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Old April 8th, 2008, 08:11 PM   #181
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LIke I'VE said over and Over again, Scientists that are Christian Use the same exact science that non-believing ones do. They just use that information to Point to the fact that our world is TOO complex to have accidently happened.
It just shows that we don't have the brain power to comprehend the complexity of the universe. There are things that are beyond our comprehension. Religion is the easy answer to these complex questions.
Science gets us one step closer to truely answering these complex questions. They won't be answered in our life time but science is evolving faster than religion wants it to. The exponential growth rate of science is way to fast for religion to keep its strangle hold on the masses.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 09:30 AM   #182
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It just shows that we don't have the brain power to comprehend the complexity of the universe. There are things that are beyond our comprehension. Religion is the easy answer to these complex questions.
Science gets us one step closer to truely answering these complex questions. They won't be answered in our life time but science is evolving faster than religion wants it to. The exponential growth rate of science is way to fast for religion to keep its strangle hold on the masses.
Relgion doesn't have to keep up because it uses that exact same science to prove the exsitance of thier creator. I've heard it said before that the more science grows to learn about our world the more it realizes that it had to be designed. I dislike it when people assume that Christianity is an old, out dated, way of thinking. The truth is that you believe in science and science alone, I believe in Science and Faith (in God). Every proveable science I take as Truth. You do as well. You BELIEVE in a Theory that can't be proven right or wrong when it comes to a beging of the universe. I BELIEVE in a Faith that explains how our universe began. In that aspect faith and science are the same. You have to believe something that can't actually be proven. So, Christianity is not any more outdated then science is because Christians can (and Do) use that exact same science to point to their God.

Christianity embraces factualy Science. It's not a war Between Science and Relgion. Science just fuels that faith in God more.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 04:10 PM   #183
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I disagree with you on that. LIke I'VE said over and Over agian, Scientists that are Christian Use the same exact science that non-believing ones do. They just use that information to Point to the fact that our world is TOO complex to have accidently happened.
It's a BELIEF, not a FACT. Just to clarify. Also, either word, or any appropriate word I can think of, implies motive. Your statement, verbatim, which I suspect you may rephrase after thinking about it, states implicitly that there was an alive, aware, cognizant, mindful, sensible, sentient being that designed and created all of "this" in six days.

Now let's talk a moment about what I mean by "this".... In Genesis it clearly states that God created the Heavan and the Earth. It says nothing about space, planets, galaxies, etc. Just the Heaven and the Earth. Next, it clearly states that the "Heaven" to which Moses referred (understanding that no written language existed during Moses' time, but was passed down verbally for about 1,000 years) was the SKY:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


Okay, so dry land is the Earth, and the sky is the Heaven. Okay, great. And it also clearly states that each light and dark period constitutes one "day, and that all of this was done in only six of them.....

Come on.... You REALLY believe that, or do you just go along with it?

There is no science that exists that can demonstrate that that is even remotely possible, so your believing scientists may be saying that this must all have been created because it couldn't have happened by accident, but they certainly can't use any credible scientific method to substantiate that all the living things he supposedly created can be created in six days. No way.

What interests me most is that if Moses was sent by God to deliver the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage, why then have no Egyptian records referring to the presence of Israelites in Egypt ever been found? There are detailed records of everything else. Also, why were there no Egyptian references to the biblical account of the fall of Egypt? None. No frogs, no army lost in the Red Sea. Nothing. Plenty of other records leading to it, but none that reflect what Moses said happened.

