just make it up. Would you believe it? why or why not?

I expounded on a couple of earlier pages about yes obviously I wonder and question my faith. I have struggled for decades with what I believe. If I live for as long as I already have lived, then no doubt I will struggle for more decades.

My point in stating that it was "on four" was that there is much about the contextual wording from the era that we will never grasp.

It is common to refer to a toddler learning to walk, that they go on all fours... yet who would assert that they were a 4 legged human?

To some degree one must put faith in the various translation efforts of any document, as none of us have the time to become the experts ourselves and earn a living wage. The forward/preface of any major Bible translation typically includes as a reference/resouce the efforts made to translate the text. The NIV specifically indicates they did not rely upon earlier translations such as the KJV. Are you aware that there are in excess of some 25,000 partial manuscripts of the 4 gospels that date to within 100 years of the time period referenced?

Are you aware, that monks don't transcribe Jewish records? That the Old Testament of the Bible is pretty well cross checked against those tainted, conspiracy theoristical, Dan-Brown, magi-driven, Catholic Church Agendas?

Similarily ,you must put faith that the particle scientists did their math correctly, and their doctoral students didn't transpose a decimal place when they published their findings on the latest quark, or whatever.

a page back, I explained part of what captivates me and in part is responsible for putting me on the path I am on.

What spurred the explosive growth of the very early Christian movement? As people will continuously demonstrate, they will die for their beliefs, but how many will die for something they know is untrue, in order to propogate a false belief, when all they need do is renounce it? (I'm referring to the very early persectution of the very early Christians)

something happened to fuel the movement. I may never "know" what that thing was. I have faith however. And I am at peace trusting that faith.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:14 PM   #128
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I could write a holy text and tell you that I am a prophet for my religion. I could get all of my friends to go along with this and agree. They could write books about me, telling the miracles I perform. You would never witness them, but just have faith. I also can't show you any proof that I didn't just make it up. Would you believe it? why or why not?
do you really think you could get your friends to face slaughter, barbaric torture, persecution you can't imagine, and not renounce their (and your) statements based upon what they knew to be untrue?



if you believe that, please do not go purchasing any compounds anywhere...
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:16 PM   #129
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Agreed, so maybe if we substitute the word "god" with "a force we cannot otherwise explain", and the word "religion" with "a group of people sharing a belief in such explanations for such forces", THEN we refer to atheists as "those that reject such an explanation and choose their own (whatever it is)", we can then say that INDIVIDUAL atheists are very likely to have very different ideas of how things are or should be, and so their 'community' is more likely to have diffrences of opinion and, as a result, do harm using different logic each time, but by learning afterwards that they were wrong we are less likely to make the same mistake; whereas the "group of people sharing a belief in such explanations for such forces" will all agree on the fundamental 2000 year old logic for their actions and, because they feel righteous in their actions, carry them out as a community united in their righteousness, and possibly unite again and again under the same same auspices.

There are countless examples of such actions from the Spanish Inquisition to witchburning, just as there are under Mao and Stalin, but the difference is that under the theistic philosophy it was always for the same reasoning and the same god. Under the nontheistic actions they were always under very different actions triggered by very different needs. The political ideals that fueled uprisings, even those that did not culminate in genocide, were such that those in power were neglecting those in need, so those in need revolted. Somewhere along the way an influential leader came to the forefront, and in these cases were atheists. Some influential leaders affect genocide. Hitler considered himself to be a religious man... "Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.)"

It is not religion per se that perpetrates violence, but a certain mindset that seeks to use an ideology or a religious justification to control people's thinking and restrain the most fundamental freedoms. Atheism however was not the justification for Mao or Stalin, just the power base of the churches of the time that were among the justifications used for their uprising.

Where freedom of conscience or religious freedom or women's rights are being abused, supressed or denied, all of us must reject this as wrong. Sometimes this may mean calling on the carpet those who claim the same religious affiliation as you do.
The question I pose to you is this then... If someone does something "in the name of religion" that contradicts what that religion teaches, are they really a member of that religion? For example, an abortion clinic bomber that calls himself a Christian and does it in the name of God. The bible is very clear about loving your neighbor as yourself and "turning the other cheek" and its also very clear that murder is wrong. So this guy calls himself a Christian, but breaks 3 direct commandments in the Bible in his action.

So is he really a Christian? Can you blame the religion that teaches the opposite laws? Or is this in reality a problem of mans inherent evil and sinfullness? That man will do wrong... always.

And Hitler?!?! come one man, thats just rediculous. The man in no way followed what catholocism teaches, he was heavily into the occult and he murdered Jews (which the Bible directly condems).

Last edited by 87'YJ; April 4th, 2008 at 01:28 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:27 PM   #130
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the bible can be disproven.

The bible mentions 4-legged insects, that can be disproven. Insects have 6 legs. The bible mentions that bats are birds, bats are indeed mammals. Although, I guess if we believe that the bible is right, then any contradiction is wrong. So the number they used back then that meant six was "four"...and bats are in fact birds and scientists are wrong. does that sum it up?
I love that you don't attack the historical accuracy or the geneological accuracy or even the miraculous claims of the Bible... but you pick the smallest most insignificant detail to try and prove the Bible as untrue?!?! Thats because historically the Bible has yet to be unproven as well a geneologically!

