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Old March 30th, 2008, 09:33 AM   #21
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It will just add incremental demand to the system. That can be planned for. It is sudden changes in load that cause huge problems. Things like halftime of the Super Bowl cause some indigestion at utilities. Almost instantly lights go on in the kitchen, the microwaves fire up, the fridge door gets opened, the toilets all start flushing. That causes the seweage systems a little issue as well. Small tidal wave of incoming waste. Things like that require extra units to be on-line in reserve to call up rapidly to keep that delicate balance between supply and demand. People seem to like their power at 60hz and close to 110v (or 220/440) for some reason. :tonka:

I'm curious how much draw one of those plug-in cars will have. It has to be designed to work with home electrical wiring, so I can't imagine it would compare to an A/C compressor or anything.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 09:58 AM   #22
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What is opinionated? I'm just stating the reality of what can happen if all of a sudden there is a huge decrease in load on the system. That is what caused the blackout.

I think your right. My personal opinion is that global warming is a combination of both man and nature. There is evidence that there has been a spike in earth temperatures starting in the 1800s due to the industrial revolution. The amount of pollution from the last 100 years has fueled the process of global warming but I don't feel that it has been enough to bring the world to an end. Any one large volcano eruption spews out more carbon dioxide and sulphure than all of the industrial processes in the world combined for the last 100 years.

Another item not talked about much is the fact that Earth's orbit around the Sun is far from circular or even a true elips. The Earth is pulled out of its "perfect" orbit around the Sun by other celestial bodies, other Galaxies, and changes in the Suns gravitational pull due to Sun spots or other surface activity. The Earth also has a series of complicated wobbles along its axis that occure at 10k year cycles. The Sun also goes through a Series of cycles where its gravitational pull and heat output are effected.

Yet another item in this equation is China. Since China is going through its own industrial revolution it operating pretty much unregulated (pollution wise) at this point. It will be a number of years before China realizes that it is crapping in its own bed before it starts to regulate itself. The shear size of China's poplulation and it's manufacturing resources dictate that it will be a formidable contributor to Earth's pollution problem for years to come.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #23
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Yet another item in this equation is China. Since China is going through its own industrial revolution it operating pretty much unregulated (pollution wise) at this point. It will be a number of years before China realizes that it is crapping in its own bed before it starts to regulate itself. The shear size of China's poplulation and it's manufacturing resources dictate that it will be a formidable contributor to Earth's pollution problem for years to come.
Actually, China is very much aware of their emissions problems. I was there last summer and got to meet with execs from several large companies. The problem they are facing is that they are trying to keep 1.3 billion people fed. They are building power plants at a record pace just to keep up with their growth. One of execs at Siemens that they are trying to improve their emissions, but for now they are building bare bones power plants just to keep the lights on. They have plans to gradually replace them with more efficient units that conserve fuel and reduce emissions. They are very much a victim of their own growth, much like we were in the late 1800's, and much like India will be in the next 20 years. They are just making the choice between supporting their people or saving the planet. They are getting better, but they have a long way to go.

What amazed me was that the week after we left Beijing, they were planning to shut down power plants west of the city for 7-10 days to evalute the impact on the air quality in the city in preparation for the Olympics. They estimated that within 7 days, the air would be clear and safe for Olympic athletes to compete. Too bad for the millions of people that would have their lights turned out.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 10:26 AM   #24
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Actually, China is very much aware of their emissions problems. I was there last summer and got to meet with execs from several large companies. The problem they are facing is that they are trying to keep 1.3 billion people fed. They are building power plants at a record pace just to keep up with their growth. One of execs at Siemens that they are trying to improve their emissions, but for now they are building bare bones power plants just to keep the lights on. They have plans to gradually replace them with more efficient units that conserve fuel and reduce emissions. They are very much a victim of their own growth, much like we were in the late 1800's, and much like India will be in the next 20 years. They are just making the choice between supporting their people or saving the planet. They are getting better, but they have a long way to go.

What amazed me was that the week after we left Beijing, they were planning to shut down power plants west of the city for 7-10 days to evalute the impact on the air quality in the city in preparation for the Olympics. They estimated that within 7 days, the air would be clear and safe for Olympic athletes to compete. Too bad for the millions of people that would have their lights turned out.
True but the fact remains that they are on a steep learning curve and will be dumping pollutants for years to come. Also, many manufacturing companies are operating on the fringes of the law because they can get away with it. It's just the nature of the beast.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 12:36 PM   #25
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What is opinionated? I'm just stating the reality of what can happen if all of a sudden there is a huge decrease in load on the system. That is what caused the blackout.
Turning your lights off at sounds like a great idea. I looked at that as an opinion that could be debated. Anyways that was cool, much better than name calling, and I learned something. Thanks

I almost forgot, Aren't the westinghouse units still made in the US??
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Old March 30th, 2008, 12:53 PM   #26
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Global warming is crap. I agree with being green to a certain extent, as long as it economically and financially makes sense.

