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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:22 PM   #101
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i am asking anyone who thinks they can answer the question.
re-phrase the question. the term "precious" implies value.

people assign a value on/of things subjectively, objectively, and/or completely different from each other regardless of what is being evaluated.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:29 PM   #102
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re-phrase the question. the term "precious" implies value.

people assign a value on/of things subjectively, objectively, and/or completely different from each other regardless of what is being evaluated.
thanks for the English lesson fukc head. what makes a human life valuable?
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:44 PM   #103
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thanks for the English lesson fukc head. what makes a human life valuable?
what makes you think anyone here said or feels that is is?
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:54 PM   #104
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[QUOTE=RyeBread;1035183]what makes you think anyone here said or feels that is is?[/QUOTE


Exactly, and what do you define as value.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 02:58 PM   #105
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The title of the thread is: Religion is NOT harmless. And you imply in many posts that Christianity in specific is harmful. So yes, I do accuse you of contradiction and an inability to debate correctly.

So far, you have used circular reasoning and multiple contradictions to make your point. Thats why so many people jump all over your posts. If you made well thought out and logical arguements, then other than debating facts, there isn't much we could rip on you for.

the title is like a response to people who say to non-theists who talk about the dangers of religion. Some people like to say, oh, they aren't hurting anybody, they're harmless. This is not always true, and here is one particularly sickening case. Others being...Islamic suicide bombers, abortion clinic bombers, etc.

I guess, I do imply that being involved in religion can cause harm. Not that non-religious people can't be harmful. But, my argument, is that when you have to consult religious dogma to make a decision, the atheist/agnostic doesn't have to do that, and will likely make a better decision (in my opinion).

I don't mean to offend any theists (even the jesus freak thing, i mean it's a christian rock band album title) I just like to point this out and say look, the cause is religion, the people even say so themselves. religion has been harmful (looking back at history), religion is still harmful, (this case, and others like it) and probably still will be harmful in the future.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 03:00 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
the title is like a response to people who say to non-theists who talk about the dangers of religion. Some people like to say, oh, they aren't hurting anybody, they're harmless. This is not always true, and here is one particularly sickening case. Others being...Islamic suicide bombers, abortion clinic bombers, etc.

I guess, I do imply that being involved in religion can cause harm. Not that non-religious people can't be harmful. But, my argument, is that when you have to consult religious dogma to make a decision, the atheist/agnostic doesn't have to do that, and will likely make a better decision (in my opinion).

I don't mean to offend any theists (even the jesus freak thing, i mean it's a christian rock band album title) I just like to point this out and say look, the cause is religion, the people even say so themselves. religion has been harmful (looking back at history), religion is still harmful, (this case, and others like it) and probably still will be harmful in the future.


Mike, ..... Serious question, do you think Religion can be helpful in anyway?
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 06:21 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
the title is like a response to people who say to non-theists who talk about the dangers of religion. Some people like to say, oh, they aren't hurting anybody, they're harmless. This is not always true, and here is one particularly sickening case. Others being...Islamic suicide bombers, abortion clinic bombers, etc.

I guess, I do imply that being involved in religion can cause harm. Not that non-religious people can't be harmful. But, my argument, is that when you have to consult religious dogma to make a decision, the atheist/agnostic doesn't have to do that, and will likely make a better decision (in my opinion).

I don't mean to offend any theists (even the jesus freak thing, i mean it's a christian rock band album title) I just like to point this out and say look, the cause is religion, the people even say so themselves. religion has been harmful (looking back at history), religion is still harmful, (this case, and others like it) and probably still will be harmful in the future.
That was very well put. I think the problem alot of people have with the begining idea of this thread is that you make a very general statement about ALL religion. Most, if not all, of the negitive situations that are caused by religion are people going to extremes. The other reason woudl be getting away from God (in the case of Christians) and putting more faith in a religion then a God. And when you put faith in a human establishment it's bound to fail eventually. In the case of the Catholic church they decided to try and convert by force. Completely not biblical. Dissmiss as you will.....And I'm sure you will

For the most part religion is a good thing. It brings people together and gives them a purpose and hope. It also helps out countless numbers of people get out of hard times. I would guess that you don't hear about that kind of stuff because the news seems to focus on the Negitive.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 06:41 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
I guess, I do imply that being involved in religion can cause harm. Not that non-religious people can't be harmful. But, my argument, is that when you have to consult religious dogma to make a decision, the atheist/agnostic doesn't have to do that, and will likely make a better decision (in my opinion).

