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Old January 25th, 2008, 07:48 AM   #161
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Hm....Here we go.

First off, He's God. We're human. From my Point of view, how can the Created understand the Creator? We can try, but I'm sure no human will be right.

God knows what's going to happen. However, what leads us either way (Heaven or Hell) Is our choice. God has chosen to not have control on our Choices. Our choices are what take us To Heaven or Hell, Not God. He can See what we're going to do and Judging by if we follow his will or not is our choice. Once we do decide to follow his will is when he can invade our lives and Better us. I think it would suck to be God. To know even before a child is born what he/she's Going to do in their life and were they will end up and not be able to change their heart. Not because he can't, but because he chooses to let them live their lives.

To answer the "why do the saved try and save people" question.
Same reason, God uses us to speak to his lost. He can use us to Influence that decision. Confused yet? I am.

OH, and I'd rather not start a Thread on This because it makes my head hurt. IT took me way too long for me to think this and type it.

I'm going to bed, My brain is tired.
Okay, in response to your 'First': I agree, so who are all of you to tell us what he intended? Mr. Toes' argument that the bible must be taken literally is further supported by your argument AND mine.

If god knows what's going to happen, it's not our choice anymore. It may appear to we primitive beings that still need a god that we made a choice, however that is what was laid out for us all along, so it really wasn't a choice.

So if god uses the 'saved' to try to influence our decisions, and there is a possiblity that we will choose differently, then following that logic he really doesn't know WHAT we'll decide. I really wish you would make up your mind.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 08:53 AM   #162
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Hm....Here we go.

First off, He's God. We're human. From my Point of view, how can the Created understand the Creator? We can try, but I'm sure no human will be right.

God knows what's going to happen. However, what leads us either way (Heaven or Hell) Is our choice. God has chosen to not have control on our Choices. Our choices are what take us To Heaven or Hell, Not God. He can See what we're going to do and Judging by if we follow his will or not is our choice. Once we do decide to follow his will is when he can invade our lives and Better us. I think it would suck to be God. To know even before a child is born what he/she's Going to do in their life and were they will end up and not be able to change their heart. Not because he can't, but because he chooses to let them live their lives.

To answer the "why do the saved try and save people" question.
Same reason, God uses us to speak to his lost. He can use us to Influence that decision. Confused yet? I am.

OH, and I'd rather not start a Thread on This because it makes my head hurt. IT took me way too long for me to think this and type it.

I'm going to bed, My brain is tired.
If god knows all this before we are even born then tell me why all the "good" people die young and the "bad" people continue to live? Why does he let crack whores get pregnant? Why does he let Catholic priests who are supposed to be doing "his" work, molest little kids? and let the church hide these facts? Why does he let rapists and murder's live after the agony they put other's thru? Why does he allow people to live on the street? How come some are rich and some are poor? If we are supposedly all equal then why don't "he" treat us that way?

I'm sure I can come up with more questions for you to answer for me.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 09:38 AM   #163
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If god knows all this before we are even born then tell me why all the "good" people die young and the "bad" people continue to live? Why does he let crack whores get pregnant? Why does he let Catholic priests who are supposed to be doing "his" work, molest little kids? and let the church hide these facts? Why does he let rapists and murder's live after the agony they put other's thru? Why does he allow people to live on the street? How come some are rich and some are poor? If we are supposedly all equal then why don't "he" treat us that way?

I'm sure I can come up with more questions for you to answer for me.
If it never got cold how would you know warmth? If it never got dark how would you know light? If everthing was good all the time you would not know it because you wouldn't know what bad is.
If we all where treated to the rich everthing goes perfectly life I would call that heaven.
Thats what I shooting for.













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Old January 25th, 2008, 11:08 AM   #164
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If god knows all this before we are even born then tell me why all the "good" people die young and the "bad" people continue to live?
Because we live in a fallen world. God is the author of life and light, not death and darkness.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 12:34 PM   #165
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It seems to me that religion/god has systematically betrayed the idea of meaning and purpose in life, by cheating us with superficiality (certain religions which talk of an actual heaven, therefore this existence lacks meaning, and only the heaven is meaningful), or by construing that true knowledge unattainable (only god knows).