So basically, with regard to Geneis, you're following the teachings of only one man: Moses. Jesus didn't tell the story of Genesis. Moses did. Jesus didn't tell the story of the fall of Egypt. Moses did. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me. So basically you are putting stock in what one man supposedly said to his followers, and they passed it down verbally for about 1,000 years (until there was a written language that they could make use of because there were only Hieroglyphics during his time), and be confident that they didn't juice it up, change it, forget parts, etc.....? I''m sorry, but that rattles my confidence to no end.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 04:22 PM   #184
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Relgion doesn't have to keep up because it uses that exact same science to prove the exsitance of thier creator. I've heard it said before that the more science grows to learn about our world the more it realizes that it had to be designed. By other Christians I presume? Only a "believer" would say that. Such a statement would be a contradiction anyway, because if it's too complex to be comprehended, it's too complex to be designed.I dislike it when people assume that Christianity is an old, out dated, way of thinking. Ummm, it's "old" (a couple thousand years?), but I wouldn't call it outdated since you believe..... Science, on the other hand, was not even ALLOWED to be practiced until FAR later in history because the CHURCH wouldn't allow people to think for themselves. The truth is that you believe in science and science alone, I believe in Science and Faith (in God). Every proveable science I take as Truth. You do as well. You BELIEVE in a Theory that can't be proven right or wrong when it comes to a beging of the universe. Wrong... I have said over and over on several posts that I don't believe the big bang either. I believe that we don't know, and anyone that professes to have the answer need only prove it and I'll "believe".I BELIEVE in a Faith that explains how our universe began. In that aspect faith and science are the same. Wrong again. Science will throw out a belief and set out to experiement to prove it. If they can't, they reject it and move on to the next one. Religion never wavers even though there's no evidence. Only beliefs.You have to believe something that can't actually be proven. Huh? Who say's I have to?So, Christianity is not any more outdated then science is because Christians can (and Do) use that exact same science to point to their God. No, they don't. they use the science to say "See? It's HAS to have been created because that COULDN'T have happend just by chance!"... Well, why COULDN'T it?

Christianity embraces factualy Science. Since when? Show me where actual scientific method, embraced by Christianity, PROVED that this was all created by your god. It's not a war Between Science and Relgion. Correct. It's a debate. Science just fuels that faith in God more. Because you refuse to look at the millions of FACTS, verifiable, repeatable, provable facts, that can be shown to you any time you want to open your eyes.... Note, I said your "eyes" and not your heart?
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Old April 9th, 2008, 04:27 PM   #185
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.
By the way all, I have a great question that you can ask those that believe in the Big Bang that will make them look like a deer in the headlights....

If the universe was created from some small matter combining and exploding in to "space" and forever expanding, what "space" is it expanding in to? After all, it can't expand in to space that doesn't exist can it?

Think about it.....

And you think I believe in the Big bang..... Please.

Another one to think about. The egg came first. Know why, because all chickens come from eggs, but not all eggs come from chickens. Many things lay eggs. Therefore the first chicken probably came from the first egg, which was layed by something that was NOT a chicken AS WE NOW KNOW IT.























The Phantoms Evil Twin says that if you believe that, then you believe in evolution.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 04:59 PM   #186
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just for giggles. you state no science we are aware of could create it all in 6 days. hypothetically speaking could there be many things we are not aware of?

scientifically speaking, could a sentient being distort time space to perform the task in 6 days? - (borrowing the phrase from mr hawking among others)

philosophically speaking, use the analogy of a 2 dimensional entity not being aware of the 3rd dimension. things taking place in that dimension could be completely unknown to the other two dimensions, yet exert significant influence to say the least.

mathematically proven, there are some dozen or so dimensions at last count? how many can you see, feel, hear, or smell, or measure with the most advanced sensory instruments around?

pardon the rambling, discordant typing, I'm typing one handed on the laptop, whilst rocking my 2 month old nephew...
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Old April 9th, 2008, 07:17 PM   #187
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By the way all, I have a great question that you can ask those that believe in the Big Bang that will make them look like a deer in the headlights....

If the universe was created from some small matter combining and exploding in to "space" and forever expanding, what "space" is it expanding in to? After all, it can't expand in to space that doesn't exist can it?

Think about it.....

And you think I believe in the Big bang..... Please.

Another one to think about. The egg came first. Know why, because all chickens come from eggs, but not all eggs come from chickens. Many things lay eggs. Therefore the first chicken probably came from the first egg, which was layed by something that was NOT a chicken AS WE NOW KNOW IT.























