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Old January 30th, 2008, 07:19 AM   #21
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First of all, the wealthiest people put very little in to our economy, but they are the largest load on our infrastructure. Corporations are 'legal persons' and they use more of our infrastructure than the entire citizenry combined. They are the ones that should pay the most, but Reagan got rid of the 90% taxation rule that this country prospered under for decades, and that's when the middle class started getting squeezed. Until we roll back the Reagan tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and 'legal persons' we will continue down this path.

"Buy low - sell high" is the mantra of succesful stock investors. When the stocks are down it's time to buy. When they are up, it's time to sell. Variations on the theme such as long term holdings, etc. will differ from this basic strategy, but that is what the wealthy do. I watch it all the time. Of course, it helps them if everyone believes what you said because then stocks become more plentiful and therefore lower in price (simple economics).

I couldn't agree with you more on your last point. Way too many people have been spoiled for way too long while the rest of the world got our scraps, and the piper is coming for payment. A massive equalization (redistribution of wealth) is headed our way. There will remain the same amount of wealth worldwide as before, but now we will be losing more and more of it to the poor in outher countries, and they will grow accordingly. It's already happeneing, and people like Geo. Herbert Walker Bush touted their New World Order long ago, and now it's being carried out quite efficiently.

I've met too many unskilled workers in Michigan that make as much as I do and I'm a corporate officer. These people live very high, buying new boats every couple of years, new cars, huge televisions with all the trimmings and systems, and all kinds of other toys. Now many of them can't pay for them and they are blaming the Chinese........ They should have saved their money and invested it like I did, because I'm doing fine. Don't own a bunch of toys, but doing well. Toys don't feed the family or pay for your retirement.

It's not governments job to save us from the mess we made of our own country. After all, most of you want lower taxes (which will result in leaner government and less government support), so how can you (in the same breath) say you aren't satisfied what the government is doing? Besides, "we the people" ARE the government. It's time to quite sniveling, get off your asses, throw the tea in the harbor and take our government back.
You, are an idiot. Your very first statement proves you have NO clue about economics or how money works. You are completely backwards. Wealthy people contribute more to the economy than any non-wealthy person ever could. Every time they buy something, they are contributing to the economy. Their sales tax burden is large. They circulate large amounts of money through the economy because they spend more. They also contribure more to the economy by putting large amounts of money into savings. This is then loaned by the banks to other people that in turn spend it on something, which further contributes to the economy. Take your Democrat bullshit somewhere else. Like maybe somewhere called a college and learn something.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 09:49 AM   #22
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You, are an idiot. Your very first statement proves you have NO clue about economics or how money works. You are completely backwards. Wealthy people contribute more to the economy than any non-wealthy person ever could. Every time they buy something, they are contributing to the economy. Their sales tax burden is large. They circulate large amounts of money through the economy because they spend more. They also contribure more to the economy by putting large amounts of money into savings. This is then loaned by the banks to other people that in turn spend it on something, which further contributes to the economy. Take your Democrat bullshit somewhere else. Like maybe somewhere called a college and learn something.
Obviously, you have never studied economics or finance. The lower and middle class put way more money into the econmy than the upper class. The upper class pays more in taxes but does not contribute more to the economy. The upper class does not put money into savings accounts. The returns are too low. They invest in things like stocks and real estate which does not put money into our economy. When you buy a stock you are giving money to another investor; where they most likely reinvest in another stock. This is why Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are "extremely" rich on paper. The vast majority of their wealth is tied up in investments. It isn't out stimulating our economy.
Luxury items bought by the wealthy are a miniscule amount compared to every day purchases. There is no comparison. Maybe you need to head to your local library and read up on economics and finance. Maybe then you will realize how money is moved around our economy.
The upper class only acccounts for 1% of our population. (Thompson, W. & Hickey, J. (2005). Society in Focus. Boston, MA: Pearson, Allyn & Bacon; Beeghley, L. (2004). The Structure of Social Stratification in the United States. Boston, MA: Pearson, Allyn & Bacon) This 1% cannot spend more more money than the other 99%. Their everyday spending does not inherently affect the lower or middle class. Example - rich guy buys a new Lexus. How does this help a single mother of three that spends her entire paycheck each week to pay her mortgage and buy groceries? The rich (1% of pop.) buy their groceries at Kroger. Big spenders, they buy $300 worth of groceries instead of $200. Really stimulating the economy! Your arguements don't hold water.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 11:46 AM   #23
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Obviously, you have never studied economics or finance.
Yep, I don't have a degree in economics or an MBA.

