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Old March 24th, 2008, 01:09 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
if that's how you understand it...feel free. but to me, that part in the constitution does echo the idea of separation of church and state along with the previous thoughts and ideas of the founding fathers, many who were deists, at best.

Do you think that Church should be intermingled with state? Do you want a theocracy?

I know you're not asking me, but I'll butt in anways.

No. I totally agree that they should be completely seperate, but I also think that the same religous freedom the founding fathers wanted for the U.S. has been squashed because of people miss-using that idea.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 01:32 PM   #62
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but I also think that the same religous freedom the founding fathers wanted for the U.S. has been squashed because of people miss-using that idea.
Amen. (couldn't resist :tonka: )
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Old March 24th, 2008, 02:42 PM   #63
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I know you're not asking me, but I'll butt in anways.

No. I totally agree that they should be completely seperate, but I also think that the same religous freedom the founding fathers wanted for the U.S. has been squashed because of people miss-using that idea.
how so? if you agree with separation of church and state, how have religious freedoms been squashed? you can't have it both ways, (i.e. separation of church and state + state endorsed church activities)

I guess I don't understand what you're talking about...

i don't worry too much about my freedom OF religion so much as my freedom FROM religion.

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Old March 24th, 2008, 05:09 PM   #64
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This is a very interesting discussion.

The question was brought up about non-religious types and where they get their moral standards from. I can't speak for anyone else, but mine probably came from the way I was raised (by a non-church going Christian and an Atheist), as well as what my experiences have been. I believe it is wrong to steal, and wrong to cheat. These things are also shared by Christians and other religions. What I believe is Moral might be different than another person. I believe most "try" to follow the golden rule...do unto others...

On the Old English question... Old English texts go back to about the year 500.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 05:23 PM   #65
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how so? if you agree with separation of church and state, how have religious freedoms been squashed? you can't have it both ways, (i.e. separation of church and state + state endorsed church activities)

I guess I don't understand what you're talking about...

i don't worry too much about my freedom OF religion so much as my freedom FROM religion.

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I agree that there should not be a Government religion, I also agree that a Religion shouldn't rule a Government.

What I meant by our religous freedoms have been squashed is that Because of groups like the one you linked too, most people that follow a religion can't express it with out getting into some kind of trouble. I can't even put a Fricken Christmas tree in my bus because of it. I'm not forcing anyone to become Christian, I'm just letting them know what I celebrate. In todays culture I can't even let the kids I see everyday know what I celebrate. Soon they'll be banning Birthday parties because not everyone has a birthday on the same day. Groups that support this kind of activities (not the one you linked, that's different) are like the little kid that whines to his parents that "it's not fair". If you don't like what I celebrate, don't celebrate it. I'm not forcing you too. That's what I meant.

I wonder what the founding fathers would think of Your group there. Do you think if they wanted it to be interperted as Freedom From religion they would have put From instead of ? Just curious.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 05:55 PM   #66
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My statement about the first woman was just a test I like to give to Christians that try to "convert" me. 99% of them, including two ministers I have spoken to, do not know that prior to the mass editing of the bible in the early 1700s, Eve was the eighth woman given to Adam. The first seven were not as Adam wanted them (one liked too many sexual positions) so he continuously asked God for a "do-over". Finally, God was so fed up with Adam that he made Eve from Adam's rib, in a sort of biblical cloning process, to make a female Adam. This vanity of Adam, and the fact that Adam had sexual partners before Eve, was considered too racy for the mainly protestant population, so the entire story was cut from the bible from then on. If you view the Guttenburg Bible, or any of the ancient ones in the National Library, you will find that as much as 50% of the original works have been edited, re-written, and deleted, to the point in which the Christian of today has an entirely different basis on their religion than a Christian of only 400 years ago.
I have never heard this claim before. Could you please provide some reference to this claim so that i can learn more about it. Thanks.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 06:01 PM   #67
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On the Old English question... Old English texts go back to about the year 500.
Yeah, but Genesis was written way before that. If you wanted to get the closest translation you'd have to go to the Hebrew transcript. If you can prove from that, then I will conseed. It sounds like you're reading from a Heretical text. They were left out of the bible. They may have been considered scripture, but not holy scripture. When the bible, as we know it today, was formed there were strict standards that a possible text had to conform too. Not conforming to the standards didn't make a text heretical though. Were it came from is what made it that way. But of course, Being a History buff, you probably knew that.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 06:35 PM   #68
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I know exactly what you are speaking about. The exact writing of Genesis is not know, and widely debated. Some believe as early as 1000 BC, and others as late as 400 AD. I have no personal opinion there, because I have not seen strong enough proof in any way, nor original copies. However the texts I refer to that I have read from the 1600s were in English, and considered true bibles. The stories of the women before Eve were in them, and considered some of the most important teachings in Elizabethan England. It was highly controversial when they were cut. At one time, I had photocopies of these texts. They probably got thrown away with all of my old school stuff when I moved, but if I come across them, I'll gladly share. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Edith the name of one of the women before Eve?
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Old March 24th, 2008, 07:09 PM   #69
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More people have been killed under the banner of Christianity than anything else. Christians as a whole are the most unforgiving, non-accepting, and unmoral group I can think of. Religion is the root of all evil. Wars are caused by religion. End Religion, End War.
The atheist governments of USSR and China killed many millions also.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 07:29 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by keithshotrodshop View Post
I know exactly what you are speaking about. The exact writing of Genesis is not know, and widely debated. Some believe as early as 1000 BC, and others as late as 400 AD. I have no personal opinion there, because I have not seen strong enough proof in any way, nor original copies. However the texts I refer to that I have read from the 1600s were in English, and considered true bibles. The stories of the women before Eve were in them, and considered some of the most important teachings in Elizabethan England. It was highly controversial when they were cut. At one time, I had photocopies of these texts. They probably got thrown away with all of my old school stuff when I moved, but if I come across them, I'll gladly share. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Edith the name of one of the women before Eve?
more than a couple of us are interested in this. with the plethora of anti-Christian resources on the web, and/or anti-religious resources available I'm surprised to see no other reference to many other "first wives" of Adam's, or "first women".