The Phantoms Evil Twin says that if you believe that, then you believe in evolution.

I have to step in here for no other reason than to tell you from the scientific experiments that I have done over the last 30 years the chicken was first and it's a simple experiment anyone can do.

Go to Dennys order scambled eggs and fried chicken. See what comes first it's always the chicken.




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Old April 9th, 2008, 07:25 PM   #188
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do you smoke pot goodbuzz?
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Old April 9th, 2008, 07:40 PM   #189
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It's a BELIEF, not a FACT. Just to clarify. Also, either word, or any appropriate word I can think ......
Well, I don't want to change my statement at all. I believe that it all happened on Six days. It's does sound iimpossible, that's why it's so important for us to know that God can do anything. I can easily derive from those verses that...
Heavens = what you see when you look up. I see stars, I see Planets, I see the moon, I see the Milky way. That sounds like the universe that science has taught us about.
Earth = the ground we walk on. Science tells us that it's there, rock, dirt, lava, ETC.


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There is no science that exists that can demonstrate that that is even remotely possible, so your believing scientists may be saying that this must all have been created because it couldn't have happened by accident, but they certainly can't use any credible scientific method to substantiate that all the living things he supposedly created can be created in six days. No way.
You've helped me realized that Christians do not waiver on the fact that God can do anything. That would make it very easy to say that an automoble runs because God makes it, but most Christians would agree that it's because of the internal Combustion Engine and the inventions of mankind. What I'm saying is that if there is an unexplainable something, It can very easily be God to the believer. If it is explainable, it can very easilly be God as well. I think that's what drives non-believers crazy. I will gladly except your science as long as it's provable.

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What interests me most is that if Moses was sent by God to deliver the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage, why then have no Egyptian records referring to the presence of Israelites in Egypt ever been found? There are detailed records of everything else. Also, why were there no Egyptian references to the biblical account of the fall of Egypt? None. No frogs, no army lost in the Red Sea. Nothing. Plenty of other records leading to it, but none that reflect what Moses said happened.
I will ask you a question. Does our Government try and hide things from the historical record of our country? It's not un heard of that humans don't want people to hear of things that make them look bad. I would think that the Egyptian king would have the power. If I was him, I'd want everybody I know to forget about, not mention it. Sounds logical to me. There is a record BTW, it's called the bible. :tonka:

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So basically, with regard to Geneis, you're following the teachings of only one man: Moses. Jesus didn't tell the story of Genesis. Moses did. Jesus didn't tell the story of the fall of Egypt. Moses did. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me. So basically you are putting stock in what one man supposedly said to his followers, and they passed it down verbally for about 1,000 years (until there was a written language that they could make use of because there were only Hieroglyphics during his time), and be confident that they didn't juice it up, change it, forget parts, etc.....? I''m sorry, but that rattles my confidence to no end.
I'm sorry your not that Confident. I believe that if God led moses or whoever to write it down, it would be an accurate account. However, it does not effect the gospel of Jesus Christ. Humans are imperfect and he died to enable us to have a relationship with God. Nothing about what mosses has written or has not written could change that. No matter what Humans still need Jesus Christ.

As far as the passing down the stories, Same thing. One thing you also have to remember is that because of the fact that people couldn't write things down, the woudl have excellent memories. Memories that have to remeber ever single detail and be able to pass that on. I have no doubt that what is written happened. I understand why you wouldn't have Confidence in that, You don't have the Faith in God that I do. (that I know of) and there is no way to prove either way. I'm ok with that.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 08:41 PM   #190
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do you smoke pot goodbuzz?
Is that a question relevant to this discussion? Intended to be rhetorical? Or do you want to just hang out some time?
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Old April 9th, 2008, 08:43 PM   #191
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Is that a question relevant to this discussion? Intended to be rhetorical? Or do you want to just hang out some time?



DDDUUUUUUUUUUUUDE you get the crown and I'll score some wicked bud.