And to offer a completely legitimate explanation (an expansion of what the apologist said), just because we use a certain clasification of animals and insects now, doesn't mean that it was the same then nor do we now that it will be same 2000 years from now. The book of Leviticus is one of the oldest books of the Bible and would have been written some 3000 years ago. Obviously their current clasification of mammals/birds/insects would be very different from ours, but not necessarily wrong. Animal classification is not firm founded science (with laws), etc, rather its a way of catagorizing animals. It has changed even in the last 50 years and probably will change again... so in reality this arguement holds no water and is very weak!
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:43 PM   #131
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I love that you don't attack the historical accuracy or the geneological accuracy or even the miraculous claims of the Bible... but you pick the smallest most insignificant detail to try and prove the Bible as untrue?!?! Thats because historically the Bible has yet to be unproven as well a geneologically!
i just pulled a couple out of my ass. I didn't do any thorough investigation. Just because it's not unproven, doesn't mean it's proven.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:47 PM   #132
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i just pulled a couple out of my ass. I didn't do any thorough investigation. Just because it's not unproven, doesn't mean it's proven.
like evolution?
or your ability to influence your friends to start your own religion? :tonka:
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:48 PM   #133
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Figured it out

A little girl asked her mother, 'How did the human race appear?' The
mother answered, 'God made Adam and Eve and they had children and so was
all mankind made.'

Two days later the girl asked her father the same question. The father
answered, 'Many years ago there were monkeys from which the human race
evolved.'

The confused girl returned to her mother and said, 'Mom how is it possible
that you told me the human race was created by God, and Dad said they
developed from monkeys?'

The mother answered, 'Well, dear, it is very simple. I told you about my
side of the family and your father told you about his.'
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:53 PM   #134
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like evolution?
or your ability to influence your friends to start your own religion? :tonka:
My religion IS REAL. My god is an Indian who turns into a wolf.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 01:54 PM   #135
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Figured it out

A little girl asked her mother, 'How did the human race appear?' The
mother answered, 'God made Adam and Eve and they had children and so was
all mankind made.'

Two days later the girl asked her father the same question. The father
answered, 'Many years ago there were monkeys from which the human race
evolved.'

The confused girl returned to her mother and said, 'Mom how is it possible
that you told me the human race was created by God, and Dad said they
developed from monkeys?'

The mother answered, 'Well, dear, it is very simple. I told you about my
side of the family and your father told you about his.'
haha, i can just imagine that about 15 years from now...
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Old April 4th, 2008, 02:19 PM   #136
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The following text will stay on point: "Religion is NOT harmless" if you read it through. The tie-in is at the end:

The thread I find consistently running through the theological arguments is that whenever something, anything, is brought into the light as being ridiculous the theologists will just jump to a different 'version' of the bible, or cite translation issues, or to language differences of the time, or say that "that's just one thing".

The common thread in science is that we frequently take what we're being told and hold it up to the light and test it for ourselves.

The example of an intern misplacing a decimal therefore we might be operating on faith is ludicrous, because no scientific thesis can have any credibility until it has survived peer review. Some of the 'peers' are scientists in direct competition with YOU, so they are hell bent to discredit you. IT MUST SURVIVE PEER REVIEW.

The bible, however, does not survive review by huge percentage of the general population, let alone the specialized and trained experts in science and the theological communities (Judeo Christians are only a small part of the theological community. There's Buddhists, and Muslims, and Jews, etc.).

You yourselves claim (even right here in this thread) that you question your belief all the time, but I would submit that you do not 'doubt' the word from which you derive your belief. That is where you are failing to perform due diligence and peer review. In order to truly question a scientific theory it helps to doubt it first, otherwise you are only trying to prove that it's true, which means you may emphasize that which supports it, and minimize that which disproves it. There's nothing scientific about that 'questinioning', that is purely reigious confirmation.

Adolph Hitler BELIEVED that he was Catholic. Adolph Hitler BELIEVED that he was modelling his society after Christian teachings. George W. Bush says he's a "deeply religious man", yet he is bombing the shit out of innocent civilians. I could go on and on with the "deeply religioius Christians" that BELIEVED that what they were doing was right, but this is proof to me that BELIEF isn't GOOD ENOUGH. PROOF, I submit to you, and examination by your peers, is the only real way to tell if what you are doing, believing or saying is truly good and right. Religion does not do that, therefore the religious will do great harm BELIEVING that they are following their god.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 02:24 PM   #137
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[QUOTE=L4CX;1037138]Wow, that's funny because (from a Christian Standpoint) That's what ID is. ID scientists do exactly what regular scientists do. They test thoeries, and make hypthesis. The only difference is that ID scientists can then take that science and use it to point to a creator. QUOTE]

Please provide some links that take empirically gathered data and logically explain such as proof of a god.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 02:28 PM   #138
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do you really think you could get your friends to face slaughter, barbaric torture, persecution you can't imagine, and not renounce their (and your) statements based upon what they knew to be untrue?



if you believe that, please do not go purchasing any compounds anywhere...
Well, the Mormon's follow what was said by Joseph Smith, Jr., and he claimed to have been talked to by god.......... they are willing to be persecuted, tortured and die for their beliefs......
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Old April 4th, 2008, 02:29 PM   #139
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Well, the Mormon's follow what was said by Joseph Smith, Jr., and he claimed to have been talked to by god.......... they are willing to be persecuted, tortured and die for their beliefs......
Not only that, but I hear there's a bunch of people that follow the teachings of some dude named jesus too......
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Old April 4th, 2008, 02:31 PM   #140
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Not only that, but I hear there's a bunch of people that follow the teachings of some dude named jesus too......
Then of course there's all those people that follow some guy named mohammed.... Well, I guess you get my point, but because you do you'll get all pissed off and say that those are 'different'....
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