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Old March 25th, 2008, 11:58 AM   #101
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when i said employed, i meant contracted, excuse me. The people who are contracted by the school would also be working for a company who would have some type of standards they enforce. The school would probably make an arrangement. In most companies are you allowed to wear whatever you want because of a holiday? no...so there can be separation in the private sector also based on company policies.

this whole argument though, comes down to the fact that you want your government to promote Christianity. ok, but what about judaism, islam, hinduism, paganism, etc. isn't it just easier to have them SEPERATE? worship in your church, promote your religion on your own time.
I'm fairly certain I never endorsed the idea of my government promoting Christianity, or any other form of religion. I also wasn't speaking towards "anything I want to wear" - If I interpret correctly, you on the other hand were/are advocating complete, and utter religious censorship in effect...

However, just because I work for Government should not mean I am also prohibited from quietly, and unobtrusively displaying my faith in my immediate work area, or on my person either.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 12:10 PM   #102
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does anybody else feel that Mr. Toes is correct in his assessment of my views of separation of Church and state?

i don't want the government to force you to ignore your beliefs, but if you are a representative of the state, ie state employee, you shouldn't be promoting one religion over another, ie christmas tree on the bus. He can display his religious artifacts on his private property. I don't think one religion should be promoted over another by the state on public property. does this make sense to you now?
Can we presume then it would be O.K. for an individual to acknowledge his religious belief in a manor that may be visible to the public without the fear that he will be accused of trying to influence others with his religious beliefs.
You seem to want to attack Christianity, You never mention the religious garb of muslim women, or men, the way the Jewish diamond dealers in New York dress (religious garb) or any of the other non Chrisitan public displays by non Christian groups. We have been forced to accept this even in public places like post offices, secretary of state, schools. Go look at the public bus drivers in Dearborn and see if you can pick out muslims at first glance.
It seems to me that your seperation of church and state spills over into freedom of expression providing its a Christian expression, and your O.K. with that. I just think we should have some consistancy, If your offended by a religious object maybee it shouldn't be in a public place but don't I have the same rights if I find something offensive to me not to have it displayed in a public setting?
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Old March 25th, 2008, 12:12 PM   #103
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I'm fairly certain I never endorsed the idea of my government promoting Christianity, or any other form of religion. I also wasn't speaking towards "anything I want to wear" - If I interpret correctly, you on the other hand were/are advocating complete, and utter religious censorship in effect...

However, just because I work for Government should not mean I am also prohibited from quietly, and unobtrusively displaying my faith in my immediate work area, or on my person either.
so you disagree with the separation of church/state that we have now because you want to be able to be a state employee and have a crucifix on your desk and a cross lapel pin?
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Old March 25th, 2008, 12:18 PM   #104
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so you disagree with the separation of church/state that we have now because you want to be able to be a state employee and have a crucifix on your desk and a cross lapel pin?
way to oversimplify things...

Mr Toes discussion would appear to be more accurate. Christian's while not persecuted per se' like they were in the middle ages, and/or still in the Mid-East - are in fact seemingly singled out over traditional issues the likes of which other religions are exempt from discussion.

From the Jewish disc hat (I know not what it is called) to the full Orthodox Jewish Garb, to the Muslim Burka's and what not.

Somehow you all bristle at the thought of deference to a Christian holiday (even though by your own admission it actually predates Christian religion) for Christmas, or Easter - yet seemingly embrace the daily visual "promotion" of attempting to conduct business with someone looking at you from behind a veil... or with a red dot on their forehead...
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Old March 25th, 2008, 12:23 PM   #105
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so you disagree with the separation of church/state that we have now because you want to be able to be a state employee and have a crucifix on your desk and a cross lapel pin?
I would say I disagree with not being allowed to have a crucifix on my desk or a cross lapel pin when i'm working next to some one that wears traditional muslin head garb or has their PETA lapel pin on. If thats not blatant disrimination nothing is, but we can't say anything because it wouldn't be politically correct or you may be branded a racists. Thats the inconsistancy that makes this unagreeable ( I'm not sure if thats really a word) you can't saddle me rules that nobody else has to follow or are targeted to my way of life.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 01:05 PM   #106
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how about this easter message?