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Old April 9th, 2008, 09:38 PM   #192
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just for giggles. you state no science we are aware of could create it all in 6 days. hypothetically speaking could there be many things we are not aware of? Rhetorical question. Yes. Tit for tat, could it be equally possible that there are things we believe that are based on false information?

scientifically speaking, could a sentient being distort time space to perform the task in 6 days? - (borrowing the phrase from mr hawking among others) I don't believe that Stephen ever asserted that the space time continuum can be "distorted" by intention, but I can honestly tell you that I don't know. I don't believe that you do either. But regardless, that is not what is said in the bible, as the bible clearly states that the "days" were measured by one cycle of light and dark. I hope that you would not be so arrogant as to profess "how god did it", would you?.

philosophically speaking, use the analogy of a 2 dimensional entity not being aware of the 3rd dimension. things taking place in that dimension could be completely unknown to the other two dimensions, yet exert significant influence to say the least. Immaterial given that Moses claimed that god told him all this, right? I mean, genesis is the knowledge given to Moses by god, right? No one could have been "aware" because according to Moses no one was here when god was allegedly doing all this

mathematically proven, there are some dozen or so dimensions at last count? how many can you see, feel, hear, or smell, or measure with the most advanced sensory instruments around? I fail to see the relevance to the days being measured by a single cycle of light and dark, as clearly stated in your bible.... I hope that you aren't going to jump back and forth between "yes, you have to take it literally" to "no, it's interpretation" to suit the argument like alot of other "believers" do. So far I've been very impressed with your capacity to reason and assert such, but I would not be able to recognize that without having the ability to recognize when you are redirecting. Nonetheless, none of my questions are being answered so far, just speculated on. The difference with alot of atheists (actually, I am more of a humanist) is that we aren't embarrassed to say we don't know, and may never know, and be able to embrace this mortal coil enough to say that if this is "it", we're cool with it. We (read: I) may argue with conviction, and even be perceived as condescending to those that interpret us as such, but we are the first to embrace new thinking and ideas if someone can provide us with some real evidence, if they can stand up to questioning. Notice that I don't get offended when someone questions my beliefs? I don't even get upset when people say I will burn in hell. This is why religion IS harmful (remember the name of this thread?)

pardon the rambling, discordant typing, I'm typing one handed on the laptop, whilst rocking my 2 month old nephew...
Cool... I'm on my laptop now while my hot sexy wife lays next to me watching the tube.












The Phantoms Evil Twin never underestimates the Power of the Question.

The best way to find the holes in someones story is to believe it and try to prove it right......
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Old April 10th, 2008, 07:38 AM   #193
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of course, I have, and do readily admit that it's highly likely that a number of things we believe, or "know" are postulated based on false information. I wasn't aware that such a thing was in question. I posed the question in the way I did because the authority you cite (science) stated that there was nothing in science that would allow for the creation story/myth as stated literally in Genesis. I'm glad to note that we agree, that science doesn't claim to know all. Perhaps even that there are forces interacting in ways that science can't today even comprehend. :)

how long would a cycle of light and dark last, during the actual creation of said things that create light, or its absence?

I also don't believe that hawking said it could be distorted by will, but if there is an almighty force/being that can exert the necessary force to distort the space-time crap that I only ½ want to understand anyway, then it could in theory also be done by?
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Old April 10th, 2008, 08:59 AM   #194
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of course, I have, and do readily admit that it's highly likely that a number of things we believe, or "know" are postulated based on false information. So we can include the bible and Christianity?I wasn't aware that such a thing was in question. I posed the question in the way I did because the authority But I don't consider it an "authority", I consider it a methodology. That's what I've been trying to explain all along.you cite (science) stated that there was nothing in science that would allow for the creation story/myth as stated literally in Genesis. I'm glad to note that we agree, that science doesn't claim to know all. I've been saying that all along, but I guess you wanted to be the one to say it before you agreed. No matter, as long as we're progressing here. Perhaps even that there are forces interacting in ways that science can't today even comprehend. :)See above.

how long would a cycle of light and dark last, during the actual creation of said things that create light, or its absence? See Genesis. Moses explained it.

