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Old March 18th, 2008, 05:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bigwalton View Post
A two party system, by design, has two extremes.
....

Ok, so let's fix that...
Id be fine with a two party system if it was conservative vs libertarian
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Old March 18th, 2008, 05:48 PM   #42
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I have about four ammo cans full of surplus. I usally buy my stuff by the case 500 or 1000 depending on cal. I can't usally get 264 win mag or 375 H&H mag as a surplus ammo. How about what do you pay for 1000 308 or 7.62x51. I was just trying to get a comparison for that round or 223. Sometimes I run into decent deals on non surplus ammo.
The other thing is sometimes if your buying surplus thats not US you could be getting a corrosive powder and not know it.
bout 500$ for 1000 7.62x51 nato spec 148gr fmj Lithuanian battle packs. thats 5 packs of 200 sealed in plastic, and its non corrosive, made within the last 10 years. your lucky to find steel cased south african battle packs for 100$ each. any of my magnum calibers i handload for hunting and target shooting, much better than buying them and cheaper too.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 06:33 PM   #43
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Interesting, and (with one exception) civil.

Myself, I "lean right" per Pete's verbology. But, like many things in life, nothing's absolute.

I lean left in a lotta ways - I'm pro-choice, don't care if gays get married, think we oughta legalize (and tax) pot, and think we need to be more protective of our industries. I believe we need to develop and execute a plan where Iraqis are doing all of the heavy lifting to defend their own freedom.

But then, I lean really right in others. The Second Amendment is clear and unambiguous, leave it along already. If our safety or vital interests are threatened, warn them once, and if they don't stop, hit 'em hard and leave no one standing - never put a member of our armed services at risk unless you're willing to go all the way. Lower taxes. Then lower them some more. There are damn few things (outside the military) that government does that private industry doesn't/can' do better and cheaper. Reduce dependency through deep, sweeping welfare reforms (i.e. elimination).
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Old March 18th, 2008, 08:26 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by bigwalton View Post
A two party system, by design, has two extremes.

There's the cause of basically every comment on this thread IMHO.

Whichever one your on, you'll hear/notice the complaining of the other more than your own, it's human nature. Everyone bitches equally I think.

Straight party voting is too easy and lets people vote based on not one single moment of actual thought. "I generally agree with more of the X's views, so I vote X" Moderates are left with the choice of which extreme to go with for which office... drives me nuts as someone with distinct opinions that don't fit any party "Do I vote for A based on these issues and just accept these other ones?".

Ok, so let's fix that...

A three party system won't work as it would realistically have to be smack in the middle and you'd end up with too much BS waffling back and forth and I don't think it would ever be taken seriously.

What I've always thought is needed is a four party system, call the two new ones whatever you like, with a left center and right center.

I'd think there's enough people out there that fall in that range (even many that call themselves D or R now) to make it work. Throw candidates into the mix with those affiliations and things could get interesting, they'd no longer have to bow to the party platforms and could actually stand for what they want/believe (imagine that!).

I hate politics and maybe that's too practically minded to work, but I'd love to see it happen to get rid of this cut and dry, one or the other approach.




Of course the other issue is that saying: Anyone smart enough to hold office is smart enough not to run. :tonka:
I agree that the 2 party system needs to go, but no system that mandates a certain number of parties will work. Our current system doesn't say that there should be 2 parties, and in fact theres dozens of political parties. The problem is that our system tends to create an environment where most people gravitate to one of 2 parties. If we want to have most parties to have a realistic chance of getting their candidate elected we need to change that system.

I'd start with ditching the entire primary process. I don't see why the government has anything to do with how the parties choose who represents them. Let the parties choose however they want, with a primary, caucus, arm wrestling, tittly-winks tournament, I don't care, but no government agency, on any level, federal, state, nor local, should have anything to do with it nor should they pay for it. As I see it political parties are private enterprises, why are public agencies involved with deciding who represents a private enterprise in the general election.

Next, we need to scrap the electoral college. It's an archaic system justified for long obsolete reasons used to usurp the will of the people. We should elect the President by direct popular vote, and a candidate should have to get a majority, not just a plurality, of the votes cast. This would make it so that if an "alternative party" did run and get a high percentage of votes they wouldn't be just pulling votes from the other candidate most like him and ensure the other candidate a victory. If no candidate got a majority a runoff election would be held to decide the winner.

After that we need to get into the workings of the Congress, but I don't know enough about how all that works to know what to change.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 08:40 PM   #45
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Let the parties choose however they want, with a primary, caucus, arm wrestling, tittly-winks tournament...
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Old March 18th, 2008, 09:17 PM   #46
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Interesting, and (with one exception) civil.

