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Old January 22nd, 2008, 04:04 PM   #101
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Off the top of my head? Matthew 4:18-22 - Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother are fisherman (not educated, especially back then), and James son of Zebedee and his brother John, also fishermen, same issue. Need more?





The Phantoms Evil Twin says "He-e-e-e-e-e-r-e fishy-fishy-fishy.

What about Paul? did you ever dictate a letter? does that mean you didn't write it or it isn't your letter?
Fishermen can talk while others write.
Non of them knew english even the scolars.


Hey I just thought of something, does this mean that any scientific discovery that is made by a non english speaking and writing scientist isn't valid since we can't make accurate translations.
I always thought there was something wrong with the science community.












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Old January 22nd, 2008, 04:34 PM   #102
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The Phantom say's double Booyah ta You ahh

And so we circle again. Point-by-point:

"You are making the presumption that the metaphoric phases are to be taken literally. A guy told me one time when we where discussing Genisis that"There is nothing to state there were others that were created." and " You are adding something that is not there" and "Untill you find it you need to go with what is in there." That would have been you." ~~~ Yes, that was me, but I thought you wanted me to believe the Adam and Eve story and all that....? Wouldn't I have to take it literally to then 'believe' it?

"It seems to me that if you believe something is a metaphoric phrase than to presume the author meant it literally would be adding something that isn't there. This would be a contradiction of you own position." ~~~ Yes, it would be, if that's what I thought, but as I suggested above, how can you say WHEN it should be taken literally, and when it should be taken as a metaphor? Who endowed you or any other mortal with the power to differentiate? What if someone disagrees? Who is right? Only those that agree with you?

"I think to this day we use the phrase, ends of the earth, I don't think it's flat, sail to the corners of the earth, surface of a garment (on a girls nice round butt) thats not flat. Some people might say I have a flat head, but my hat will still fit a round one and to remove that cover and shake it clean would make perfect sense to me. Of coarse this again would be adding something." ~~~ No, saying that god said to shake the COVER over the earth would be adding something. He said to shake the earth. You are using your head as the round earth, and your hat as the thing shaken. Aren't you adding something there?

"Have you heard someone say the sun moving through the sky or setting in the horizon. Do you tell them they are wrong the the earth is actually moving not the sun." ~~~ Not as long as they don't insist that it's actually true, but then no one would do something as dumb as that, now would they?

"I think the flat earth and no body knowing if the earth is flat round or pear shaped is something that has no value to either point of view.
We believe the earth is round because someone told us that, my name is Thomas you know the doubting one." ~~~ We have photographs taken from space. Since my grandmother retired from NASA and my mother and 2 aunts from Lockheed Missles and Space Corp., I'm pretty confident that the photos are legit, but I will be happy to debate that too if you like.

"Ithink you are clear as to your beliefs and I don't think that I could discuss Hindu, Muslim, or other religions I don't believe in because I don't study them. So unless you start ripping some Coran stuff off I think I know where you stand." ~~~ I'm sorry to hear that a guy with such impressive debate skills has limited himself to a narrow study. Theology in general is quite fascinating. How do you know you don't believe in them if you don't know anything about them?



New question: What if I were Buddhist? Will I burn in hell for not accepting your religion? What about the Muslims. Them too? Guess what, they believe in one god, creation, and Jesus too! They call him Isa bin Maryam—"Jesus son of Mary". Check some of their text:

Holy Qur’an 19:22-24—"And she conceived him, and retired with him to a far-off place. She said: ‘Oh, would that I had died before this, and been a thing forgotten, forgotten quite!’ And one cried to her from below her: ‘Grieve not thou, thy Lord have provided a streamlet at thy feet; and shake the trunk of the palm tree toward thee: It will drop fresh ripe dates upon thee; eat and drink and be of cheerful eye: and should thou see a man, say: verily, I have vowed abstinence to Allah most Merciful. To no one I shall speak this day!’ Then she came with the babe to her people, bearing him. They said: ‘O Mary! Now has thou done a strange thing! O’ sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of wickedness, nor was thy mother unchaste.’ And she was made a sign to them, pointing toward the babe. They said, ‘How shall we speak with him who is in the cradle, an infant?’ He (Jesus) said, ‘Verily I am a servant of Allah (God); He has given me the Book, and He has made me a Prophet (Nabi); And He has made me blessed wherever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer and almsgiving so long as I shall live; and to be dutiful to her that birthed me; and He hath not made me proud, depraved. And the peace of Allah was on me the day I was born, and will be the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised to life.’ This is Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam, A Word of Truth, and which they (vainly) dispute."

Holy Qur’an 23: 50— "And we appointed the son (Jesus) and his mother for a sign: and we prepared an abode in a lofty spot, quiet and watered with springs."

Some Muslim commentators refer to the place of abode as Jerusalem, Damascus, Ramleh, or Bethlehem.

Sounds like you guys might actually have something in common, eh?







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Old January 22nd, 2008, 04:40 PM   #103
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What about Paul? did you ever dictate a letter? does that mean you didn't write it or it isn't your letter?
Fishermen can talk while others write.
Non of them knew english even the scolars.


Hey I just thought of something, does this mean that any scientific discovery that is made by a non english speaking and writing scientist isn't valid since we can't make accurate translations.
I always thought there was something wrong with the science community.



The Phantom say's Something smells fishy in Denmark Splish slpash
I gotta' tell ya' man, you are a BLAST to talk with. We ought to go out and get ourselves thrwon out of someplace nice sometime. They would be closing and we would still be sitting out front debating.

Great point. I have no rebuttle.





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Old January 22nd, 2008, 05:24 PM   #104
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And so we circle again. Point-by-point:

"You are making the presumption that the metaphoric phases are to be taken literally. A guy told me one time when we where discussing Genisis that"There is nothing to state there were others that were created." and " You are adding something that is not there" and "Untill you find it you need to go with what is in there." That would have been you." ~~~ Yes, that was me, but I thought you wanted me to believe the Adam and Eve story and all that....? Wouldn't I have to take it literally to then 'believe' it?

"It seems to me that if you believe something is a metaphoric phrase than to presume the author meant it literally would be adding something that isn't there. This would be a contradiction of you own position." ~~~ Yes, it would be, if that's what I thought, but as I suggested above, how can you say WHEN it should be taken literally, and when it should be taken as a metaphor? Who endowed you or any other mortal with the power to differentiate? What if someone disagrees? Who is right? Only those that agree with you?

"I think to this day we use the phrase, ends of the earth, I don't think it's flat, sail to the corners of the earth, surface of a garment (on a girls nice round butt) thats not flat. Some people might say I have a flat head, but my hat will still fit a round one and to remove that cover and shake it clean would make perfect sense to me. Of coarse this again would be adding something." ~~~ No, saying that god said to shake the COVER over the earth would be adding something. He said to shake the earth. You are using your head as the round earth, and your hat as the thing shaken. Aren't you adding something there?

"Have you heard someone say the sun moving through the sky or setting in the horizon. Do you tell them they are wrong the the earth is actually moving not the sun." ~~~ Not as long as they don't insist that it's actually true, but then no one would do something as dumb as that, now would they?

"I think the flat earth and no body knowing if the earth is flat round or pear shaped is something that has no value to either point of view.
We believe the earth is round because someone told us that, my name is Thomas you know the doubting one." ~~~ We have photographs taken from space. Since my grandmother retired from NASA and my mother and 2 aunts from Lockheed Missles and Space Corp., I'm pretty confident that the photos are legit, but I will be happy to debate that too if you like.

"Ithink you are clear as to your beliefs and I don't think that I could discuss Hindu, Muslim, or other religions I don't believe in because I don't study them. So unless you start ripping some Coran stuff off I think I know where you stand." ~~~ I'm sorry to hear that a guy with such impressive debate skills has limited himself to a narrow study. Theology in general is quite fascinating. How do you know you don't believe in them if you don't know anything about them?



