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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #81
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1st. being gay isn't a religion. Speaking English isn't religious.

2nd. You are a retard.
OOHHH so in your mind it's O.K. to force your sexual preference on a kid but don't say anything about religion.
The government voted down the proposal to make english our official laungage so your saying we can force whatever laungage on people but don't mention religion
OOOOH so since you think I'm a retard does that mean I can't drive the bus and I have to become a Teacher
I would be more upset if the bus driver had a fag picture on the bus dash then if their was a budda there. Also why would you think a Christmas holiday item is anymore unacceptable than a Martin Luther King day item. The government recognizes both of them as a Holiday.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:50 PM   #82
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Well the only difference is that the students aren't represenatives of the public school...well...At least in the bus. Dont worry about what drivers can and cannot do because eventaully we will be replaced with Robots. I think maybe they are just trying to get the kids familiar with a cold, non-personal, robot like person now so when they do change over to actual robots the kids won't notice.
I tried to type in a bunch of beeps and squeeks so I sounded like a robot in agreement. R2D2
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Old March 24th, 2008, 09:40 PM   #83
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OOHHH so in your mind it's O.K. to force your sexual preference on a kid but don't say anything about religion.
The government voted down the proposal to make english our official laungage so your saying we can force whatever laungage on people but don't mention religion
OOOOH so since you think I'm a retard does that mean I can't drive the bus and I have to become a Teacher
I would be more upset if the bus driver had a fag picture on the bus dash then if their was a budda there. Also why would you think a Christmas holiday item is anymore unacceptable than a Martin Luther King day item. The government recognizes both of them as a Holiday.
what don't you understand about the separation of CHURCH and state. Is this guy for real?
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Old March 25th, 2008, 05:18 AM   #84
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what don't you understand about the separation of CHURCH and state.
Church <> Religion for what it's worth...

(just had to :tonka:)
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Old March 25th, 2008, 06:31 AM   #85
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Church <> Religion for what it's worth...

(just had to :tonka:)
This I absolutely agree with.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 06:43 AM   #86
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in as much as I may disagree with some of the verbal jousting you guys are doing in here, Mr. Toes does have a certain point. There are several quoted passages directly posed at you in this 5 page thread that others have asked you to address, and for whatever reason some of you have chosen to dodge them. some have implied a pattern there with certain individuals.

an example is the idea of being comfortable with an always present, infinite universe, but somehow rejecting an always present, infinite God. Another, your absurd statements that religion causes war, and "end religion, end war" have been proven false with a mere 30 seconds of googling the term "genocide".

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in wondering where your rage against believers is stemming from, or your need to use terms like "delusional" to categorize us instead of debating like a rational adult. See most of us didn't subscribe to being spoon fed by our Churches, and/or what our parents forced down our throats in catechism (I wasn't raised, nor do I subscribe to catholicism so I'm unsure of the spelling)

See there's this thing that as we age and mature, the normal well adjusted person starts to take our norms from our peers, instead of carte blanche from our parents. During the course of public education we're also forced to learn, and thus debate, and entertain other notions, eventually forced to confront certain beliefs as best as possible and to make a decision. And trust me when I say this, that decision, and the faith it is based on is tested, poked, pushed, and prodded thousands of times each day. None of us have definitive proof of pretty much anything - and many of us struggle, and question certain aspects of our belief systems, and how to fit it all into a modern world. It's my belief, that rational debate and counterpoints are healthy for either end of the belief continuum in my opinion.

However, if you are only here to flame-bait, and call names I would submit that a better choice would be over in the recycle bin. *shrug*
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Old March 25th, 2008, 06:44 AM   #87
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This I absolutely agree with.
good, then we can further agree that separation of Church and State is healthy, but allow for a measure of Religion/Faith in State
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Old March 25th, 2008, 07:28 AM   #88
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in as much as I may disagree with some of the verbal jousting you guys are doing in here, Mr. Toes does have a certain point. There are several quoted passages directly posed at you in this 5 page thread that others have asked you to address, and for whatever reason some of you have chosen to dodge them. some have implied a pattern there with certain individuals.

an example is the idea of being comfortable with an always present, infinite universe, but somehow rejecting an always present, infinite God. Another, your absurd statements that religion causes war, and "end religion, end war" have been proven false with a mere 30 seconds of googling the term "genocide".