I don't mean to offend any theists (even the jesus freak thing, i mean it's a christian rock band album title) I just like to point this out and say look, the cause is religion, the people even say so themselves. religion has been harmful (looking back at history), religion is still harmful, (this case, and others like it) and probably still will be harmful in the future.
you give too much credit to the power of most religions over most people said to be practicing most religions. by your own previous threads attacking prominent religious folks that have fallen, it should be clear that theists aren't powerless to make a decision, or that it's even close to realistic that they stop to consult dogma in order to make said decision.

I will respectfully disagree with you as to the religion generally being the causal factor in "bad decisions", or "harmful decisions". The causal factor is a human condition. Again you minimize the influence, and bad decisions that non-theists make. From the genocides, to the fact that face it, people are denied medical treatment for all manner of reasons. Was the student that just committed massmurder+suicide at Northwestern an islamic radicalist? No. How about that korean kid at VaTech or whereever it was out east?

The Human condition/reality is a very, very wide spectrum of behavior. There are somewhat narrower points on said spectrum, and you've made it clear that some of those points you have a major problem with.

"This example as you stated" is again a fox-news story, citing an interview of police sources. You have inferred an opinion about the beliefs, and practices based on non-sworn, quoted interview text, from a yellowjournalistic source as to their specific theology. You then leap to the conclusion that they were perfectly aware of the full extent of the girl's condition.

I can only agree with our Royal Oak to Cleveland Transplant in that you are a poor debater, that uses circular logic, and poorly orchestrated flamebait. To that end, I'll offer up my own submission in a similar fashion.

zOMG those kids played violent video games!!1one they must be the root of all evil. ZOMG, violent video games cause 99% of all genocide, conflict and war over all of history.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 08:27 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
you give too much credit to the power of most religions over most people said to be practicing most religions. by your own previous threads attacking prominent religious folks that have fallen, it should be clear that theists aren't powerless to make a decision, or that it's even close to realistic that they stop to consult dogma in order to make said decision.

I will respectfully disagree with you as to the religion generally being the causal factor in "bad decisions", or "harmful decisions". The causal factor is a human condition. Again you minimize the influence, and bad decisions that non-theists make. From the genocides, to the fact that face it, people are denied medical treatment for all manner of reasons. Was the student that just committed massmurder+suicide at Northwestern an islamic radicalist? No. How about that korean kid at VaTech or whereever it was out east?

The Human condition/reality is a very, very wide spectrum of behavior. There are somewhat narrower points on said spectrum, and you've made it clear that some of those points you have a major problem with.

"This example as you stated" is again a fox-news story, citing an interview of police sources. You have inferred an opinion about the beliefs, and practices based on non-sworn, quoted interview text, from a yellowjournalistic source as to their specific theology. You then leap to the conclusion that they were perfectly aware of the full extent of the girl's condition.