For example, recycling things just makes sense. The waste created from throwing everything out obviously isn't good, and re-using it all can be cheaper and beneficial.

Now, going out and dropping $15,000 on a solar energy kit for my home doesn't make much sense, if it's going to take several years to make that money back. It's just not worth it to me at this point for that type of money.

The majority of people and businesses are not going to go way out of their way to be "green." But, if there's an economic gain that can be made by doing so, people and businesses will do it.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 12:56 PM   #27
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There are no large turbines made in the US at this point that I know of. There are no facilities left that are big enough to handle the task. France and China are the only places left that can produce them as far as I know. Even our transformers would have to be built overseas and shipped here. There is a 2-3 year lead time just for step-up transformers for the plants to step up voltages to 138kv or higher. If we blow our step-up transformer on our 165MW plant, it will be off-line 2-3 years unless we can find a suitable used replacement. It is a $1.5-2M part, but it would cost us over $100-150M in revenue for those 2-3 years if we lose it. Common sense would tell us we should have a spare already built and on-site. But, we can't get the budget police to allow us to spend the money. Go figure... You have to love municipal utility mindsets sometimes.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 01:06 PM   #28
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Global warming is crap. I agree with being green to a certain extent, as long as it economically and financially makes sense.

For example, recycling things just makes sense. The waste created from throwing everything out obviously isn't good, and re-using it all can be cheaper and beneficial.

Now, going out and dropping $15,000 on a solar energy kit for my home doesn't make much sense, if it's going to take several years to make that money back. It's just not worth it to me at this point for that type of money.

The majority of people and businesses are not going to go way out of their way to be "green." But, if there's an economic gain that can be made by doing so, people and businesses will do it.
Please tell your elected officials that. The big thing now is the renewable portfolio standard that is being worked thru the state legislature currently. It would require X% of the state's electricity to come from renewable sources by a set date. The problem is that hydro powered plants are impossible to get permitted now due to the greenies not wanting dams on the rivers. Michigan also doesn't have the sustained wind capacity to make wind power generators economic or reliable. The sun doesn't shine here often enough, or with the needed intensity to make solar economic on a commercial basis. However, these standards are being pushed by our elected folks to pander to the environmental lobby. It all sounds good to the people that accept this global warming ploy. Unfortunately, the economics just do not work. These solar and wind generators are not going to displace the need for fossil fuel fired power plants. For those cloudy and calm days where neither solar or wind generation is producing anything, you still have to have coal or natural gas fired power plants available to produce the needed electricity. So, you pay for the renewable resource, then you pay for the back-up generation. So, voila' you get to pay for the same amount of electricity TWICE. How is that supposed to help Michigan's economy? It doesn't. But, it makes your legislator look good and will help get the elected again. Meanwhile, major employers that would otherwise get stuck footing this bill for huge energy useage will just close shop and move to states that have more affordable energy. It is unfortunate that nobody seems to be analyzing the numbers on this stuff. But, the mainstream media accepts it and makes this stuff popular.

How are politicians dealing with this? Instead of being financially responsible and making sure that the state has affordable power, they are legislating renewable power to be cheaper than fossil fuel generated power. How? By passing legislation that will add huge carbon taxes to coal so that the cost for coal fired electricity explodes and becomes more expensive than the renewable stuff. Nothing that is going on is fiscally responsible or scietifically sound. It is just typical posturing by our government that is then sugar coated by our mass media. I guess nobody bothers to analyze the money behind this stuff.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 05:09 PM   #29
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I think there's enough scientific evidence to prove that our climates have been changing and that overall the planet have been getting warmer over the past several decades. Whether human activities have significantly contributed to this or not is a whole other question, and I don't think we know enough about our planetary environment to give a definite yes or no. But...

I think we should be conscious of what effect our lifestyles have on the environment. This "use it once and throw it away" mentality many people in this country seem to have will led to nothing but trouble. Eventually, if we continue this way we'll end up consuming all of our resources and have nothing but big piles of trash to show for it. If we continue to burn fossil fuels for a majority of our energy needs eventually we will burn them all up and have nothing but polluted air to show for it. It's stupid to think that we can continue to spew CO2 into the air without thinking that at some point it will have some effect on our environment or ever our health.