Myself, I "lean right" per Pete's verbology. But, like many things in life, nothing's absolute.

I lean left in a lotta ways - I'm pro-choice, don't care if gays get married, think we oughta legalize (and tax) pot, and think we need to be more protective of our industries. I believe we need to develop and execute a plan where Iraqis are doing all of the heavy lifting to defend their own freedom.

But then, I lean really right in others. The Second Amendment is clear and unambiguous, leave it along already. If our safety or vital interests are threatened, warn them once, and if they don't stop, hit 'em hard and leave no one standing - never put a member of our armed services at risk unless you're willing to go all the way. Lower taxes. Then lower them some more. There are damn few things (outside the military) that government does that private industry doesn't/can' do better and cheaper. Reduce dependency through deep, sweeping welfare reforms (i.e. elimination).
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I agree that the 2 party system needs to go, but no system that mandates a certain number of parties will work. Our current system doesn't say that there should be 2 parties, and in fact theres dozens of political parties. The problem is that our system tends to create an environment where most people gravitate to one of 2 parties. If we want to have most parties to have a realistic chance of getting their candidate elected we need to change that system.

I'd start with ditching the entire primary process. I don't see why the government has anything to do with how the parties choose who represents them. Let the parties choose however they want, with a primary, caucus, arm wrestling, tittly-winks tournament, I don't care, but no government agency, on any level, federal, state, nor local, should have anything to do with it nor should they pay for it. As I see it political parties are private enterprises, why are public agencies involved with deciding who represents a private enterprise in the general election.

Next, we need to scrap the electoral college. It's an archaic system justified for long obsolete reasons used to usurp the will of the people. We should elect the President by direct popular vote, and a candidate should have to get a majority, not just a plurality, of the votes cast. This would make it so that if an "alternative party" did run and get a high percentage of votes they wouldn't be just pulling votes from the other candidate most like him and ensure the other candidate a victory. If no candidate got a majority a runoff election would be held to decide the winner.

After that we need to get into the workings of the Congress, but I don't know enough about how all that works to know what to change.

See, this is why I really like these 2 guys. Both very level headed.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:22 PM   #47
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C'mon guys I can reload those calibers and do, reload your own and provide for your family this econ downfall is only temporay.
Use your skills while you can
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:34 PM   #48
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oh crap I entered too much, CC please delete
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:38 PM   #49
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oh crap I entered too much, CC please delete
you can edit your posts.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:47 PM   #50
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whoops, lol I have a pretty mixed outlook, I don't claim one side or the other, but I do agree that the liberals piss me off, I work and they want to give away my money. That is bull shit. Tell that useless sack of baby making, walmart shopping, cigarette rolling, boxed cheese eating, skank to close her legs, why the hell should I pay for another individual anywhere to provide nothing for them selves? Just in concept alone that makes me lean right.

I agree in limited time help, much like unemployment. When it runs out, get up off your ass and go to work. I work to hard to watch my check go to feed her, rather than me being able to take my kids to the lake fishing. I earned taking my kids fishing, what did she do to earn the food in her belly, the roof over her head or the shoes on her feet, that kept my kids from fishing this weekend?

Stupid Liberals

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Old March 19th, 2008, 06:13 AM   #51
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oh crap I entered too much, CC please delete
Simply click the "edit" button on the bottom of your post.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 06:50 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
Interesting, and (with one exception) civil.

Myself, I "lean right" per Pete's verbology. But, like many things in life, nothing's absolute.

I lean left in a lotta ways - I'm pro-choice, don't care if gays get married, think we oughta legalize (and tax) pot, and think we need to be more protective of our industries. I believe we need to develop and execute a plan where Iraqis are doing all of the heavy lifting to defend their own freedom.

But then, I lean really right in others. The Second Amendment is clear and unambiguous, leave it along already. If our safety or vital interests are threatened, warn them once, and if they don't stop, hit 'em hard and leave no one standing - never put a member of our armed services at risk unless you're willing to go all the way. Lower taxes. Then lower them some more. There are damn few things (outside the military) that government does that private industry doesn't/can' do better and cheaper. Reduce dependency through deep, sweeping welfare reforms (i.e. elimination).
Wow Duffy, AND you drink beer? We're going to get along awesome on the trail.

You summed up my feelings to a T.

I don't think Pete likes me though, but that's okay, I like him.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 09:02 AM   #53
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C'mon guys I can reload those calibers and do, reload your own and provide for your family this econ downfall is only temporay.
Use your skills while you can
I do reload, but when you can get lots of bullets for cheaper than you can make em jump on it.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 09:17 AM   #54
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ScOoTeR.....I like you.....lots.....I think.........

Watch out, I am a liberal who owns guns and does not like the welfare system as it stands today.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #55
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ScOoTeR.....I like you.....lots.....I think.........

