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Old February 22nd, 2008, 10:30 AM   #61
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Why do you want to send this to the dnr? You are just bringing attention to yet another group of fools that are breaking the rules and giving the powers-that-be more ammunition to close everything down.

Flame away, I don't have a better answer, but that just doesn't make any sense.

BTW, there are plans for a big group from another site to go up there for a run in a few weeks. PLEASE be careful. We are all under a microscope right now.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 10:53 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Well I certainly think that if I get a ticket using a full time or 4wd vehicle and the CO cites the conventional 2wd rule, no judge is going to look at my 4wd/awd and say "you're right, it looks just like a car".

I don't think there is anything vague or ambigious about how the law is written.
Then you have give up and given in. I don't think I am ready to do that yet.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 10:53 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by purplejeep View Post
BTW, there are plans for a big group from another site to go up there for a run in a few weeks. PLEASE be careful. We are all under a microscope right now.
I would tend to agree not to drege up old news.
So, does this 'other' big group understand what is/is not open on D.I.?
I don't
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 10:54 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplejeep View Post
Why do you want to send this to the dnr? You are just bringing attention to yet another group of fools that are breaking the rules and giving the powers-that-be more ammunition to close everything down.

Flame away, I don't have a better answer, but that just doesn't make any sense.

BTW, there are plans for a big group from another site to go up there for a run in a few weeks. PLEASE be careful. We are all under a microscope right now.

I will tell you why, these guys made a post a while back of the same type of activity and blew us all off as idiots trying to tell them what they can and cannot do. They believe they are above the law and it does not pertain to them.

That is number one, number two is this vid is on Youtube for the world to see, just like with the recent article in Car and Driver we have been discussing. When the uneducated see this type of avtivity either through Youtube or in a national magazine they assume it is ok and want to try it themselves.

So now you have hundreds of people converging on the Island to "wheel the beach" because they seen it on the web or in a mag. Either way it will get closed unless we the responsible educate the wheeling community.

So these guys have already refused to not be educated, maybe sending in their own vid to the DNR, we will let them do the educating!

Last edited by CreativeFab; February 22nd, 2008 at 11:07 AM.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 10:55 AM   #65
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Then you have give up and given in. I don't think I am ready to do that yet.

Well go out and get your ticket there hero
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 10:57 AM   #66
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Then you have give up and given in. I don't think I am ready to do that yet.
Hardly. I never said I wouldn't fight a ticket. I'm just not going to try to bullshit someone by trying word games about vehicle description.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 11:12 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ironman View Post
They believe they are above the law and it does not pertain to them.

So now you have hundreds of people converging on the Island to "wheel the beach" because they seen it on the web or in a mag. Either way it will get closed unless we the responsible educate the wheeling community.

So these guys have already refused to not be educated, maybe sending in their own vid to the DNR, we will let them do the educating!
Isn't this old news? I thought this was posted last October?
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 11:25 AM   #68
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Pics were posted last year, video was just posted. Is there a timeline on bad behavior?

No matter when this oocured I am tired of others ruining it for the rest! without consequence. sp?
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 11:43 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplejeep View Post
Why do you want to send this to the dnr? You are just bringing attention to yet another group of fools that are breaking the rules and giving the powers-that-be more ammunition to close everything down.

Flame away, I don't have a better answer, but that just doesn't make any sense.

BTW, there are plans for a big group from another site to go up there for a run in a few weeks. PLEASE be careful. We are all under a microscope right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
I would tend to agree not to dredge up old news.
So, does this 'other' big group understand what is/is not open on D.I.?
I don't
jim-kb8ymf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironman View Post
I will tell you why, these guys made a post a while back of the same type of activity and blew us all off as idiots trying to tell them what they can and cannot do. They believe they are above the law and it does not pertain to them.

That is number one, number two is this vid is on Youtube for the world to see, just like with the recent article in Car and Driver we have been discussing. When the uneducated see this type of activity either through Youtube or in a national magazine they assume it is ok and want to try it themselves.

So now you have hundreds of people converging on the Island to "wheel the beach" because they seen it on the web or in a mag. Either way it will get closed unless we the responsible educate the wheeling community.

So these guys have already refused to not be educated, maybe sending in their own vid to the DNR, we will let them do the educating!
I think all of these points are valid.

Perhaps IF the video is sent to the Department, it should be accompanied by a well written letter explaining what the 4x4 community finds offensive, that the community has attempted to educate this particular group in the past and failed, and that the 99.9% of us who do keep it legal believe that these are the type of individuals who need the "education" process taken up a level.

This begs the question "What is it we find offensive about the video?".

I personally don't find the slow traversing of a deep water obstacle offensive.

