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Old March 16th, 2008, 09:05 AM   #21
bigjay
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Originally Posted by fukkinrizzo View Post
I think the less we use of foreign oil the better.

I heard we were sending all the oil from Alaska to Japan. Is that true?
yes
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Old March 16th, 2008, 09:12 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by yellowjeeperman View Post
I'm not an enviro-nazi, but I hear E85 is worse for the environment than gasoline? Found a new article just recently on that.

In the big picture, yes, IMO. Because of what it takes to grow the corn (or sugarcage or hemp or whatever) to create the ethanol. Especially in 3rd world countries, they are slashing and burning to start up fuel farms. It also drives up the commodity price on corn.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 09:15 AM   #23
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Wait, a biased website wants to make E85 look rosy?

It wouldn't be the first time you believed some kind of bunk like that... *cough* 100000mile oil changes *cough*
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Old March 16th, 2008, 09:40 AM   #24
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Filling up yesterday ($181 in Diesel) this old man next to me filling his 07-08 F250 Diesel blurts out " I hope the fkin Arabs choke on their god damn oil" I loled and asked him how much he was putting in.. "$30" he replied, "Fk em'" You show them old man :)
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Old March 16th, 2008, 09:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Wait, a biased website wants to make E85 look rosy?

It wouldn't be the first time you believed some kind of bunk like that... *cough* 100000mile oil changes *cough*
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Old March 16th, 2008, 11:00 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by phazer42 View Post
well.... being a fuel engineer I get to dable in this stuff every day.... To run E-85, it takes much more then just putting a few wires in series with your injectors....

E-85 is a more corrosive fuel then gasoline. It will eat away at things such as certain plastics, level sender cards, electrical harnesses within the tank, hoses etc.... if you don't know what you are doing, and don't have the means to find out the details on your components, don't do it....

I have an E-85 Impala and I never run E-85. Why? cuase its roughly only $0.30 less here in the Detroit area then gasoline. It doesn't work out. When I first picked up the impala I ran 4 tank fulls of E85 to check out the mileage.... I would get roughly 50-60 miles less per tank then what I would with gasoline. However, in the Impala, as noted before, it checks for the alcohol level in the fuel and adjusts the timing accordingly....

Check ot these links...
http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleanciti...g.html#webcast - might not be present anymore.... basically was a guy from GM that went to the EPA and gave a rpeentation about a year ago about E85 and what manufactures do to certify their vehicles and... what E85 does to them...

http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm

Bio-diesel on the other hand isn't quite as bad as wht can come with E-85 but it also has its issues....

One thing to note is that there is an open mandate that any gasoline that you use right now may contain E10, and they don't have to tell you. If it contains more then that they do. Unless you live in Minnesota, they have a mndate for E20, which I am lead to believe is actually more corrosive then E85.... thats what the whole cuntry was to goto but it was recently shot down, we will see if it gets passed on a retification soon....
Iowa I think is an E20 state as well, or something near it. Personally I'd like to know what it really is, because I've been using the stuff with no ill effects so far.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 12:20 PM   #27
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I am in no way an expert here and do not proclaim to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phazer42 View Post
no.... I am not going to call this report a lie.... but, if they chose the right system, perhaps without their knowledge, they could get lucky.... but I have personally seen many reports showing what E-85 does to fuel components.

Is gasoline corrosive? yes.... BUT we have many many many years of experience working with it. It reacts differently to the materials used in gasoline. Some materials react the same. If they just put the E85 in their vehicle and ran it without doing a full tear down after X,XXX miles then how would they know what the effects are??????
True, but as stated in the report, E85 is not new. I has been around for years and the mfg have been preparing for it in their designs. There is a whole crapload of info out there of which vehicles are compatible (component wise) and which are not.

Of course, no conversion kit is certified by the EPA yet that I have heard of.




OR I could be a HAG GAR and proclaim to be a god knowing all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Wait, a biased website wants to make E85 look rosy?