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Old March 25th, 2008, 01:25 PM   #107
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I don't mind people displaying their religious beliefs. I do mind when it is paid for by tax dollars. I don't mind Christmas trees on the courtsquare or a Menorah unless public money was spent putting them up. Then there is always the idiot that wants some KKK display because of freedom of speech. I don't think the KKK is a religion, more of a sickness, so I don't like the idea of them displaying anything. I think freedom of speech is abused by those types of groups. But, then again it is freedom to speak, not to be heard. I have a problem with my 5 year old coming home from school singing the thank god for my food song the teacher taught them. If I want my child to learn about God, I will teach him or take him to church. Public school is not the place for religious instruction. I don't have any problem with teaching history that is obviously influenced heavily by religion. But, that should include religions other than just Christianity. The comment earlier about moderation is very good. Unfortunately, the religious movement is becoming more extreme, as is the opposite side in order to maintain a balance. I will never deny anyone their right to freely practice their religion, unless it infringes on my right to freedom from religion. Maybe I don't have the way with words I once had in expressing my thoughts, but it is what it is. Sorry for the rambling posts. I don't have the time to sit back and give these really deep thought and editing.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 01:57 PM   #108
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You are still an idiot. I don't know where I ever "lost" in an arguement with you. You are delusional on a good day. Just because I don't believe in your little floating fairy godfather, my arguements are pointless. You can't tolerate anyone not agreeing with you. Just like your tow dolly thread, you troll to cause shit. You ask a question and just like my 5-year old, you can't accept any answer other than the one you want.
Sweet, I was hoping for some more put downs. . . . does it make you feel smarter?? . . . your so predictable.


and very interesting thread guys. Keep it up

:dunie:

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Old March 25th, 2008, 02:20 PM   #109
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Sweet, I was hoping for some more put downs. . . . your so predictable.


and very interesting thread guys. Keep it up

:dunie:
Life will catch up to you sooner or later and bring reality crashing down around you. I just wish I could be there to laugh and point.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 02:24 PM   #110
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I don't mind people displaying their religious beliefs. I do mind when it is paid for by tax dollars. I don't mind Christmas trees on the courtsquare or a Menorah unless public money was spent putting them up. Then there is always the idiot that wants some KKK display because of freedom of speech. I don't think the KKK is a religion, more of a sickness, so I don't like the idea of them displaying anything. I think freedom of speech is abused by those types of groups. But, then again it is freedom to speak, not to be heard. I have a problem with my 5 year old coming home from school singing the thank god for my food song the teacher taught them. If I want my child to learn about God, I will teach him or take him to church. Public school is not the place for religious instruction. I don't have any problem with teaching history that is obviously influenced heavily by religion. But, that should include religions other than just Christianity. The comment earlier about moderation is very good. Unfortunately, the religious movement is becoming more extreme, as is the opposite side in order to maintain a balance. I will never deny anyone their right to freely practice their religion, unless it infringes on my right to freedom from religion. Maybe I don't have the way with words I once had in expressing my thoughts, but it is what it is. Sorry for the rambling posts. I don't have the time to sit back and give these really deep thought and editing.
that paints a far different impression/picture than I originally had. A sincere thank you for clearing it up.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 02:25 PM   #111
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Life will catch up to you sooner or later and bring reality crashing down around you. I just wish I could be there to laugh and point.
I'll let you know when it happens and I would expect nothing less then you to laugh and point, in my mind your actions shows your character best when/how you react to misfortunes of others

On the flip side God will catch up with you sooner or later as well and I'm not going to laugh but just feel sorry that you missed his message multiple times






Back to the topic at hand . . . .

Mike,

Why do you always bring up christianity and not reference other religions. Does the Cross pin bother as much as seeing a Muslim in full get up or the Indian dot or the Jewish garb?

That was a good question that was brought up earlier to you that has not been answered.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 05:20 PM   #112
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Mike,

Why do you always bring up christianity and not reference other religions. Does the Cross pin bother as much as seeing a Muslim in full get up or the Indian dot or the Jewish garb?