Many wild animals will continue to reproduce and expand their populations until they consume all their resources. If they exceed their resources then the population will crash. Will we, a supposedly "intelligent species", be smart enough to avoid that fate? The dinosaurs went extinct because they were not smart enough to recognize that their world was changing and change with it. Will we be any smarter? But...

We also have to be smart about doing this. It's our affluence as a nation that affords us the ability to give a shit about the environment. If we were worried about where our next meal was going to come from or where we were going to sleep tonight we wouldn't be concerned about the environment. Most of us would eat the last spotted owl before we starved to death. So we need to find a way to become more "green" without destroying our economy, because in the long that would be even worse for the environment. Anyone thats ever traveled to a third world country will tell you how much of a dirty shit hole most of them are, because their to busy trying to survive to worry about the environment.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:04 PM   #30
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Drew Carry said it best: Screw the envronment, I'm cold now.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:16 AM   #31
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Now, going out and dropping $15,000 on a solar energy kit for my home doesn't make much sense, if it's going to take several years to make that money back. It's just not worth it to me at this point for that type of money.

The majority of people and businesses are not going to go way out of their way to be "green." But, if there's an economic gain that can be made by doing so, people and businesses will do it.
Some of us want to do it not for the money, but to get off the grid and try to do SOMETHING to start lowering our dependence on the status quo.

If some of us do it, more might. If they do the cost will go down and eventually it will be feasible for everyone.

By the way all, you don't need much sun intensity at all. That's old solar technology. All kinds of new tech is out there that requires very little and will work very well in cold, cloudy environments.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 11:58 AM   #32
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I like the idea of global warming, I'm so cool it dosen't matter. LOL



The preceding was intended as humor no insulting respones are necessary.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:19 PM   #33
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I'm interested to see what will happen if plug-in hybryds go large scale.
The perfect marriage...

Electric cars and Coal Generating Plants

Plug 'em in at night when the demand is low...but most "greenie's" don't seem to get that the power has to come from somewhere! The joke here at work is the it comes from magic!
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Old April 4th, 2008, 12:25 PM   #34
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even if you turn your lights out at night the electric companies are not going to produce any less electricity and that would be just wasted power. They dont take out a piece of coal or make a turbine spin slower whenever one of your lights go out.

Greater heat = greater evaporation = more clouds = blocking the suns rays causing the world to cool down.

And wasnt it only 20 years ago when there was the big freeze over scare???
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Old April 4th, 2008, 02:40 PM   #35
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The perfect marriage...

Electric cars and Coal Generating Plants

Plug 'em in at night when the demand is low...but most "greenie's" don't seem to get that the power has to come from somewhere! The joke here at work is the it comes from magic!
Funnier still, "God made it"... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!:son icjay:
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Old April 4th, 2008, 03:34 PM   #36
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Funnier still, "God made it"... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!:son icjay:
Don't laugh you might be right, have you ever seen anybody fueling up the Popemobile, you know that one with the big glass thing the Pope rides around in.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 04:50 PM   #37
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even if you turn your lights out at night the electric companies are not going to produce any less electricity and that would be just wasted power. They dont take out a piece of coal or make a turbine spin slower whenever one of your lights go out.
You really shouldn't comment on things you don't understand. Any time a light goes on or off, the generating stations and transmission grid react to it. No, it isn't a measurable effect when you flip a 60 watt light on or off, but there is an effect and a corresponding reaction by the local utility. Yes, utilities do feed more or less coal or turn equipment on or off as load increases or decreases thru the day.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #38
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You really shouldn't comment on things you don't understand. Any time a light goes on or off, the generating stations and transmission grid react to it. No, it isn't a measurable effect when you flip a 60 watt light on or off, but there is an effect and a corresponding reaction by the local utility. Yes, utilities do feed more or less coal or turn equipment on or off as load increases or decreases thru the day.
What do they do with all the wood product that I sell them.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 06:56 PM   #39
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The perfect marriage...

Electric cars and Coal Generating Plants

Plug 'em in at night when the demand is low...but most "greenie's" don't seem to get that the power has to come from somewhere! The joke here at work is the it comes from magic!

I've been telling my "Enviro" friends that for years. They just give me that blank look like a dog that just farted and it can't figure out where the noise came from.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 07:16 PM   #40
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What do they do with all the wood product that I sell them.
What wood products to who?
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