It wouldn't be the first time you believed some kind of bunk like that... *cough* 100000mile oil changes *cough*
It would be the first time you tried to convince people you are smarter than you really are either.

When you do not have any personal experience with a product, you really should keep you diapers on and sit back down in the corner.

Last edited by Smiley23; March 16th, 2008 at 12:35 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 12:27 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ckupq View Post
Iowa I think is an E20 state as well, or something near it. Personally I'd like to know what it really is, because I've been using the stuff with no ill effects so far.
Wl assuming what you mean by "it" is E85.... here are some facts that I have posted on another forum....

Quote:
if you run E85 here are the possibilities (or probabilities) of what can / will happen....

- You can Void your warranty (if they catch you and you still have one)
- Your Engine will run lean (lean as described is a bad thing)
- Fuel pressure is probably not an issue - but still not ideal
- Materials on the level sender / pump / electrical components within the fuel tank all may degrade much much sooner then designed due to the corrosive nature of E85 relative to gasoline (E0 or E10) which may cause a situation where your shoes may be more handy then your car
- Check engine light triggering a multitude of codes
- Possible breakdowns of components either within or related to the fuel system
- Loss of fuel mileage / economy

basically if your vehicle isn't designed for it you are using it as a test bed.... which you may, or may not be able to afford....
Quote:
its not really an unknown if the parts will degrade within E85 or E100 or whatever... its a known fact... they will.... part of the reason why the vehicle needs to be "certified" by the manufacture to be able to run the fuel in the first place.... imagine a fuel pump over time looking like a moldy piece of bread.... that can happen with the wrong materials within an E85 system. Fingers on your level senders can become brittle / corroded and flake off - wires going to the level sender and the fuel pumps will also degrade creating loss of connection or intermittent connections.

As anyone that owns and runs E85 in their Tahoes, Suburbans etc what their fuel economy is for E85 relative to gasoline.... it will be less with E85, another well known fact....

ECM mods can help for preventing the engine to run lean, but this would require constant changing if you plan on running gasoline and E85....

Just because you put an ECM calibration in the car doesn't mean that the EVAP system will work properly... you could set a multitude of codes from that system and potentially not be able to pass certification emissions if your state requires that check to be done....

My recomendation.... don't run E85 in your vehicle or you are just asking for troubles.... Go find that 94 Octane fuel and add octane boost if you feel you MUST have that extra octane....
now, there is a guy who has been running E85 in his LS1 Camaro for some time now... however, he truly understands E85 and knows what materials it works with and doesn't work with. So again, if you decide to do this just because you read it somewhere that it would work and don't really know what you are doing, you have to be able to pay the consequences if they occur.

On a side note, with E85 becoming more popular, there is a trend where the auto companies are starting to use more components that are capable of being run in both fuels, but again... unless you know what those are and what your components are don't do it.... but again.... its just my opinion - written on the internet....
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Old March 16th, 2008, 12:28 PM   #29
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Overall, ethanol from corn is a load of bunk. It was pushed by the agriculture lobbyists and is nothing more than a hidden tax that is being used to put farmers back to work and to stimulate tractor and equipment sales to support growing corn. It is worse for the environment than just using oil. The energy output of corn is less than the energy required to produce it in many areas due to the required use of fertilizers, pesticides, watering systems, etc... It is nothing more than a feel good effort by our government to make people feel that they are making a difference and sticking it to the "arabs or big oil." Ethanol can help solve our oil crisis, but it won't be based on corn as the source. There are MANY alternative crop sources that will provide more ethanol with less energy needed to produce it. Unfortuantely, the agriculture lobbyists have incredible pull in DC. Their main agenda is stimulating agriculture in the US again, not conserving fuel.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley23 View Post
I am in no way an expert here and do not proclaim to be.



True, but as stated in the report, E85 is not new. I has been around for years and the mfg have been preparing for it in their designs. There is a whole crapload of info out there of which vehicles are compatible (component wise) and which are not.

Of course, no conversion kit is certified by the EPA yet that I have heard of.