Watch out, I am a liberal who owns guns and does not like the welfare system as it stands today.

What makes you liberal?
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Old March 19th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #56
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I agree that the 2 party system needs to go, but no system that mandates a certain number of parties will work. Our current system doesn't say that there should be 2 parties, and in fact theres dozens of political parties. The problem is that our system tends to create an environment where most people gravitate to one of 2 parties. If we want to have most parties to have a realistic chance of getting their candidate elected we need to change that system.
I agree and am all for more parties, I don't want anything mandating 4. Trick is getting out of the current system within the limits of what's reasonable and doable. I agree with all of your thoughts, but that won't happen if it hasn't already IMHO.

Given that the current two parties are firmly in control, why would they change things to make it easier for additional parties (ie. eliminating electoral college and primary system). I don't think the "other" parties don't have primaries to determine candidates, heck Nader just jumps in on a whim every time as far as I can tell.

I think you'd be limited by what you could manage within the current system and that's why I think two moderate parties have a chance given that's where the majority of Americans would fall (including the center-ish members of the D and R)

Actually, on thinking about it... if you really wanted to mess with the electoral college idea, a four party race could seriously foul things up... that would be fun!

Picture this election:
Huckabee for Republican
McCain for moderate right
Obama for moderate left
Hilary for Democrat

Now that would be a party worth watching!
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Old March 19th, 2008, 01:32 PM   #57
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What makes you liberal?

I do not consider myself belonging to one party or another, so a Dem or Rep label will not work.

I am in fact a moderate for all intents and purposes, I stand on issues, not parties or candidates.

My leanings are to the left on many things, especially some of my more core beliefs. I do, however, lean right on some things. And even stranger, on some subjects I have feelings on both sides of the fence.

Examples:

Pro Choice, but would never ask a woman to get an abortion. I am personally against abortion as a form of birth control, but feel it should be a matter of personal choice. Liberal view. True conservatives want a complete ban on abortions, with very few exceptions.

Gun Control. I am a gun owner. I love shooting guns, I love hunting. I hope I will have to courage to pull the trigger to protect my loved ones. But I am against full access to all weapons out there. Machine guns belong in the hands of the proper authorities. And metal piercing rounds are not required for target shooting, hunting or home defense. I also have no problem with a waiting period for hand gun purchase. Of course, in the case of death threat or some other real and iminent danger, there should be a way around the wait. This is one of those where my views fall on both sides of the issues.

I believe that this country should have a national health care program. Now I am not talking about boob jobs for street walkers. But I am talking about basic health care. My son works 5 days a week at his job. The health care through work is so expensive that he can not afford it. It is a choice of food and rent, or health insurance. He chooses food and rent. He suffers through illness instead of being taken care of by a doctor. Why can this country not provide simple, basic health care for someone who works? Now, I am not talking about replacing all health care with a national program. Better health care has been used as an incentive from employers for a long time. I am just talking about basic care for those who do not have access to and can not afford it. This is a liberal view


Just a few examples of how I stand on some things and why I would consider myself a liberal, albiet, a moderate liberal. Or would that be a liberal moderate.

A lot of people seem to make a big thing of labels, especially Liberal. It seems to be a swear word to many. I see conservatives and liberals as 2 sides of the same coin. Same thing with the labels of Democrat and Republican. I just simply do not see the reason for the hatred based on a label.

Last edited by PeteC; March 19th, 2008 at 01:44 PM.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 01:38 PM   #58
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Here is an idea for those who want to get away from the 2 party system.

Any party gets a place on the ballot for Congress if they simply prove they represent a certain % of the people in the country.

The Greens would have a say, the Labor movement, the conservatives and liberals would be their own entities. Those are just a few I can think of.

This is akin to a parliament. It does work in other civilized, industrialized countries.

Just have to get people to actually get away from the 2 existing and find the party that really speaks to their specific situation, wants and needs.

Elect the President based on popular vote from all parties. And I agree, the parties pick their own candidates, it should be a party thing, not a national thing.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 02:22 PM   #59
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PeteC, well put, I think there's an awful lot of us out there in that type of situation. Basically

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Just have to get people to actually get away from the 2 existing and find the party that really speaks to their specific situation, wants and needs.
That's exactly right and why it'll be so hard to make a serious go of another party/multiple parties. This is what I meant when I said that it has to be a "reasonable and doable" setup to work at all. I feel like it has to be something in the middle of the two and this is why the green party and libertarians aren't more powerful IMO. I think the alternatives are too far off to the side of the politcal spectrum (ie. not left or right, maybe top or bottom)
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Old March 19th, 2008, 04:25 PM   #60
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