Buying stocks and real estate DOES put money into the economy in the form of legal fees, accountant fees, commissions to brokers, etc... In total, the lower and middle class as a group DO contribute more to the economy as a group. There are more of them. But, if you compare apples to apples, you will find that one member of the highest class and one member of any other class, when compared side by side, will contribute more to the economy.

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Old January 31st, 2008, 06:47 AM   #24
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Yep, I don't have a degree in economics or an MBA.

Buying stocks and real estate DOES put money into the economy in the form of legal fees, accountant fees, commissions to brokers, etc... In total, the lower and middle class as a group DO contribute more to the economy as a group. There are more of them. But, if you compare apples to apples, you will find that one member of the highest class and one member of any other class, when compared side by side, will contribute more to the economy.
You can't compare one-to-one. The upper-class only makes up 1% of the population. You have to compare 99-to-1. The legal fees, account fees, etc are chump change when you look at the economy as a whole. There is the study and macro-economics and micro-economics. You are trying to blur the two to make a point that can't work.
Everyone contributes. You comparison is just an invalid arguement.
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Old January 31st, 2008, 07:17 AM   #25
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You, are an idiot. Your very first statement proves you have NO clue about economics or how money works. You are completely backwards. Wealthy people contribute more to the economy than any non-wealthy person ever could. Every time they buy something, they are contributing to the economy. Their sales tax burden is large. They circulate large amounts of money through the economy because they spend more. They also contribure more to the economy by putting large amounts of money into savings. This is then loaned by the banks to other people that in turn spend it on something, which further contributes to the economy. Take your Democrat bullshit somewhere else. Like maybe somewhere called a college and learn something.
LOL! You've been listening to Rush Limbaugh too long.... "Duh, mega-ditto's Rush, duuuuh mega-dittos". I would be very interested in knowing what your background in economics is, as well as your socioeconomic demographic. I have a shiny new nickel that says it's not too impressive. Nonetheless, you obviously don't have a very good accountant or you would be far more enlightened than you obviously aren't.

What a rube.
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Old January 31st, 2008, 07:51 AM   #26
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You can't compare one-to-one. The upper-class only makes up 1% of the population. You have to compare 99-to-1. The legal fees, account fees, etc are chump change when you look at the economy as a whole. There is the study and macro-economics and micro-economics. You are trying to blur the two to make a point that can't work.
Everyone contributes. You comparison is just an invalid arguement.
And the funniest part is that he doesn't even realize that those fees to which he refers are paid to people that invest it as you described above, so the money continues to flow just as you said. I should know because I invest right along with them. My money is in investments such as stocks (which are taking a friggin' beating right now.... Ouch) and mutual funds.

In spite of what I just said, I am still a liberal and beleive that this is our country, not Rush Limbaughs and Geo. W's. I believe we all deserve universal health care like the other 35 industrialised nations where it has no more problems than our system (and we can still have upgraded services for those that want to pay extra). I believe that we need to roll back the Reagan tax cuts and return our economy to the state it was in when it was fluorishing. I believe that we have the capability to provide all of our citizens with a fantastic education. I believe that the elderly, infirm, disabled, and mentally impaired CAN'T go out and get a job like the conservatives say we all should, so they need our help (or we can send them to the gas chamber like the ultimate conservative, Adolph Hitler did).
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Old February 1st, 2008, 09:43 AM   #27
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In spite of what I just said, I am still a liberal and beleive that this is our country, not Rush Limbaughs and Geo. W's. I believe we all deserve universal health care like the other 35 industrialised nations where it has no more problems than our system (and we can still have upgraded services for those that want to pay extra). I believe that we need to roll back the Reagan tax cuts and return our economy to the state it was in when it was fluorishing. I believe that we have the capability to provide all of our citizens with a fantastic education. I believe that the elderly, infirm, disabled, and mentally impaired CAN'T go out and get a job like the conservatives say we all should, so they need our help (or we can send them to the gas chamber like the ultimate conservative, Adolph Hitler did).

quoted because this paragraph is so silly I dont know if theres any way to reply to it
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Old February 1st, 2008, 10:10 AM   #28
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quoted because this paragraph is so silly I dont know if theres any way to reply to it
Okay, so which part is silly?