The net product of this is that such deep questions like "why" and "how" have been taken out of human hands and placed onto some high, divine shelf where it is accepted without question, without thought, without, ironically, the same conscious free will they say god gives us. In practice, content and happy are incompatible. Inner peace and knowledge is attained, if you follow the religions strictly, only at the expense of desire and questioning.

The wonder of science comes from its infinitude, and so it is the opposite of contentment - and all the better for it. I, for one, do not want everything wrapped up in a neat little box for me. Besides, what if you were given the wrong box? It doesn't sound to me like ANY of you have questioned whether or not you are following the CORRECT religion. After all, Muslims believe in one god, heaven, Jesus, etc. yet I hear christians (usually the ones that don't know squate about them) put them down all the time. I bet most of you didn't even KNOW that Muslims believe in Jesus.





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Old January 25th, 2008, 04:22 PM   #166
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Inner peace and knowledge is attained, if you follow the religions strictly, only at the expense of desire and questioning.
There are secret things that belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29)

Inner peace isn't obtained by understanding how the creator created, it's obtained by being reconciled to God through his son.

This is the peace that passes knowledge.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 06:01 PM   #167
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It seems to me that religion/god has systematically betrayed the idea of meaning and purpose in life, by cheating us with superficiality (certain religions which talk of an actual heaven, therefore this existence lacks meaning, and only the heaven is meaningful), or by construing that true knowledge unattainable (only god knows).

The net product of this is that such deep questions like "why" and "how" have been taken out of human hands and placed onto some high, divine shelf where it is accepted without question, without thought, without, ironically, the same conscious free will they say god gives us. In practice, content and happy are incompatible. Inner peace and knowledge is attained, if you follow the religions strictly, only at the expense of desire and questioning.

The wonder of science comes from its infinitude, and so it is the opposite of contentment - and all the better for it. I, for one, do not want everything wrapped up in a neat little box for me. Besides, what if you were given the wrong box? It doesn't sound to me like ANY of you have questioned whether or not you are following the CORRECT religion. After all, Muslims believe in one god, heaven, Jesus, etc. yet I hear christians (usually the ones that don't know squate about them) put them down all the time. I bet most of you didn't even KNOW that Muslims believe in Jesus.





The Phantom's Evil Twin is interested in all religions.

Obviously I like to hunt so I will use a hunting comparison. The kill does not make the hunt superficial. The kill is the pinnicale of the hunt it is what we strive to attain. The prize does not make the game superficial. The birth does not make the pregnancy superficial. We have true knowledge but we choose not to believe it. We don't know what each other thinks or if you believe in God what God thinks. We also don't know why people do what they do and they (people) don't know why you do what you do. This does not mean we don't have knowledge it means that everbody has their own mind.

Only baffons follow the I don't know it must be Gods will road. We are the rulers of the entire earth and when you choose not to use your brain but to merely say it must be God so I'm not going to do anything you are commiting a huge injustice to God, providing you believe in God.
The why, and how don't always have an answer, and sometimes we don't want to hear the answer, this is true more often than not.
Most of the time the answer requires some self refection and the admitting that you are the cause or a contibuting factor, or the re evaluation of your position on a subject. In other words we make excuses and justify our own short commings. This is especially true when it comes to Christians as they all to often will give a reason why the sin the committed doesn't apply to their situation. I know you didn't want to hear that.

The fact that you don't want everything wrapped neatly supports the game is as relevant as the prize. As far as what Muslims or Hindus believe I don't think that is something that would change what a Christian believes. Muslims believe that Jesus was a Profit, Christians believe he is the Messia it's a little difference. Muslims also believe that if your not a Muslim you are an infidel. It's O.K. to kill infidels. This may be out of context but I'm not finished with the entire book yet, and so far I'm not impressed. But I'll keep reading. While Muslims believe in Jesus as a profit they don't prescribe to his teachings in the same mannor as Christians.














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Old January 25th, 2008, 07:08 PM   #168
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Okay, in response to your 'First': I agree, so who are all of you to tell us what he intended? Mr. Toes' argument that the bible must be taken literally is further supported by your argument AND mine.
What I've said is mostly my OPinion on things. How I've come to explain my surroundings. That's why I always put what I do. Something along the lines of....We're human God's God. What I've said and will say is my own deduction from all the theological debates I've been a part of or just stood back and watched.