I also don't believe that hawking said it could be distorted by will, but if there is an almighty force/being that can exert the necessary force to distort the space-time crap that I only want to understand anyway, then it could in theory also be done by? I already said I don't know the answer to that, and was correct in presuming that you don't either, so I don't know where you intend to take that line of thinking next, but go ahead. I'm listening.
Back to the subject of the thread. Madness is sometimes described as the process of doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Science avoids such madness. Religion subscribes without being willing to admit it. Every time I get in to these debates people gang up on me, then one by one start dropping out out of frustration because their old arguments are so easy to counter and I leave them with nothing definite to say.

Mr. Toes brought up how ridiculous it is that, in his belief, that science makes some unexplainable leap from monkey to man, yet I am criticized for not having the courage to make a "leap of faith". The danger in religion (pursuant to the subject of this thread) is that it condones massive double standards and hypocrisy. Like the examples above, Mr. Toes wants to take his guns and march through Washington and clean house. Is that how Jesus would have solved things? Oh, but wait, he would be forgiven because he did it in righteous indignation. Well, that's what the Mujahadeem did in Afghanistan against the Russians, and we called that okay, but now that the same people we trained are doing the exact same thing to us we call them religious fanatics. Please.

That is the danger of religion. Too easy to dance around being pinned to a principle, the word, or anything. Wrong version of the bible, different translation, should be taken literally, should be open to interpretation, "but we're forgiven"....
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Old April 10th, 2008, 11:16 AM   #195
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[COLOR="Navy"]Mr. Toes wants to take his guns and march through Washington and clean house. Is that how Jesus would have solved things? Oh, but wait, he would be forgiven because he did it in righteous indignation. Well, that's what the Mujahadeem did in Afghanistan against the Russians, and we called that okay, but now that the same people we trained are doing the exact same thing to us we call them religious fanatics. [/COLOR]



It's good to see you are starting to understand thing's.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 12:30 PM   #196
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of course, I have, and do readily admit that it's highly likely that a number of things we believe, or "know" are postulated based on false information. So we can include the bible and Christianity? We can certainly agree to disagree. :) I wasn't aware that such a thing was in question. I posed the question in the way I did because the authority But I don't consider it an "authority", I consider it a methodology. That's what I've been trying to explain all along. I submit, that your insistence on relying upon it, is as close to citing it authority as one could get. you cite (science) stated that there was nothing in science that would allow for the creation story/myth as stated literally in Genesis. I'm glad to note that we agree, that science doesn't claim to know all. I've been saying that all along, but I guess you wanted to be the one to say it before you agreed. No matter, as long as we're progressing here. your rejection of Genesis above, is seemingly hinged upon the fact that nothing in science can corroborate it, which is what I was trying to point out, yet you readily admit that science doesn't have answers for everything. Perhaps even that there are forces interacting in ways that science can't today even comprehend. :)See above.

how long would a cycle of light and dark last, during the actual creation of said things that create light, or its absence? See Genesis. Moses explained it. Moses didn't have an atomic clock, stop watch, or anything else to accurately measure the time that passed. This was a tangental point anyway, as I was bringing up the point that there is scientific theory currently that submits the idea that time, or rather space-time can be distorted. What then is a "day" vs. a "night", or even an hour or minute. We know that the orbits of planets, and sub-planets are not exactly consistent - indeed in recorded history to now, the Moon's orbit has visually extended further out into our solar system. I concede that there are those that hinge a literal truth to every word in the bible, meaning exactly what is written in today's context. I'll confess that I haven't made up my mind on that, as I am most certainly not what one could even consider a biblical scholar/expert, never mind an ancient hebrew/greek scholar (langauge or cultural). Conceptually however, I guess I don't have a problem admitting to the fact that an allpowerful God can most certainly make things happen in the fashion laid out in Genesis if he/she wanted to.