New question: What if I were Buddhist? Will I burn in hell for not accepting your religion? What about the Muslims. Them too? Guess what, they believe in one god, creation, and Jesus too! They call him Isa bin Maryam—"Jesus son of Mary". Check some of their text:

Holy Qur’an 19:22-24—"And she conceived him, and retired with him to a far-off place. She said: ‘Oh, would that I had died before this, and been a thing forgotten, forgotten quite!’ And one cried to her from below her: ‘Grieve not thou, thy Lord have provided a streamlet at thy feet; and shake the trunk of the palm tree toward thee: It will drop fresh ripe dates upon thee; eat and drink and be of cheerful eye: and should thou see a man, say: verily, I have vowed abstinence to Allah most Merciful. To no one I shall speak this day!’ Then she came with the babe to her people, bearing him. They said: ‘O Mary! Now has thou done a strange thing! O’ sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of wickedness, nor was thy mother unchaste.’ And she was made a sign to them, pointing toward the babe. They said, ‘How shall we speak with him who is in the cradle, an infant?’ He (Jesus) said, ‘Verily I am a servant of Allah (God); He has given me the Book, and He has made me a Prophet (Nabi); And He has made me blessed wherever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer and almsgiving so long as I shall live; and to be dutiful to her that birthed me; and He hath not made me proud, depraved. And the peace of Allah was on me the day I was born, and will be the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised to life.’ This is Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam, A Word of Truth, and which they (vainly) dispute."

Holy Qur’an 23: 50— "And we appointed the son (Jesus) and his mother for a sign: and we prepared an abode in a lofty spot, quiet and watered with springs."

Some Muslim commentators refer to the place of abode as Jerusalem, Damascus, Ramleh, or Bethlehem.

Sounds like you guys might actually have something in common, eh?







The Phantoms Evil Twin learns more when he's not preaching.

From start to finish

First Yes you have to take it literally

Second You are correct. The people that agree with me are right. In my mind anyway.

Third I did add something as I stated " Of coarse than I would be adding something"

Fourth The scripture you quoted never insisted the earth was flat that was presumption.

Fifth Lockheed is very close to Lockness, they have pictures also. My point is we have to choose what to believe or what we are taught. I have an uncle that is still at NASA and he say's they never left the earth, and the earth is like an IHOP pancake. He has photos also but there not real clear cause there taken from Santas Sleigh. My point is what do you believe?

Sixth I'm still not comfortable saying I know about Christianity to the point I have started studing other beliefs. To debate them would be suicide but i'll try.

Seventh If you where Buddist I don't know if you would burn in hell because I have a plank in my eye.

Eighth The passages from the Qur'an are not accurate due to our inability to translate accurately.















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Old January 22nd, 2008, 05:48 PM   #105
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From start to finish

First Yes you have to take it literally

Second You are correct. The people that agree with me are right. In my mind anyway.

Third I did add something as I stated " Of coarse than I would be adding something"

Fourth The scripture you quoted never insisted the earth was flat that was presumption.

Fifth Lockheed is very close to Lockness, they have pictures also. My point is we have to choose what to believe or what we are taught. I have an uncle that is still at NASA and he say's they never left the earth, and the earth is like an IHOP pancake. He has photos also but there not real clear cause there taken from Santas Sleigh. My point is what do you believe?

Sixth I'm still not comfortable saying I know about Christianity to the point I have started studing other beliefs. To debate them would be suicide but i'll try.

Seventh If you where Buddist I don't know if you would burn in hell because I have a plank in my eye.

Eighth The passages from the Qur'an are not accurate due to our inability to translate accurately.


The Phantom puts a double BOYAH on himself as he is at a disadvantage.
Tit for tat:

First: All of it?

Second: How can I be "right" if I didn't make a statement, but asked a question? Who is right?