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If god knows what's going to happen, it's not our choice anymore. It may appear to we primitive beings that still need a god that we made a choice, however that is what was laid out for us all along, so it really wasn't a choice.

It was a choice. It's one you made or one I made. I'm going to try an analagy.

So, When you're off on the trail you always have the Newbie and the Experienced Driver. Let's say Newbie = Jim Experienced = Zeek (because any old experienced guy should be called Zeek.) You come up to a Mud pit that has Multiple Paths to take. Zeek (being experienced) knows what one will end up were and which one will be Easiest. Jim has no idea and just goes for it. He Gets stuck in the middle and hydro locked his engine. He's Screwed. Not only is it mud, but the nasty, I think it may have poo in it, Mud. During the Getting stuck project Zeek breaks out the Waders and the winch cable and is ready and waiting for Jim. Zeek knew what was goign to happen but It is not, in any way, his fault that Jim is stuck.

In this Case who's fault is it that Jim is Stuck? Did Jimmy boy take the time to listen to Zeek? No. Did He stay back and let Zeek go first to show the way? No. Is it Zeek's Fault that JIm is stuck? No. Jim made the Choice by himself and didn't head any warning or advice from some one that knows the outcome. So, If God Knows the out come, and you screw up, how is it his fault? You made the Choice to not follow him. He doesn't Say your going to hell or heaven or not at birth. He can just see what choices you are going to make. Hope that make alittle more sense.

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So if god uses the 'saved' to try to influence our decisions, and there is a possiblity that we will choose differently, then following that logic he really doesn't know WHAT we'll decide. I really wish you would make up your mind.

I don't see how that's different? If I come up to you and share the Gospel, that is one point in our lives that both of us have to make a Choice. It's your choice to accept or reject. It's still your Choice. It's my Choice to Follow that Calling to Share or not to share. And we can do either because of Free will. God knows what you're Decision will be, but it's up to you to make that Choice.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 07:35 PM   #169
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If god knows all this before we are even born then tell me why all the "good" people die young and the "bad" people continue to live? Why does he let crack whores get pregnant? Why does he let Catholic priests who are supposed to be doing "his" work, molest little kids? and let the church hide these facts? Why does he let rapists and murder's live after the agony they put other's thru? Why does he allow people to live on the street? How come some are rich and some are poor? If we are supposedly all equal then why don't "he" treat us that way?

I'm sure I can come up with more questions for you to answer for me.
Good/Bad people Dieing = That's just life. I know Plenty of Good People that live a very long time on earth.

Why does he let crack whores get pregnant? Being a Crack whore is, in the end, a choice they made. Sure, they could have lived in a Horrible family, but who's choice was it to have that child in the first place.

Why does he let Catholic priests who are supposed to be doing "his" work, molest little kids? and let the church hide these facts? Because he's a HOrrible Wicked God that sent his Son to die for us. [/Sarcasm] Because those Priest are fallen children of God and have been decieved by the devil. Priests are not perfect ( I know, I lived with a pastor for 18 years) Maybe CHoices the Catholic Church made to not keep thier Priests accountable to other priests, and Making sure they are staying in the will Of God.

Why does he let rapists and murder's live after the agony they put other's thru? Fallen Culture. They'll be Judged by God. Just Wait till they die.

Why does he allow people to live on the street? How come some are rich and some are poor? Because Life happens and, for the most part, It's Choices those people made.

If we are supposedly all equal then why don't "he" treat us that way? Ever think that he does but some of us are more Self Centered then others and think we deserve more? We don't deserve Jack for what we've done, but he still sent his son for every single one of us. Pretty fair to me.

I dislike people that bring up this as a "smoke Screen". It's not God's Fault that we mess up every day, Stop blaming him for crap that we do. The more and more I debate this subject I realize how much it would suck to be God and see all the crap we put him through. We deny his Existance, then we blame him for every single bad thing that happens, when in all reality it's our own faults for ignoring his word. We Don't want him to have any control of our lifes, yet at the same time we blame him for not controlling things like Rapists, murder, and the like. You can't have both, so stop trying.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 08:04 PM   #170
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Good/Bad people Dieing = That's just life. I know Plenty of Good People that live a very long time on earth.