I think the high-speed splashing would be found offensive by the Department because it sends the water so much farther from the road, and at a much higher velocity, than keeping it slow. I think the Dept would also find the speed "excessive". Personally, IF the vegetation on the sides of the road are of a type that can handle the extra water and force of impact, and the driver is in complete control of his vehicle on an open road he's very familiar with, I don't really see it as that bad (But who the heck knows that much about the plants on the sides of a trail).

I find the off trail running over a tree to be bad form.

Making your own go-around is way-bad form.

The beach is bad form because it's a well known no-no, although I really think there should be more places where we can use the beach. I personally feel the few hundred feet of shoreline at Silver Lake as compared to the length of overall Michigan Great Lakes shoreline is a ridiculously low ratio.

I also find it offensive that the Dept. hasn't implemented a reasonable 4x4 friendly ORV Route system there yet too.


Agree/Disagree?
Thoughts?
Discussion?

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; February 22nd, 2008 at 05:11 PM.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 11:49 AM   #70
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I Agree on all points Pat!
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 11:58 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplejeep View Post
Why do you want to send this to the dnr? You are just bringing attention to yet another group of fools that are breaking the rules and giving the powers-that-be more ammunition to close everything down.

Flame away, I don't have a better answer, but that just doesn't make any sense.

BTW, there are plans for a big group from another site to go up there for a run in a few weeks. PLEASE be careful. We are all under a microscope right now.
Essentially like Trail Fanatic eluded to we do have the right to self-police. I think it would be great if the off-road community aided in the prosecution of these guys by providing the prosecuting attorney with the laws that these guys violated along linked to clear cut examples in the video.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:03 PM   #72
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I believe the site will be contacted about some photos on there contradicting tread lightly! policy.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:04 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
I would tend to agree not to drege up old news.
So, does this 'other' big group understand what is/is not open on D.I.?
I don't
jim-kb8ymf
I'm sure they know the basics. Most of them are on here and seem very responsible. What I'm trying to get across is we need to be very careful right now. Take it slow, tread lightly and stay away from areas that we know we aren't supposed to be on like the beach and Marble Head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
I think all of these points are valid.

Perhaps IF the video is sent to the Department, it should be accompanied by a well written letter explaining what the 4x4 community finds offensive, that the community has attempted to educate this particular group in the past and failed, and that the 99.9% of us who do keep it legal believe that these are the type of individuals who need the "education" process taken up a level.

This makes good sense. Don't just send off a video showing some idiots being stupid and say..."Hey what do you think about this sh*t."
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:07 PM   #74
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I believe the site will be contacted about some photos on there contradicting tread lightly! policy.
To be honest with you. Tread Lightly would question a lot of the pictures posted on this site. If they see a muddy vehicle they feel you are breaking their rules.

They questioned some of the members rigs pics on the Two-Trackers website. They were pics taken at the Badlands and on legal county roads.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:10 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by purplejeep View Post




This makes good sense. Don't just send off a video showing some idiots being stupid and say..."Hey what do you think about this sh*t."
Never my intent, Mr. Brower (Trailfanatic) hasn't been at this game as long I have been, he just spelled out what any of us from GLFWDA would do, me included, if we were to send this in. I've been at it so long that I dont spend the time explaining it like he does, he'll get as tired as me someday and just start typing willy nilly
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:10 PM   #76
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The initial photo was thier main concern.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:11 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplejeep View Post
I'm sure they know the basics. Most of them are on here and seem very responsible. What I'm trying to get across is we need to be very careful right now. Take it slow, tread lightly and stay away from areas that we know we aren't supposed to be on like the beach and Marble Head.




This makes good sense. Don't just send off a video showing some idiots being stupid and say..."Hey what do you think about this sh*t."
The problem is, if we don't police it by making them aware that we know about it, and trying to do something about it, it will come back to us. It has in the past. This site, as with many others have been "blamed" as a representative of offroading in Michigan.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:11 PM   #78
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I personally feel the few hundred feet of shoreline at Silver Lake as compared to the length of overall Michigan Great Lakes shoreline is a ridiculously low ratio.


when i worked at mac woods dune rides we drove in to lake michigan at least 20 times a day or more..
but the state makes a lot of money from mac woods so its "ok"
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:20 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ironman View Post
Never my intent, Mr. Brower (Trailfanatic) hasn't been at this game as long I have been, he just spelled out what any of us from GLFWDA would do, me included, if we were to send this in. I've been at it so long that I dont spend the time explaining it like he does, he'll get as tired as me someday and just start typing willy nilly
Yeah, wasn't worried about you sending it off exactly as I said.

You hit the nail on the head. This is something that GLFWDA should be sending to the DNR. Not necessarily some random member of GL4x4. It gives our cause some credibility.

Oh yeah, then you can make Pat write that fancy letter to go with it. He talks pretty and knows lots of big words.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 12:37 PM   #80
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Oh yeah, then you can make Pat write that fancy letter to go with it. He talks pretty and knows lots of big words.
He does have a way with words!
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