I also don't believe that hawking said it could be distorted by will, but if there is an almighty force/being that can exert the necessary force to distort the space-time crap that I only ½ want to understand anyway, then it could in theory also be done by? I already said I don't know the answer to that, and was correct in presuming that you don't either, so I don't know where you intend to take that line of thinking next, but go ahead. I'm listening. point was I guess, (and yes, this is more hypothetical, philosophical, and admitedly a weak point) that if space-time can be distorted, the literal meaning or even concept of time is pretty much a moot one eh?

as for picking on/debating with you. Most everyone in the thread has been here for weeks, and we all know that mike prefers to paste in an inflammatory news item and lay out an oversimplified singular-contextual-based blanket statement. I for the most part am really only replying to comments you have directed at me, or that my very distracted mind-set feels the need to chime in on.

more than anything, I've got spare moments scattered throughout the day as I babysit various database queries, DTS packages, and the like.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 04:03 PM   #197
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of course, I have, and do readily admit that it's highly likely that a number of things we believe, or "know" are postulated based on false information. So we can include the bible and Christianity? We can certainly agree to disagree. :) Disagree on what? We just finished agreeing didn't we?I wasn't aware that such a thing was in question. I posed the question in the way I did because the authority But I don't consider it an "authority", I consider it a methodology. That's what I've been trying to explain all along. I submit, that your insistence on relying upon it, is as close to citing it authority as one could get. I rely on the methodology of question, experimentation, tracking results, and holding them out for inspection. The process is not the authority, nor is the inquisitor. The results are only of value/importance as long as they stand up to questioning. If you want to call that "authority", fine.you cite (science) stated that there was nothing in science that would allow for the creation story/myth as stated literally in Genesis. I'm glad to note that we agree, that science doesn't claim to know all. I've been saying that all along, but I guess you wanted to be the one to say it before you agreed. No matter, as long as we're progressing here. your rejection of Genesis above, is seemingly hinged upon the fact that nothing in science can corroborate it, which is what I was trying to point out, yet you readily admit that science doesn't have answers for everything. Yes. I am again readily admitting that. And following up with the same statement I keep making, that Christians say they DO have the answers, and that they are in the bible. That's the reason RELIGION IS NOT HARMLESS (remember the name of the thread?) Perhaps even that there are forces interacting in ways that science can't today even comprehend. :)See above.

how long would a cycle of light and dark last, during the actual creation of said things that create light, or its absence? See Genesis. Moses explained it. Moses didn't have an atomic clock, stop watch, or anything else to accurately measure the time that passed. This was a tangental point anyway It is an irrelevant point because Moses wasn't there when it happened. The "knowledge" was allegedly given to him by god, and god clearly stated the duration., as I was bringing up the point that there is scientific theory currently that submits the idea that time, or rather space-time can be distorted. What then is a "day" vs. a "night", or even an hour or minute. We know that the orbits of planets, and sub-planets are not exactly consistent - indeed in recorded history to now, the Moon's orbit has visually extended further out into our solar system. I concede that there are those that hinge a literal truth to every word in the bible, meaning exactly what is written in today's context. I'll confess that I haven't made up my mind on that, as I am most certainly not what one could even consider a biblical scholar/expert, never mind an ancient hebrew/greek scholar (langauge or cultural). Conceptually however, I guess I don't have a problem admitting to the fact (read: "stating a belief") It is not a fact that an allpowerful God can most certainly make things happen in the fashion laid out in Genesis if he/she wanted to.

[I]I also don't believe that hawking said it could be distorted by will, but if there is an almighty force/being that can exert the necessary force to distort the space-time crap that I only ½ want to understand anyway, then it could in theory also be done by? I already said I don't know the answer to that, and was correct in presuming that you don't either, so I don't know where you intend to take that line of thinking next, but go ahead. I'm listening. point was I guess, (and yes, this is more hypothetical, philosophical, and admitedly a weak point) that if space-time can be distorted, the literal meaning or even concept of time is pretty much a moot one eh?

as for picking on/debating with you Awwww, I don't feel like you're picking on me. I'm having fun! :) Most everyone in the thread has been here for weeks, and we all know that mike prefers to paste in an inflammatory news item and lay out an oversimplified singular-contextual-based blanket statement. I for the most part am really only replying to comments you have directed at me, or that my very distracted mind-set feels the need to chime in on.

more than anything, I've got spare moments scattered throughout the day as I babysit various database queries, DTS packages, and the like. Yeah, I do this from my office. Well, at least I accomplish what I need to.
.