OR I could be a Jesus and proclaim to be a god knowing all...



It would be the first time you tried to convince people you are smarter than you really are either.

When you do not have any personal experience with a product, you really should keep you diapers on and sit back down in the corner.

Well, thats fine.... personally I like to go with the info provided from the OEMs that create the vehicles rather then aftermarket sources.... true, the OEMs are generally conservitive on their information, but they were the ones who designed it in the first place.... to each is their own I guess.... I am just trying to convey experience, take it as you wish.....
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Old March 16th, 2008, 12:44 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by phazer42 View Post
Well, thats fine.... personally I like to go with the info provided from the OEMs that create the vehicles rather then aftermarket sources.... true, the OEMs are generally conservitive on their information, but they were the ones who designed it in the first place.... to each is their own I guess.... I am just trying to convey experience, take it as you wish.....
Understood, I am not arguing with you. Now Hag gar on the other hand is one of those that will argue anything to make himself look smart.

My interests would sit in an older vehicle like a 95 and I know that info is not going to come from a manufacturer but rather personal experience.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 04:29 PM   #32
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When you do not have any personal experience with a product, you really should keep you diapers on and sit back down in the corner.
Shouldn't you take your own advise???
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Old March 16th, 2008, 04:42 PM   #33
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Shouldn't you take your own advise???
I thought the same thing when I read his post. He definitely seems to always have an opinion...
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Old March 16th, 2008, 05:38 PM   #34
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Shouldn't you take your own advise???
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler View Post
I thought the same thing when I read his post. He definitely seems to always have an opinion...
And how is that?
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Old March 16th, 2008, 05:43 PM   #35
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E85, blah


the money to convert a car over to run on it, and the drop in fuel mileage, and the fact that you have to drive further to find it.

Meh, just get an Early 90's import that isn't rusty that will get 40-45 mpg's, and save the gas guzzler for special days.


Now if i could find a Justy :tonka:
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Old March 16th, 2008, 06:35 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Smiley23 View Post
Understood, I am not arguing with you. Now Hag gar on the other hand is one of those that will argue anything to make himself look smart.

My interests would sit in an older vehicle like a 95 and I know that info is not going to come from a manufacturer but rather personal experience.
Not at all. I will talk cars all day long, sure. Because I design them for a living. Snicker if it makes you feel better. But last I looked, the OEMs pay me to design their cars, and pay you to rid their toilets of soup-can turds.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 06:36 PM   #37
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Not at all. I will talk cars all day long, sure. Because I design them for a living. Snicker if it makes you feel better. But last I looked, the OEMs pay me to design their cars, and pay you to rid their toilets of soup-can turds.


AAAHAHAHHahahahhahaha!!!
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Old March 16th, 2008, 06:36 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Not at all. I will talk cars all day long, sure. Because I design them for a living. Snicker if it makes you feel better. But last I looked, the OEMs pay me to design their cars, and pay you to rid their toilets of soup-can turds.
oh you design cars now too?


Like the whole thing, I sort of thought you designed the bits that go behind my speedo. :tonka:
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Old March 16th, 2008, 06:45 PM   #39
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Not at all. I will talk cars all day long, sure. Because I design them for a living. Snicker if it makes you feel better. But last I looked, the OEMs pay me to design their cars, and pay you to rid their toilets of soup-can turds.
Yeah, sure. And I am God, so how would you like that heart attack?

So many smart people wish they really were someone "Special". :tonka:
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Old March 16th, 2008, 07:05 PM   #40
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And how is that?
You're kidding me, right?

All I have to say, on this topic at least, is if you think you're such an E-85/Ethanol wizard, maybe you should take your generous and oh-so plentiful knowledge to SAE and tell them that their data/findings are wrong

Some of the bullshit you've "added" to this discussion is nothing more than that - bullshit, and it goes against more than a few SAE published documents that I have read (if you really must, I can cite them for you when I find time). Going on the internet, reading some bias propaganda website, and then regurgitating the info does not make you knowledgeable on the subject
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