Why does he let crack whores get pregnant? Being a Crack whore is, in the end, a choice they made. Sure, they could have lived in a Horrible family, but who's choice was it to have that child in the first place.

Why does he let Catholic priests who are supposed to be doing "his" work, molest little kids? and let the church hide these facts? Because he's a HOrrible Wicked God that sent his Son to die for us. [/Sarcasm] Because those Priest are fallen children of God and have been decieved by the devil. Priests are not perfect ( I know, I lived with a pastor for 18 years) Maybe CHoices the Catholic Church made to not keep thier Priests accountable to other priests, and Making sure they are staying in the will Of God.

Why does he let rapists and murder's live after the agony they put other's thru? Fallen Culture. They'll be Judged by God. Just Wait till they die.

Why does he allow people to live on the street? How come some are rich and some are poor? Because Life happens and, for the most part, It's Choices those people made.

If we are supposedly all equal then why don't "he" treat us that way? Ever think that he does but some of us are more Self Centered then others and think we deserve more? We don't deserve Jack for what we've done, but he still sent his son for every single one of us. Pretty fair to me.

I dislike people that bring up this as a "smoke Screen". It's not God's Fault that we mess up every day, Stop blaming him for crap that we do. The more and more I debate this subject I realize how much it would suck to be God and see all the crap we put him through. We deny his Existance, then we blame him for every single bad thing that happens, when in all reality it's our own faults for ignoring his word. We Don't want him to have any control of our lifes, yet at the same time we blame him for not controlling things like Rapists, murder, and the like. You can't have both, so stop trying.
I don't blame god for my choices. I have yet to see any actual proof, only belief that there is a god. And what makes your god the only "real" god? Isn't that saying that all other people's religion is based on lies? I make up my own mind and have made many good and not so good choices in my life. I deal with the choices I've made and do my best to be the best person I can.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 08:57 PM   #171
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I don't blame god for my choices. I have yet to see any actual proof, only belief that there is a god. And what makes your god the only "real" god? Isn't that saying that all other people's religion is based on lies? I make up my own mind and have made many good and not so good choices in my life. I deal with the choices I've made and do my best to be the best person I can.
I have yet to see any proof that the Big bang actually happened, only belief (Speculation) that it happened. It comes down to Faith in both situations.

On another note, I'm glad you don't blame God for your choices. I just posted that because most of those questions do just that. My God is the real God because that is what I believe. The only way to find out is to Die. I don't want to yet. And, In Christian Opinion, all other religions are Based on Lies. Yes.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 09:02 PM   #172
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I have yet to see any proof that the Big bang actually happened, only belief (Speculation) that it happened. It comes down to Faith in both situations.

On another note, I'm glad you don't blame God for your choices. I just posted that because most of those questions do just that. My God is the real God because that is what I believe. The only way to find out is to Die. I don't want to yet. And, In Christian Opinion, all other religions are Based on Lies. Yes.
You just summed up this whole thread right there! It's all based on your faith and beliefs, and no one really knows what is the truth!
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Old January 25th, 2008, 09:57 PM   #173
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It seems to me that religion/god has systematically betrayed the idea of meaning and purpose in life, by cheating us with superficiality (certain religions which talk of an actual heaven, therefore this existence lacks meaning, and only the heaven is meaningful), or by construing that true knowledge unattainable (only god knows).
:-D I disagree. For most people that believe thier faith gives them purpose in life. A little something The Author Of Ecclesiastes noted. (2:17-26)

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17 So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 18 I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. 19 And who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have control over all the work into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. This too is meaningless. 20 So my heart began to despair over all my toilsome labor under the sun. 21 For a man may do his work with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then he must leave all he owns to someone who has not worked for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune. 22 What does a man get for all the toil and anxious striving with which he labors under the sun? 23 All his days his work is pain and grief; even at night his mind does not rest. This too is meaningless.

24 A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, 25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? 26 To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
Good stuff.
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The net product of this is that such deep questions like "why" and "how" have been taken out of human hands and placed onto some high, divine shelf where it is accepted without question, without thought, without, ironically, the same conscious free will they say god gives us. In practice, content and happy are incompatible. Inner peace and knowledge is attained, if you follow the religions strictly, only at the expense of desire and questioning.
I'm not going to speak for any body else, but I always Question my Religion. Jesus Says to be like Children. In this, Children are like Sponges, the soak up information. They then use this Info. to learn. I'm willing to listen to any argument and put it up towards my current faith structure. Nothing has won against it. And I thank you for Strengthening my Faith and bringing a Different point of View. My question is can most non-believers say the same about their postion? Are they willing to listen and seriously consider changing? Or do they just clam up, and say they don't need to think about it?