That was a good question that was brought up earlier to you that has not been answered.
religious symbols do not bother/offend me, state sponsored/promoted religion does. If that stuff bugged me, I'd have a hard time in life and it'd be REALLY hard to go to my girlfriend's parent's house.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 05:42 PM   #113
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religious symbols do not bother/offend me, state sponsored/promoted religion does. If that stuff bugged me, I'd have a hard time in life and it'd be REALLY hard to go to my girlfriend's parent's house.
Please give me a few examples of the State sponsored/promoted religion.



All I can think of is the nativity scene that goes out in the front of many Government buildings. In most cases those are over 25 years old as well so I don't think the state has been sponsoring them for a while besides the pay it gives to the workers who are on the clock installing it ever year.

So what other things can you think of? Maybe stem cell but that can just be against a persons morals and have nothing to do with religion, you yourself claimed that your morals have nothing to do with religion.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 05:47 PM   #114
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Man you fill up a page quick.

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Ryebread Said
no, not employed by the school - contracted by the school... if you're not aware, a great number of school districts are outsourcing or investigating future oursourcing of a large number of services that formerly were integral. bussing being one of them, custodial and meal services are others.
Yeah, Okemos was considering Privitization (Sp?) before they passed a Millage on transportation. I do agree with mike on the fact that those companies would have to adhere to the same rules us bus drivers do. In fact, Most bussing companies force you to wear a Uniform. Dean Transportation is the major "special needs" (and General trans) bussing company in Lansing and all of thier employees have to were uniforms. As well As CATA (Capitol Area Tranporstation Athourity). I get what you're saying though.

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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler
I don't mind people displaying their religious beliefs. I do mind when it is paid for by tax dollars. I don't mind Christmas trees on the courtsquare or a Menorah unless public money was spent putting them up. Then there is always the idiot that wants some KKK display because of freedom of speech. I don't think the KKK is a religion, more of a sickness, so I don't like the idea of them displaying anything. I think freedom of speech is abused by those types of groups. But, then again it is freedom to speak, not to be heard. I have a problem with my 5 year old coming home from school singing the thank god for my food song the teacher taught them. If I want my child to learn about God, I will teach him or take him to church. Public school is not the place for religious instruction. I don't have any problem with teaching history that is obviously influenced heavily by religion. But, that should include religions other than just Christianity. The comment earlier about moderation is very good. Unfortunately, the religious movement is becoming more extreme, as is the opposite side in order to maintain a balance. I will never deny anyone their right to freely practice their religion, unless it infringes on my right to freedom from religion. Maybe I don't have the way with words I once had in expressing my thoughts, but it is what it is. Sorry for the rambling posts. I don't have the time to sit back and give these really deep thought and editing.
Yeah, I'm getting to that point already, and I'm only 22. I sometimes wonder if this is really some were I need to spend alot of my time. Which I do right now, But I could probably be doing something better.

Maybe we should call you 84rambler

Ok, so on with the Freedom OF Religion Debate. Mike, I have a question for you. Do you talk about the freethinking ideas you "believe" in in your class (for some reason I get the impression your a teacher)? How bout your Nontheist belief? Do you think that me talking about Christianity and your talking about nontheist is any different? (if you do talk about it). Because, although it's not technically a religion, it's religous in nature. This is what I meant by "it's not fair". I've known teachers that talk so bad about christianity and how stupid it is and get away with it because they are Atheist (which I know your not) and they dont' have any religous ties. While the Christian Teachers that hold back thier message because they are following seperation of church and state and don't say a peep. It would seem that this interprataion is just a way for non-believers to be able to bad mouth other religions while they hide under the wing of thier government rules. Make sense?
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Old March 25th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #115
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I'll let you know when it happens and I would expect nothing less then you to laugh and point, in my mind your actions shows your character best when/how you react to misfortunes of others
Your character has been demonstrated repeatedly on this board. I guarantee that I am not on any ignore list on GL4x4. I know for a fact you have been ignored by several people on here. I should be one of them. But, you are like a horrible traffic accident that I just can't keep myself from staring at. I only react as I posted to those that get what they deserve for being complete assholes to other members of society such as you have. You never know when to shut your mouth and always go one step further than any sane person would. You claim to be so goody two shoes and all Christian, but you sure as hell don't act like it. Practice what you preach and maybe someone on this board will have any respect for you.