I can only agree with our Royal Oak to Cleveland Transplant in that you are a poor debater, that uses circular logic, and poorly orchestrated flamebait. To that end, I'll offer up my own submission in a similar fashion.

zOMG those kids played violent video games!!1one they must be the root of all evil. ZOMG, violent video games cause 99% of all genocide, conflict and war over all of history.
Nobody will respond, they are all playing ZOMG. Besides you addressed something in a calm and controlled manner, that is ignored here to the point you may get called a name or told your retarded at best. Carry on.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 09:21 AM   #110
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Nobody will respond, they are all playing ZOMG. Besides you addressed something in a calm and controlled manner, that is ignored here to the point you may get called a name or told your retarded at best. Carry on.
You mean the way you guys used to do to me? :stan3:
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Old April 4th, 2008, 09:44 AM   #111
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There are tons of conflicting scientific theories on all subjects of study, but there is a common thread throughout all of them, and that is questioning and research. They pose a theorum (hypothesis) based upon whatever, then proceed to experiment and question, debate, and, in the case of evolution and adaptation, dig.... They pull up whatever is in the ground and carbon date it and use other evidence to estimate its approximate age, examine any other artifacts in the vicinity, and from that they can postulate as to its relationship to other things, its culture, etc.

Homo erectus findings included cultural evidence. In other words, they had a culture, and created things to make their life easier. As it succeeded their needs changed (see Maslows Hierarchy of Needs) and some of the things required of their bodies and culture died off and new adaptations were required/obsolete as applicable.

Mr. Toes, you have a small little toe. All humans now do. The further back in time we dig we discover that little toes were larger and larger. When we dig "pre-shoes" we find that little toes were quite large, we believe to be due to the need for them to provide the balance that we developed later from shoes. Now this is an assumption based on evidence. No one is saying it's FACT (or shouldn't be), but it is a logical assumtion no matter how you feel about it. You can probably come up with lots of other equally logical assumptions if you think about it. Science is more assumption based on facts than it is facts based on assumptions. Religion can't say that. Religion continues to preach the same creation theory without being willing to consider other experiments or theories. I'm not saying that creation or religion are WRONG, I'm just pointing out that there are alot of holes in the assertion, and "faith" always seems to be the ultimate fallback for the supporters.

Considering the thread title, "Religion is NOT harmless" I would submit to you that nontheistic war is waged using whatever logic is supported at the time. Remember, neither Mao or Stalin commited the genocides alon. They were supported by many thousands of people that agreed. The same can be said for religious genocide (and there have been many throughout history). The difference is that the logic supporting the the nontheistic genocides was found to be flawed and nobody in their right mind would consider that logic again. With religion, it's always the same, 2000 year old logic that continues without question or debate, so it is logical to assert that it could happen the exact same way all over again.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 09:45 AM   #112
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You mean the way you guys used to do to me? :stan3:
Stop it , I always answered you and the name calling was rare you evil Phantom Bastard Son of a Bitch Whore.

Coiuldn't stay away EH. Good I don't feel like the lone ranger anymore.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #113
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Why could not evolution come from God too ???

Last edited by dodger889; April 4th, 2008 at 10:18 AM. Reason: mis spelled
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:21 AM   #114
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Why could not evolution vome from God too ???
I never said it couldn't, but you didn't say I did, so.....

Sure, it COULD be the case, as it could equally NOT be the case. How's that for an answer?

Some people apply any answer they can think of to explain the unexplained, and sometimes they even scare the crap out of themselves. They hear a noise in the dark and start imagining all kinds of terrors.

If youwant me to consider that your god COULD have been the start of all this, then it is fair that you consider that your god is just an explanation by primitive people lacking a better explanation. Like it or not, either COULD be true. The difference between religion and science is that we experiement and test the theory to see if it even has any validity. We question it to see if it can stand up to it.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #115
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Mikesova....? Mikesova......?!?! You gonna' jump in here bro'?
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:45 AM   #116
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I don't mean to offend any theists (even the jesus freak thing, i mean it's a christian rock band album title)

No offense taken. DC Talk is the band too hahaha
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:51 AM   #117
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Why could not evolution come from God too ???
There are people that believe that and there are people that believe castrating themselves and riding the halebop comet is also true.

All kidding aside, there is a group of people that believe in theistic evolution. That is that God put the basic matter here and let it take its course. There are even some that believe this basic early "matter" was God making the big bang.