1. this is our country, not Rush Limbaughs and Geo. W's?
2. we all deserve universal health care like the other 35 industrialised nations?
3. we need to roll back the Reagan tax cuts and return our economy to the state it was in when it was fluorishing.?
4. we have the capability to provide all of our citizens with a fantastic education?
5. the elderly, infirm, disabled, and mentally impaired CAN'T go out and get a job like the conservatives say we all should, so they need our help ?

Please, give your little criticism some substance and let's hear what you have to back it up.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 12:53 PM   #29
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Okay, so which part is silly?

1. this is our country, not Rush Limbaughs and Geo. W's?

There is no way to reply to this. I dont understand what your point is. Ok, Ill try. This is our country, not billary clintons or, uuuh, al franken's.

2. we all deserve universal health care like the other 35 industrialised nations?

How can you possibly think that the government will provide better cheaper health care than what is out there right now. The people who need it due to circumstances beyond their control already have it ie medicaid/medicare. The rest can get it thru conversion and private plans. And the rest probably dont give a shit or are to lazy to put any effort into getting some health care.

There may be problems with this countries health care system, but dont just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

An example of government programs COBRA, taking cobra from my last job was something in the range of $700/month. A private conversion plan thru BCBSM was $430 for myself/wife/kid. Cobra is regulated by the government that is - mismanaged and wasteful. Federal universal health care would be no different.

Name one of your 35 industrial nations whos health care program offers as good care as we have in this country and isnt bankrupt...

Let me say one more thing. The children. Guess what, the children are covered already. If you make less than (I think 35k/year) your children are already covered by the federal government. If you make more, then go out and get your own goddam health care. I did. Just because people like clinton keep repeating over and over ' want the children to exist without health care' doesnt mean its true.


3. we need to roll back the Reagan tax cuts and return our economy to the state it was in when it was fluorishing.?

Which reagan tax cuts, and do you mean flourishing like it was at teh end of carter's presidency?

4. we have the capability to provide all of our citizens with a fantastic education?

What do you mean by provide? Like free college for everybody? Even the people who dont give a shit?

And why do the intellectual talking head running our countries universities keep raising the cost of education? They are taking it out of the reach of working people all while demanding that government and banks give loans. Who the hell cares how "interest free" a loan is when the loan is for $50k?.

And what type of fantastic education are you referring to? The new liberal how do you feel about the equation? Or the old way of what is the correct answer to the equation? Our public schools are falling apart, failing, and when people are given an opportunity to remove their kids from failing schools libs cry. They'd rather force people to keep their kids in shit schools and funnel more money into the teachers union.


5. the elderly, infirm, disabled, and mentally impaired CAN'T go out and get a job like the conservatives say we all should, so they need our help ?

This is blatantly silly. Nobody is making people with no arms go out and deliver newspapers. The problem is there are plenty of people with 2 good arms who refuse to do it. What is the liberal solution for laziness?

Please, give your little criticism some substance and let's hear what you have to back it up.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 01:13 PM   #30
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Okay, so which part is silly?

1. this is our country, not Rush Limbaughs and Geo. W's?
2. we all deserve universal health care like the other 35 industrialised nations?
3. we need to roll back the Reagan tax cuts and return our economy to the state it was in when it was fluorishing.?
4. we have the capability to provide all of our citizens with a fantastic education?
5. the elderly, infirm, disabled, and mentally impaired CAN'T go out and get a job like the conservatives say we all should, so they need our help ?

Please, give your little criticism some substance and let's hear what you have to back it up.
1 I hate to tell you this but Rush and George are Americans and it is their country as much as yours

2 Who pays for this? If you want this are you willing to pay the same burden pecentage wise on a dollar as say G.M. or D.O.W. or Me ? If not, I'm not interested in you recieving universal health care off my back. If you want it you have to pay the same as me.

3 We need to further cut taxes or make the tax system as a system that taxes each and every dollar equally. Lets hear all the squealling that would go on then.

4 Thats fine if we all share equally in the burden

5 they need the equally shared help not just me as a buisness owner.

6 Who and where do you propose to get all this money from. Alienate me by saying each one of my dollars should be taxed more than yours. Don't think I'll be jumping on that band wagon.