Just for the record, how many times have you been suspended or banned from this website now? I can't even remember all the user names you have used to weasal your whiny ass back onto this board. I'm just glad that it was my wife and I that outed you once. Of all the years I have been on these boards, I have gotten a grand total of ONE infraction over something trivial.

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Old March 25th, 2008, 06:34 PM   #116
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Yeah, I'm getting to that point already, and I'm only 22. I sometimes wonder if this is really some were I need to spend alot of my time. Which I do right now, But I could probably be doing something better.

Maybe we should call you 84rambler
:tonka:
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Old March 25th, 2008, 06:51 PM   #117
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Ok, so on with the Freedom OF Religion Debate. Mike, I have a question for you. Do you talk about the freethinking ideas you "believe" in in your class (for some reason I get the impression your a teacher)? How bout your Nontheist belief? Do you think that me talking about Christianity and your talking about nontheist is any different? (if you do talk about it). Because, although it's not technically a religion, it's religous in nature. This is what I meant by "it's not fair". I've known teachers that talk so bad about christianity and how stupid it is and get away with it because they are Atheist (which I know your not) and they dont' have any religous ties. While the Christian Teachers that hold back thier message because they are following seperation of church and state and don't say a peep. It would seem that this interprataion is just a way for non-believers to be able to bad mouth other religions while they hide under the wing of thier government rules. Make sense?
I'm a certified unemployed teacher. My specialty is history, so yes, I criticize religion on a regular basis. Look at all I have to choose from: The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. A lot of vile things have been done in the name of religion, should I sugarcoat these things? "Well, I mean they tortured them, but, you know they were witches!" No I don't advertise my religious beliefs, I'm trying to find a job, I wouldn't want to be discriminated against because of them. You think that could ever happen?
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Old March 25th, 2008, 06:52 PM   #118
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Please give me a few examples of the State sponsored/promoted religion.

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Old March 25th, 2008, 07:17 PM   #119
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I'm a certified unemployed teacher. My specialty is history, so yes, I criticize religion on a regular basis. Look at all I have to choose from: The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. A lot of vile things have been done in the name of religion, should I sugarcoat these things? "Well, I mean they tortured them, but, you know they were witches!" No I don't advertise my religious beliefs, I'm trying to find a job, I wouldn't want to be discriminated against because of them. You think that could ever happen?

I don't think you should sugar coat it at all. It's history and it's happened. Why cover up what has happened ya know? I don't like that it did happen, but it DID happen and there's no denying the horribleness (is that a word?) of the actions.

I'm saying, is it fair for you as a nontheist to critizie the church in front of Public school kids? You are representing a non-religion and in my opinion (big surprise right?) it's just as wrong as me talking about God to my kids on my bus. If you really want them to make decisions for them selves then you should leave your biases for outside of the school just as the other religous groups are supposed to do. Maybe with out even knowing it you are going agianst the very Seperation of Church and State belief that you preach so often on this board. <Shurggs>
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Old March 25th, 2008, 07:26 PM   #120
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I don't think you should sugar coat it at all. It's history and it's happened. Why cover up what has happened ya know? I don't like that it did happen, but it DID happen and there's no denying the horribleness (is that a word?) of the actions.

I'm saying, is it fair for you as a nontheist to critizie the church in front of Public school kids? You are representing a non-religion and in my opinion (big surprise right?) it's just as wrong as me talking about God to my kids on my bus. If you really want them to make decisions for them selves then you should leave your biases for outside of the school just as the other religous groups are supposed to do. Maybe with out even knowing it you are going agianst the very Seperation of Church and State belief that you preach so often on this board. <Shurggs>
to be fair, it's not like I compare it to modern day Christianity. I also call Hitler a nut, but I don't compare him with modern day Germans.
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