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in wondering where your rage against believers is stemming from, or your need to use terms like "delusional" to categorize us instead of debating like a rational adult. See most of us didn't subscribe to being spoon fed by our Churches, and/or what our parents forced down our throats in catechism (I wasn't raised, nor do I subscribe to catholicism so I'm unsure of the spelling)

See there's this thing that as we age and mature, the normal well adjusted person starts to take our norms from our peers, instead of carte blanche from our parents. During the course of public education we're also forced to learn, and thus debate, and entertain other notions, eventually forced to confront certain beliefs as best as possible and to make a decision. And trust me when I say this, that decision, and the faith it is based on is tested, poked, pushed, and prodded thousands of times each day. None of us have definitive proof of pretty much anything - and many of us struggle, and question certain aspects of our belief systems, and how to fit it all into a modern world. It's my belief, that rational debate and counterpoints are healthy for either end of the belief continuum in my opinion.

However, if you are only here to flame-bait, and call names I would submit that a better choice would be over in the recycle bin. *shrug*
I'm agnostic, I don't believe or dis-believe in the idea of a god. I think it could be real. I pretty much reject the Christian religion because it is basically a carbon copy of previous religions. Can they all be right?

If a god created me, he created me with the mind I have to think the way I do. My god wouldn't punish me for not believing a book that was written 2 thousand years ago by other people. I reject the Bible as being true the same way I reject "A Million Little Pieces".
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Old March 25th, 2008, 07:30 AM   #89
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good, then we can further agree that separation of Church and State is healthy, but allow for a measure of Religion/Faith in State
why does the state need any religion? The United States is a diverse mix of people, we don't need any religion in government. Let's keep the supernatural in the churches.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 07:44 AM   #90
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why does the state need any religion? The United States is a diverse mix of people, we don't need any religion in government. Let's keep the supernatural in the churches.
let's expand on that then. why do we need a government?

there is no single universally acceptable form of governing of the people that works flawlessly. government without religion has been proven to be just effectively brutal at trouncing human rights, committing genocide, etc. as ones ruled, or influenced heavily by state sponsored religions.

That being said, this is still a representative democracy. when the majority is able to influence their representatives in either direction we're left with the flawed process and flawed results. That balancing point on the continuum between majority rule, and individual rights.

I would submit, that our country has been most effective and productive as a whole, during times of moderation. Extremism by definition divides the people. A divided people tend to spend their energies on conflict.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 07:47 AM   #91
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why does the state need any religion? The United States is a diverse mix of people, we don't need any religion in government. Let's keep the supernatural in the churches.
careful don't be oppressing the Druids, you'll have them up in arms...

they don't practice their religion in church (do they?)
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Old March 25th, 2008, 08:10 AM   #92
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why does the state need any religion? The United States is a diverse mix of people, we don't need any religion in government. Let's keep the supernatural in the churches.
Did you know the DC talk put out a CD called Supernatural? It was a good CD. I'd rather have the supernatural, at least I can count on that to provide me with what I need.

<---Has been in a Wierd mood the past couple of days, kind of feeling a bit Crazy.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 09:08 AM   #93
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My statement about the first woman was just a test I like to give to Christians that try to "convert" me. 99% of them, including two ministers I have spoken to, do not know that prior to the mass editing of the bible in the early 1700s, Eve was the eighth woman given to Adam. The first seven were not as Adam wanted them (one liked too many sexual positions) so he continuously asked God for a "do-over". Finally, God was so fed up with Adam that he made Eve from Adam's rib, in a sort of biblical cloning process, to make a female Adam. This vanity of Adam, and the fact that Adam had sexual partners before Eve, was considered too racy for the mainly protestant population, so the entire story was cut from the bible from then on. If you view the Guttenburg Bible, or any of the ancient ones in the National Library, you will find that as much as 50% of the original works have been edited, re-written, and deleted, to the point in which the Christian of today has an entirely different basis on their religion than a Christian of only 400 years ago.
This statement is not only curious, but I can't for the life of me find anything to add any substance to it. :) I'm not saying you are wrong at all, I am genuinely wondering where this came from.

There is old Jewish folklore that Adam had 2 other wives before eve, one was named Lilith and the other had no name. The story goes that God created her in front of Adam, and he got "grossed out" by the sight of her internal organs and was repulsed by her. Then came Eve.

Another source was Brigham Young, during one of his teachings, he spouted off that Adam had multiple wives. Which was then used to justify polygamy by the LDS. He also said some very very strange things about Adam, so most of that teaching is dismissed as pure opinion and hope by Young himself.