The closest, which from skimming the wiki article is actually sourced from the old testament readings of the talmud/torah and refers to a lilith, but more so as a demonlike creature...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve

re: the mass editing. I should think then that you'd appreciate the efforts that the folks that put forth the NIV went through.

You can read some of those interpretation efforts here: http://www.ibs.org/niv/accuracy/NIV_AccuracyDefined.pdf

as is pointed out in that document as they address the criticisms of the NIV:
Loosely quoted, as the .pdf is locked.
"Whether people follow the Textus Receptus, the Majority Text, or one other they will arive at the same basic Christian Theology - they may change our understanding of one verse or another, but they will not alter Christian Doctrine one whit"

In as much as I have to take certain professional text books, or college course books on faith, as they cite professional research, and references, the NIV, and other Bibles also typically cite the methodology used in their translations.

They also through the committee process face their own form of peer review. Note, I'm referring to translation review, not credibility as to the stories, parables and teachings.

The NIV foreward indicates exhaustive use of ancient manuscripts - explicitly indicating that they did NOT rely upon KJV, or contemporary conspiracy theories about a central Church destroying, and editing each and every version of the Bible... oh, and comparable ancient old testament resources including the more or less parallel old testaments that exist in the torah/talmud/Quaran (I'm confessing quite a bit of ignorance over Jewish/Islamic Writings)

Sounds like something Mr. Brown would hack together into another best selling pulp fiction novel.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 07:39 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by keithshotrodshop View Post
I know exactly what you are speaking about. The exact writing of Genesis is not know, and widely debated. Some believe as early as 1000 BC, and others as late as 400 AD. I have no personal opinion there, because I have not seen strong enough proof in any way, nor original copies. However the texts I refer to that I have read from the 1600s were in English, and considered true bibles. The stories of the women before Eve were in them, and considered some of the most important teachings in Elizabethan England. It was highly controversial when they were cut. At one time, I had photocopies of these texts. They probably got thrown away with all of my old school stuff when I moved, but if I come across them, I'll gladly share. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Edith the name of one of the women before Eve?
I also find it interesting that this rewriting was apparently done in cooperation with the Jewish keepers of the Torah at it seem to contain the exact same text as the Christian Bible.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 07:44 PM   #72
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Anyone else think it's funny when 84scrambler throws out the "you act like a 12 y/o +/- 6 years"

I love similar themes

And Mr. Toes . . . I don't have a PHD and I understood what you said but then again he say's you fight like me so maybe that's why. He also lost in arguments with me as well so fighting like me is a very good sign for you :tonka:

And Jesus Rocks!! Thank you Jesus!!!
You are still an idiot. I don't know where I ever "lost" in an arguement with you. You are delusional on a good day. Just because I don't believe in your little floating fairy godfather, my arguements are pointless. You can't tolerate anyone not agreeing with you. Just like your tow dolly thread, you troll to cause shit. You ask a question and just like my 5-year old, you can't accept any answer other than the one you want.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 07:50 PM   #73
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It sounds like you're reading from a Heretical text. They were left out of the bible. They may have been considered scripture, but not holy scripture. When the bible, as we know it today, was formed there were strict standards that a possible text had to conform too. Not conforming to the standards didn't make a text heretical though. Were it came from is what made it that way. But of course, Being a History buff, you probably knew that.
It was probably something the Christians of the time didn't agree with, so they erased it. It is to the point that I don't think anyone can prove anything that happened ever. You can't use digital images to prove anything that happened yesterday. You can't use old documents because they may have been forged. You can't believe old texts because they may have been altered due to some agenda. For all we truly know, the stories of the bible were nothing more than the comic books of today. Strictly fantasy and entertainment.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 07:59 PM   #74
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You are still an idiot. I don't know where I ever "lost" in an arguement with you. You are delusional on a good day. Just because I don't believe in your little floating fairy godfather, my arguements are pointless. You can't tolerate anyone not agreeing with you. Just like your tow dolly thread, you troll to cause shit. You ask a question and just like my 5-year old, you can't accept any answer other than the one you want.
Dude you seem to have alot of penned up hostility. First I do have to agree with your statement about you losing an argument. The reason I agree is you never address anything anyone posts or answer any questions about what you post so since you don't say anything you can't lose an argument. Second you sound totally irrational like maybee you get liquored up before you get on the computer.