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The wonder of science comes from its infinitude, and so it is the opposite of contentment - and all the better for it. I, for one, do not want everything wrapped up in a neat little box for me. Besides, what if you were given the wrong box? It doesn't sound to me like ANY of you have questioned whether or not you are following the CORRECT religion. After all, Muslims believe in one god, heaven, Jesus, etc. yet I hear christians (usually the ones that don't know squate about them) put them down all the time. I bet most of you didn't even KNOW that Muslims believe in Jesus.
They do Believe Jesus was a Prophet, but not The son of God. That's a big problem for Christians. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Muslims believe in the same God as Christianity (or Jews, then Christians). The God Of Abraham? After Abraham is were that splits. Correct?
As far as as the neat little box.....Um....You've been Debating with us for that past week or so. What makes you think it's a Neat little box? It's A Horrible Mess. Hundreds of Denominations, different Sects....yeah, It's a mess.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 11:18 PM   #174
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The net product of this is that such deep questions like "why" and "how" have been taken out of human hands and placed onto some high, divine shelf where it is accepted without question, without thought, without, ironically, the same conscious free will they say god gives us.

The bible addresses both the "why" and the "how".

The why is fellowship which is only meaningful if it's by choice (hence free will) and the how is through the narrow path of Jesus Christ.

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Muslims believe in one god, heaven, Jesus, etc. yet I hear Christians (usually the ones that don't know squat about them) put them down all the time. I bet most of you didn't even KNOW that Muslims believe in Jesus.
I do know that Muslims believe in Jesus. They believe that he existed and also believe that he hasn't yet died (which of course means they also don't believe he resurrected).

I think if we systematically examine religions and rule them out one by one we'll be left with only three that could be legitimate. Judaism, Christianity, and Mohamidism.

Muslims don't serve a God of miracles and they never know if they've been justified. How much better it is to serve a God that performs miracles and has told you via his word (the bible) that you have been justified to him if you accept his son.
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Old January 26th, 2008, 05:03 PM   #175
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The bible addresses both the "why" and the "how".

The why is fellowship which is only meaningful if it's by choice (hence free will) and the how is through the narrow path of Jesus Christ.
If it is "free will" how come everybody tries to cram the bible down my throat? Isn't it also free will for me to believe the way I want?
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Old January 26th, 2008, 05:18 PM   #176
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I have yet to see any proof that the Big bang actually happened, only belief (Speculation) that it happened. It comes down to Faith in both situations.

On another note, I'm glad you don't blame God for your choices. I just posted that because most of those questions do just that. My God is the real God because that is what I believe. The only way to find out is to Die. I don't want to yet. And, In Christian Opinion, all other religions are Based on Lies. Yes.
Who is to say your bible and your ways are the correct one? Doesn't every religion "believe" that they have the correct following? How do you know Muslim is not the "correct" religion?

I'm still not convinced that there is a god, yours or theirs. I'm just trying to make the point that everyones bible is based off belief, not factual events.
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Old January 26th, 2008, 06:54 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by 71jeepster View Post
Who is to say your bible and your ways are the correct one? Doesn't every religion "believe" that they have the correct following? How do you know Muslim is not the "correct" religion?