I've read the original texts (Hebrew, Greek). Nothing and I mean nothing points to your idea, which I firmly believe to be pure conjecture on the part of a college professor you had.

However, I will eat my words if you can point me in the right direction.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 09:23 AM   #94
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what don't you understand about the separation of CHURCH and state. Is this guy for real?
Your view seems to be separation of church and state means that the government can force you to ignore your religious belief, your not allowed to acknowlege you have a religious belief. Your not allowed any public display of you religious belief. Try that with race, sexual perferance, political support, or anything other than religion and you'll be branded as some type of racist, and in some instances you could be prosecuted.

So explain the intent of separation of church and state.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 10:18 AM   #95
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Your view seems to be separation of church and state means that the government can force you to ignore your religious belief, your not allowed to acknowlege you have a religious belief. Your not allowed any public display of you religious belief. Try that with race, sexual perferance, political support, or anything other than religion and you'll be branded as some type of racist, and in some instances you could be prosecuted.

So explain the intent of separation of church and state.
does anybody else feel that Mr. Toes is correct in his assessment of my views of separation of Church and state?

i don't want the government to force you to ignore your beliefs, but if you are a representative of the state, ie state employee, you shouldn't be promoting one religion over another, ie christmas tree on the bus. He can display his religious artifacts on his private property. I don't think one religion should be promoted over another by the state on public property. does this make sense to you now?
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Old March 25th, 2008, 10:31 AM   #96
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I understand what you are saying, Sova.

Makes perfect sense. They are letting their religion cloud their brains from free thought.:tonka:
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Old March 25th, 2008, 10:39 AM   #97
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does anybody else feel that Mr. Toes is correct in his assessment of my views of separation of Church and state?

i don't want the government to force you to ignore your beliefs, but if you are a representative of the state, ie state employee, you shouldn't be promoting one religion over another, ie christmas tree on the bus. He can display his religious artifacts on his private property. I don't think one religion should be promoted over another by the state on public property. does this make sense to you now?
and if the bus is actually leased, and the driver's are private employees?

so much of what we think of as "public" these days is increasingly no longer "public" - further so much of what the government (and non-profits) engage in are now expanding beyond the reach of "core/essential" services as most would originally envision.
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Old March 25th, 2008, 11:04 AM   #98
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and if the bus is actually leased, and the driver's are private employees?

so much of what we think of as "public" these days is increasingly no longer "public" - further so much of what the government (and non-profits) engage in are now expanding beyond the reach of "core/essential" services as most would originally envision.
well, they would be employed by the school and would probably have standards in place to align them with the school's policies.

what about it?
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Old March 25th, 2008, 11:08 AM   #99
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well, they would be employed by the school and would probably have standards in place to align them with the school's policies.

what about it?
no, not employed by the school - contracted by the school... if you're not aware, a great number of school districts are outsourcing or investigating future oursourcing of a large number of services that formerly were integral. bussing being one of them, custodial and meal services are others.

there are also believe it or not many areas of the country where the cost of real estate is so high, that public entities are forced to lease their real estate to perform their functions - that is your argument about "public ownership" flies right out the window.

finally, as part of that crossing over point I was making. as an example it is actually very common for school districts to rent out the use of their schools', auditoriums, and/or Gyms for the use of Churches that are in transition...

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Old March 25th, 2008, 11:38 AM   #100
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no, not employed by the school - contracted by the school... if you're not aware, a great number of school districts are outsourcing or investigating future oursourcing of a large number of services that formerly were integral. bussing being one of them, custodial and meal services are others.

there are also believe it or not many areas of the country where the cost of real estate is so high, that public entities are forced to lease their real estate to perform their functions - that is your argument about "public ownership" flies right out the window.

finally, as part of that crossing over point I was making. as an example it is actually very common for school districts to rent out the use of their schools', auditoriums, and/or Gyms for the use of Churches that are in transition...
when i said employed, i meant contracted, excuse me. The people who are contracted by the school would also be working for a company who would have some type of standards they enforce. The school would probably make an arrangement. In most companies are you allowed to wear whatever you want because of a holiday? no...so there can be separation in the private sector also based on company policies.

this whole argument though, comes down to the fact that you want your government to promote Christianity. ok, but what about judaism, islam, hinduism, paganism, etc. isn't it just easier to have them SEPERATE? worship in your church, promote your religion on your own time.
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