Before you go off take a good look at my posts that you responded to. Read what they say and then read your responses. It's kind of scary.

I would like some useful conversation not a fight. Thats why most of my posts ask questions.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:03 PM   #75
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I agree that there should not be a Government religion, I also agree that a Religion shouldn't rule a Government.

What I meant by our religous freedoms have been squashed is that Because of groups like the one you linked too, most people that follow a religion can't express it with out getting into some kind of trouble. I can't even put a Fricken Christmas tree in my bus because of it. I'm not forcing anyone to become Christian, I'm just letting them know what I celebrate. In todays culture I can't even let the kids I see everyday know what I celebrate. Soon they'll be banning Birthday parties because not everyone has a birthday on the same day. Groups that support this kind of activities (not the one you linked, that's different) are like the little kid that whines to his parents that "it's not fair". If you don't like what I celebrate, don't celebrate it. I'm not forcing you too. That's what I meant.

I wonder what the founding fathers would think of Your group there. Do you think if they wanted it to be interperted as Freedom From religion they would have put From instead of ? Just curious.
Do you drive a school bus for a public school? if yes, then you are a representative of the state and should not include anything religious in your bus, as that would be promoting a religion. Anything else you can do, like have a tree at your own house or in your own car. If you honestly believe any of that drivel that you just typed you are too far gone into your delusion.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:10 PM   #76
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I know exactly what you are speaking about. The exact writing of Genesis is not know, and widely debated. Some believe as early as 1000 BC, and others as late as 400 AD. I have no personal opinion there, because I have not seen strong enough proof in any way, nor original copies. However the texts I refer to that I have read from the 1600s were in English, and considered true bibles. The stories of the women before Eve were in them, and considered some of the most important teachings in Elizabethan England. It was highly controversial when they were cut. At one time, I had photocopies of these texts. They probably got thrown away with all of my old school stuff when I moved, but if I come across them, I'll gladly share. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Edith the name of one of the women before Eve?


Yeah, I am really curious. Honestly. If you find them, That'd be great. On another note, all my college stuff is in a bunch of Boxes waiting to be set a blaze after I graduate.....If I ever do. Just the unimportant documents of course.

Quote:
Do you drive a school bus for a public school? if yes, then you are a representative of the state and should not include anything religious in your bus, as that would be promoting a religion. Anything else you can do, like have a tree at your own house or in your own car. If you honestly believe any of that drivel that you just typed you are too far gone into your delusion.
Yeah, I drive for a Public school. I just remember when I was a Kid I was wished a Merry Christmas (Happy Easter, etc..)by my teachers and even my bus driver. Nobody thought a thing about it. Now it's like one of the seven deadly sins to. And the crazy thing is that my public school career wasn't very long ago. People used to not get offened by that kind of stuff. Now it seems as though some people hold the right to not be offened higher then other foundational freedoms. It's crap.

I'm not any farther in my Delusion than you are in yours.

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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:23 PM   #77
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Do you drive a school bus for a public school? if yes, then you are a representative of the state and should not include anything religious in your bus, as that would be promoting a religion. Anything else you can do, like have a tree at your own house or in your own car. If you honestly believe any of that drivel that you just typed you are too far gone into your delusion.
If what your saying about a represenative of the state is true then you should not be allowed to have a picture of your wife as it would suggest your sexual preference and could be offensive to queers. For that matter you should have to look totally generic and not speak as it may be offensive to illegal aliens if you spoke english. Furthermore all the occupants on the bus should be forced to adhere to the same rules after all if it is a school bus it is the governments property.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:30 PM   #78
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If what your saying about a represenative of the state is true then you should not be allowed to have a picture of your wife as it would suggest your sexual preference and could be offensive to queers. For that matter you should have to look totally generic and not speak as it may be offensive to illegal aliens if you spoke english. Furthermore all the occupants on the bus should be forced to adhere to the same rules after all if it is a school bus it is the governments property.
1st. being gay isn't a religion. Speaking English isn't religious.

2nd. You are a retard.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:39 PM   #79
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If what your saying about a represenative of the state is true then you should not be allowed to have a picture of your wife as it would suggest your sexual preference and could be offensive to queers. For that matter you should have to look totally generic and not speak as it may be offensive to illegal aliens if you spoke english. Furthermore all the occupants on the bus should be forced to adhere to the same rules after all if it is a school bus it is the governments property.

Well the only difference is that the students aren't represenatives of the public school...well...At least in the bus. Dont worry about what drivers can and cannot do because eventaully we will be replaced with Robots. I think maybe they are just trying to get the kids familiar with a cold, non-personal, robot like person now so when they do change over to actual robots the kids won't notice.
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Old March 24th, 2008, 08:43 PM   #80
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I'm not any farther in my Delusion than you are in yours.
ok. Then you better contact Bill O'Reilly and start fighting the war on Birthdays.
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