I'm still not convinced that there is a god, yours or theirs. I'm just trying to make the point that everyones bible is based off belief, not factual events.
Yeah, I get what your saying. And It's a Good point that most Christians do not think about. At this Current time in my life, Christianity is the one that makes the most sense to me. It encompasses alot of the Core Values other religion have, while being the only one that Offers Salvation through a Savior and not through works alone. LIke I've said before, I'm open to listen and Put my current faith structure up to another and Seriously Consider Change. And Also, LIke I've said before, How many Non-believers are willing to listen and Change in that manner? Many Clam up and Say they don't need it, Not even listening to another point of view. And this isn't a Personal thing, Just a Question out there.
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Old January 26th, 2008, 07:43 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Yeah, I get what your saying. And It's a Good point that most Christians do not think about. At this Current time in my life, Christianity is the one that makes the most sense to me. It encompasses alot of the Core Values other religion have, while being the only one that Offers Salvation through a Savior and not through works alone. LIke I've said before, I'm open to listen and Put my current faith structure up to another and Seriously Consider Change. And Also, LIke I've said before, How many Non-believers are willing to listen and Change in that manner? Many Clam up and Say they don't need it, Not even listening to another point of view. And this isn't a Personal thing, Just a Question out there.
Yeah I see what your saying too, I have a buddy that is origionally from Alabama, and his dad is a Baptist minister, priest, what ever they call them. We've had this discussion many times. He's thinking of taking over his dad's congregation when he retires. And this guy is the biggest man whore you'll ever meet! Super nice guy and you'd never know he's a preacher's son, thinking of doing it himself!
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Old January 27th, 2008, 06:37 PM   #179
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Wow, I go away for a little while and all this response....

So if I udnerstand you all correctly:

1. Your god knows what choices I am going to make.
2. If he knows what choices I am going to make before I am born, then I am not excercising free will, because he already knew what it was going to be. It may have FELT like free will, but it was predestined. Nothing predestined can be altered. That's the definition of predestiny.
3. If I can't excercise free will and surprise your god with a decision he didn't already know I would make, then all the missionary work in the world won't save my godless arse. I'm doomed. Thanks alot there god buddy. Didn't even give me a chance.
4. Since I know that you will now turn around and tell me how I CAN make my own decisions, you will AGAIN prove me right by proving:
a) That your god is not omnipotent, and
b) you change the argument 180 degrees when it suits you, and
c) you are so arrogant as to think that you can explain what your god is thinking, even though just a couple of posts ago you said no one could.

The big difference with science, nonbelievers, and agnostics, is that we say that we don't know the answers. Many of us live that way because we aren't satisfied with ANY of the bibles, scientific theories (I have numerous issues with the Big Bang Theory), and all the other explanations that are ALL being provided by mere humans that are no more qualified than you or I. Just because you say your bible is true doesn't mean it is. You just BELIVE it is. I don't, so reading it again won't do any more good than it did before.
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Old January 27th, 2008, 06:40 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
What I've said is mostly my OPinion on things. How I've come to explain my surroundings. That's why I always put what I do. Something along the lines of....We're human God's God. What I've said and will say is my own deduction from all the theological debates I've been a part of or just stood back and watched.




It was a choice. It's one you made or one I made. I'm going to try an analagy.

So, When you're off on the trail you always have the Newbie and the Experienced Driver. Let's say Newbie = Jim Experienced = Zeek (because any old experienced guy should be called Zeek.) You come up to a Mud pit that has Multiple Paths to take. Zeek (being experienced) knows what one will end up were and which one will be Easiest. Jim has no idea and just goes for it. He Gets stuck in the middle and hydro locked his engine. He's Screwed. Not only is it mud, but the nasty, I think it may have poo in it, Mud. During the Getting stuck project Zeek breaks out the Waders and the winch cable and is ready and waiting for Jim. Zeek knew what was goign to happen but It is not, in any way, his fault that Jim is stuck.

In this Case who's fault is it that Jim is Stuck? Did Jimmy boy take the time to listen to Zeek? No. Did He stay back and let Zeek go first to show the way? No. Is it Zeek's Fault that JIm is stuck? No. Jim made the Choice by himself and didn't head any warning or advice from some one that knows the outcome. So, If God Knows the out come, and you screw up, how is it his fault? You made the Choice to not follow him. He doesn't Say your going to hell or heaven or not at birth. He can just see what choices you are going to make. Hope that make alittle more sense.




I don't see how that's different? If I come up to you and share the Gospel, that is one point in our lives that both of us have to make a Choice. It's your choice to accept or reject. It's still your Choice. It's my Choice to Follow that Calling to Share or not to share. And we can do either because of Free will. God knows what you're Decision will be, but it's up to you to make that Choice.
First of all, Zeek (your god) isn't coming back to rescue me if I didn't choose what he wants me to choose.

Second of all, according to all of you, he already KNEW that I was going to choose that, so why did he lead me there in the first place? Seems like a waste of BOTH of our time to me.
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