7 What I see from the liberals is all these good ideas that someone else (usually succesful conservatives) should fund and support. Not for me.















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Old February 1st, 2008, 01:16 PM   #31
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This is the biggest line of bull I've seen in a long time.

1. The wealthiest people in the country are the ones who start new businesses that the "middle" class work for and make money. The more businesses that are available for them to work for, the higher the demand for workers and the higher the wages become.

2. The top 10% of wage earners pay 90% of the taxes in this country. Do you think they should pay the other 10% too? Talk about wealth redistirbution, hey why not make them pay all my bills too, I can't possibly be paying my fair share, that would make too much sense.

3. The middle class hasn't been getting squeezed. The middle class is shrinking because they are becoming rich (the upper class). That's right the middle class is shrinking the lower class is about the same and the upper class is growing.

I can only conclude that you're drinking the Kool-Aid.
Read K&J'sDad's comments above yours that I quoted here. I'm not going to repeat it and waste space or time.

I am middle class and I am DEFINITELY NOT getting richer. Are you?
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Old February 1st, 2008, 01:19 PM   #32
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you know the thing that really chaps my ass about this thread is the bipartisanship. it's bullshit. it needs to go away.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 01:44 PM   #33
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1. this is our country, not Rush Limbaughs and Geo. W's?

There is no way to reply to this. I dont understand what your point is. Ok, Ill try. This is our country, not billary clintons or, uuuh, al franken's.

2. we all deserve universal health care like the other 35 industrialised nations?

How can you possibly think that the government will provide better cheaper health care than what is out there right now. The people who need it due to circumstances beyond their control already have it ie medicaid/medicare. The rest can get it thru conversion and private plans. And the rest probably dont give a shit or are to lazy to put any effort into getting some health care.

There may be problems with this countries health care system, but dont just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

An example of government programs COBRA, taking cobra from my last job was something in the range of $700/month. A private conversion plan thru BCBSM was $430 for myself/wife/kid. Cobra is regulated by the government that is - mismanaged and wasteful. Federal universal health care would be no different.

Name one of your 35 industrial nations whos health care program offers as good care as we have in this country and isnt bankrupt... Switzerland. Denmark. Spain. Should I go on?

Let me say one more thing. The children. Guess what, the children are covered already. If you make less than (I think 35k/year) your children are already covered by the federal government. If you make more, then go out and get your own goddam health care. I did. Just because people like clinton keep repeating over and over ' want the children to exist without health care' doesnt mean its true.

3. we need to roll back the Reagan tax cuts and return our economy to the state it was in when it was fluorishing.?

Which reagan tax cuts, and do you mean flourishing like it was at teh end of carter's presidency? - Are you asking because you want to see if I know, or because you don't know? It would be a very long response, but if necessary I can. Let me know.

4. we have the capability to provide all of our citizens with a fantastic education?

What do you mean by provide? Like free college for everybody? Even the people who dont give a shit? - The people that don't give a shit won't go, so that's a moot point.

And why do the intellectual talking head running our countries universities keep raising the cost of education? They are taking it out of the reach of working people all while demanding that government and banks give loans. Who the hell cares how "interest free" a loan is when the loan is for $50k?. - Was this to SUPPORT my premise? Because it sure is.

And what type of fantastic education are you referring to? The new liberal how do you feel about the equation? Or the old way of what is the correct answer to the equation? - The latter, of course, but a humanities curriculum is beneficial, so I don't know why we would discount that. Our public schools are falling apart, failing, and when people are given an opportunity to remove their kids from failing schools libs cry. They'd rather force people to keep their kids in shit schools and funnel more money into the teachers union. - Exactly, that's why we need to be putting our money back in to them instead of Iraq, and tax breaks for big oil, and Bush's office of Faith Based Initiatives, etc.

5. the elderly, infirm, disabled, and mentally impaired CAN'T go out and get a job like the conservatives say we all should, so they need our help ?

This is blatantly silly. Nobody is making people with no arms go out and deliver newspapers. The problem is there are plenty of people with 2 good arms who refuse to do it. What is the liberal solution for laziness? - There is no solution for laziness. I'm not calling the elderly and infirm lazy. Are you? Stick to the issue.