The reason most Christians in specific (and muslims and jews for that matter) don't believe that is that if God is real, then why would he lie in the Bible and say he created human adult men and women? The real issue becomes, is the Bible real and God's spoken word. If it is, then no... evolution didn't occure (and there is definitely some science that backs this up). But if the Bible is not real or can be disproven, then well, anything could have happened!

But, this isn't an evolution talk, its a "religion is NOT harmless" talk
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Old April 4th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #118
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But, this isn't an evolution talk, its a "religion is NOT harmless" talk
Agreed, so maybe if we substitute the word "god" with "a force we cannot otherwise explain", and the word "religion" with "a group of people sharing a belief in such explanations for such forces", THEN we refer to atheists as "those that reject such an explanation and choose their own (whatever it is)", we can then say that INDIVIDUAL atheists are very likely to have very different ideas of how things are or should be, and so their 'community' is more likely to have diffrences of opinion and, as a result, do harm using different logic each time, but by learning afterwards that they were wrong we are less likely to make the same mistake; whereas the "group of people sharing a belief in such explanations for such forces" will all agree on the fundamental 2000 year old logic for their actions and, because they feel righteous in their actions, carry them out as a community united in their righteousness, and possibly unite again and again under the same same auspices.

There are countless examples of such actions from the Spanish Inquisition to witchburning, just as there are under Mao and Stalin, but the difference is that under the theistic philosophy it was always for the same reasoning and the same god. Under the nontheistic actions they were always under very different actions triggered by very different needs. The political ideals that fueled uprisings, even those that did not culminate in genocide, were such that those in power were neglecting those in need, so those in need revolted. Somewhere along the way an influential leader came to the forefront, and in these cases were atheists. Some influential leaders affect genocide. Hitler considered himself to be a religious man... "Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.)"

It is not religion per se that perpetrates violence, but a certain mindset that seeks to use an ideology or a religious justification to control people's thinking and restrain the most fundamental freedoms. Atheism however was not the justification for Mao or Stalin, just the power base of the churches of the time that were among the justifications used for their uprising.

Where freedom of conscience or religious freedom or women's rights are being abused, supressed or denied, all of us must reject this as wrong. Sometimes this may mean calling on the carpet those who claim the same religious affiliation as you do.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 11:31 AM   #119
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x1,000,000,000,000

I heard about this story a couple weeks ago. I'm speechless. What they did was just insane. I'm glad they're not my parents and I hope they get put away somewhere.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 11:58 AM   #120
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Where freedom of conscience or religious freedom or women's rights are being abused, supressed or denied, all of us must reject this as wrong. Sometimes this may mean calling on the carpet those who claim the same religious affiliation as you do.


as for the past couple of lengthy posts in this thread that I missed.

since we delved a little off the original topic so many times in this thread, I may as well continue that trend.

I am a fan of science believe it or not. In spite of that, after decades of various levels of study, various levels of introspection I always have felt that I, and my fellow man is more than just a collection of cells, bio-electrical feedback, etc.

from some of the more scientific reading I have done, I also struggle with the "math" of just carte blanche accepting that everything is nothing more than randomly colliding matter and chance. (I wonder what that regression model would like like by the way...)

from that mind set I started down the path to where I am today. by no means an expert, and fully ok with accepting the fact that my belief(s) are faith based, that they will continue to be tested, and re-evaluated.

Do I struggle with this faith? Absolutely. There are very obvious parallels in many of the "creation myths" as non-theists prefer to call them in the various religions that I acknowledge I don't have an answer to.

However, from a sociological standpoint, the explosive growth of the unorganized, and persecuted early Christain movement is one of the historical events that is particularily captivating to me.

as the airplane flying zealots proved- many will die for their faithful beliefs. question though: how many will die for something they know to be untrue, in order to attempt to propogate a false truth?

the very folks that wrote the gospels, and/or walked with/in the early movement had nothing to gain from this world but pain, suffering, and humilation on levels we can't imagine here in today's USA.
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