See above in green.

To me, the ultimate danger of religion stems from exactly what is happening here. That the believers truly do believe that they have the answers, yet when pressed.... Hard..... They struggle at best because it truly comes down to faith.

I don't criticize your resolve in showing your faith to that which you are loyal, but I do however criticize/question religious peoples unwillingness to concede that alot of it sounds pretty far-fetched, and may not be entirely how we might describe things had we, with our modern wisdom, been there. There could be just the remotest chance of that, just as there could be the remotest chance that it's all true. I admit the latter and prefer the former. Religion insists on the latter and denies the former. There is no room for anyone to think or reason.

Review my other debates/threads on this subject around the site and you'll find that I keep using the words theory, conclusion, presumption, assumption, hypothesis, may, might, could. The believers use words like is, isn't, fact, truth, must, shall, never, always..... Well, I think someone with your intelligence gets where I'm going with this.

Ultimately, religion is not harmless if we talk about the latest craze, Radical Muslims, or what ever you guys want to call them. That's a religion as much as Christianity is, yet a lot of you guys would say that they are harmful.

The fact is that every different sect of a belief system, whether its Hassidic Jews compared to orthodox Jews, Protestants compared to Lutherans, are all "religion" so to say the your particular one isn't a religion (like several here have said, because they follow Jesus, not religion) is as much a religion as any other:

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Scientific method does not fall in to any of the above, as it is a method of study, so there is no point/counterpoint to be made, yet believers see it that way. BTW, none of you have answered my challenge to present some scientificly obtained results that prove that your god exists, created this world, etc. Just faith based speculation. That's why religion is not harmless. Because you say that you are right, and that's it, and the more unsubstantiable anyone makes what you believe in begin to appear, the more you will cling to such.

The counsel for science rests. We look forward to the closing arguments from the blessed. Thanks for your attention.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 04:26 PM   #198
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At the risk of being stoned I have a question.

Can I presume that we are talking about Darwins therory of evolution?
Also can I presume that his scientific education and reserch are what we can use as a foundation for credibility of his therory.
And that scientist have continued reserch based on that foundation.
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Old April 10th, 2008, 05:45 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
.

See above in green.
*snip*

To me, the ultimate danger of religion stems from exactly what is happening here. That the believers truly do believe that they have the answers, yet when pressed.... Hard..... They struggle at best because it truly comes down to faith. *snip*
and yes, at best (and as many of you pointed out, at worst) it boils down to faith. aint it wonderful that we can practice our faith in this country?

that may be the first time anyone here has correlated the term intelligence with me. (I won't let it go to my head)

I also want the record to show that I stated several pages ago, that it is my firm belief that people are dangerous, whether manipulated/incensed by their religious beliefs, cultural beliefs, greed, powerlust, or through the execution of their biases, prejudices and bigotry.

pick your religion, your ideology, your ism's and chances are that they can all be correlated, or cited as causal factors in some form of "causing harm".
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Old April 11th, 2008, 09:31 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
and yes, at best (and as many of you pointed out, at worst) it boils down to faith. aint it wonderful that we can practice our faith in this country?

that may be the first time anyone here has correlated the term intelligence with me. (I won't let it go to my head)

I also want the record to show that I stated several pages ago, that it is my firm belief that people are dangerous, whether manipulated/incensed by their religious beliefs, cultural beliefs, greed, powerlust, or through the execution of their biases, prejudices and bigotry.

pick your religion, your ideology, your ism's and chances are that they can all be correlated, or cited as causal factors in some form of "causing harm".
I agree.
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