Please, give your little criticism some substance and let's hear what you have to back it up.
Here you go.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 01:49 PM   #34
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1 I hate to tell you this but Rush and George are Americans and it is their country as much as yours You're right. They sure are, and it sure is, but it is ALL of ours, and we need to be channeling our tax revenues in to something that benefits US, not the big multinational corporations.

2 Who pays for this? If you want this are you willing to pay the same burden pecentage wise on a dollar as say G.M. or D.O.W. or Me ? If not, I'm not interested in you recieving universal health care off my back. If you want it you have to pay the same as me. I already do. I'm paying $1k a month for insurance I rarely use.

3 We need to further cut taxes or make the tax system as a system that taxes each and every dollar equally. Lets hear all the squealling that would go on then. - Yeah, flat tax would rock wouldn't it?

4 Thats fine if we all share equally in the burden

5 they need the equally shared help not just me as a buisness owner.

6 Who and where do you propose to get all this money from. Alienate me by saying each one of my dollars should be taxed more than yours. Don't think I'll be jumping on that band wagon. We already HAVE the money. Read my thread "One Day in Iraq".

7 What I see from the liberals is all these good ideas that someone else (usually succesful conservatives) should fund and support. Not for me. - Again, see my thread "One Day in Iraq".

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Here you go.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 01:50 PM   #35
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you know the thing that really chaps my ass about this thread is the bipartisanship. it's bullshit. it needs to go away.
So what would you propose as a solution?
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Old February 1st, 2008, 02:41 PM   #36
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Here you go.
I read the thread one day in Iraq and I also read the roll back the Regan tax cuts.

Your $1,000.00 a month insurance premium is not going to universal health care. My question is how do we pay for that. Also health care is not insurance, liberals keep bitching about big buisness but continually try to get government funded insurance by crying health care. Makes sense to me give the insurance companys more money. I cant remember the last time I went to an insurance company to get stitched up.


How can you have a flat tax without screwing the wealthy and buisness owners?


Why do you insist on spending the money going to Iraq why not cut taxes? And it sounds to me like your implying that the money going to Iraq would solve all of our problems and give the liberals all the money they could hope to blow on goverment funded programs.

Where do you suggest we channel our tax revenues that would benifit us that means you and I. How about the majority of the population.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 02:54 PM   #37
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So what would you propose as a solution?
I have a solution . Get rid of the polititions in office, gut the fat out of the government, make everbody contribute on an equal basis, start running this country like a buisness and not like a unlimited funded charity, overhual our court system, make political parties illegal, stop all the politcal correctness bullshit you hurt my feelings called me a name chicken shit waste of everbodys time and get on with being Americans. All of these supposed advancements have done nothing but made the US into a bunch of candy ass someone do something for me crying bictches. The squeeky wheel gets the greese, bullshit you get rid of that wheel and get one that works.















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Old February 1st, 2008, 03:03 PM   #38
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I want to respond to ALL of this, but I am multitasking on a budget cut review, reviewing engineering specs/bids, and trying to lead a team through a project, so I have to drop out until tonight. Talk to you later!
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Old February 1st, 2008, 04:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Our public schools are falling apart, failing, and when people are given an opportunity to remove their kids from failing schools libs cry. They'd rather force people to keep their kids in shit schools and funnel more money into the teachers union. - Exactly, that's why we need to be putting our money back in to them instead of Iraq, and tax breaks for big oil, and Bush's office of Faith Based Initiatives, etc.

Makes no sense
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Old February 1st, 2008, 04:10 PM   #40
jimhri
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Default OUR problem in nutshell

A Somalian arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the UnitedStates.

He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says, "Thank you Mr. American for letting me in this country , giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care, and free education!" The passerby says, "You are mistaken, I am Mexican."

The man goes on and encounters another passerby. " Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America !" The person says, "I not American, I Vietnamese."

The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says, "Thank you for the wonderful America!" That person puts up his hand and says, "I am from Middle East , I am not American!"

He finally sees a nice lady and asks, "Are you an American?" She says , "No, I am from Africa!" Puzzled, he asks her, "Where are all the Americans?"

The African lady checks her watch and says..."Probably at work!!!!!!!

IF YOU DON'T PASS THIS ON TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS, TOMORROW AT 11:30 AM YOU WILL RECEIVE THREE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ABSOLUTELY FREE.
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