Third: If you have to take it literally, why would you then add something? Shouldn't the text, taken literally, stand as evidently true all on its own?

Fourht: Where did I say it was "insisted"? Didn't you notice that I used the word "implied"?

Fifth: Finally, someone has actually asked me what I believe! Or was it a rhetorical queston and that you believe you already know what I believe?

Sixth: Why do you have to be 'comfortable' with your knowledge of christianity before you can learn about what others believe?

Seventh: Well, the thread was intended to debate the bible as you suggested, so can't you just open it up and tell us what it says? Isn't there anyone out there that can tell us?

Eighth: So does your logic imply that the bible can't be accurate due to all the translations?





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Old January 22nd, 2008, 07:24 PM   #106
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Tit for tat:

First: All of it?

Second: How can I be "right" if I didn't make a statement, but asked a question? Who is right?

Third: If you have to take it literally, why would you then add something? Shouldn't the text, taken literally, stand as evidently true all on its own?

Fourht: Where did I say it was "insisted"? Didn't you notice that I used the word "implied"?

Fifth: Finally, someone has actually asked me what I believe! Or was it a rhetorical queston and that you believe you already know what I believe?

Sixth: Why do you have to be 'comfortable' with your knowledge of christianity before you can learn about what others believe?

Seventh: Well, the thread was intended to debate the bible as you suggested, so can't you just open it up and tell us what it says? Isn't there anyone out there that can tell us?

Eighth: So does your logic imply that the bible can't be accurate due to all the translations?





The Phantoms Evil Twin never underestimates the power of the question.
I had dinner.

First Yes all of it. In context

Second My mistake I thought you where making the statement that if someone agrees with me they are correct. I thought you where becoming The Good Twin Phantom

Third You don't have to add anything that was me adding something in an effort to clairify my position.

Fourth "Not as long as they don't insist" That was from you.

Fifth I'm The Phantom I know what you believe. You believe in stimulating debate. You believe that knowledge is a never ending growth in life. You believe that all problems are simple to resolve but we make them complicated by believing we have the answer without the knowledge. You believe that while you know you have more knowledge on a subject you will listen to a less educated opinion in the chance you will learn something.

Sixth I need to take one step at a time. Thats me. Confidence issues.

Seventh The Bible opens itself to who ever looks to see what it say's

Eighth That wasn't my logic that was in the previous comments by someone else.

Nineth I'm going to whip out some Federal Court Rules or Specifications on a Sewer treatment plant, or some GIA certificate requirements for jewelry to redirect you. Maybe some wetland plant classifications? What sucks is I get out an old fashion book to check this I'm not up to computer speed yet.













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Old January 22nd, 2008, 07:27 PM   #107
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Cool But he didn't say to shake out the hat, he said to shake out the earth (equivalent to the head in your argument).

Job 38:13 speaks of dawn grasping the earth by its "ends" and shaking the wicked out of it. The picture is metaphorical, comparing the earth to a blanket or garment picked up at one end and shaken. This is immediately followed by the depiction of the earth as a clay tablet, whose surface is changed by the seal which is pressed on (or rolled across) it. After which, its "features stand out like those of a garment." Those two verses employ three flat metaphors for the earth, all in a row!


grabbing the "ends of the earth" like it was a blanket or garment being shaken;

a (flat) clay tablet; and

a (flat) surface of a garment whose color or pattern stands out.

The author of Job also implies that the earth is flat in other passages. For instance, "(God's) measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea," "Who stretched the line on (the earth)?", and, "He looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens (Job 11:9, 38:5, and 28:24)".

Not to forget all the other verses in Job that depict stars moving instead of the earth: God "leads forth" the constellations in "their season," instead of "leading forth" the earth in "its season." (Job 38:32) Therefore, all available evidence points to the author of Job viewing the earth as immobile...and flat.

T.V..... Please.







The Phantom's Evil Twin says: BOOYAH!!!
Isaiah 40:22 KJV
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 07:33 PM   #108
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Hey back to eigth. New translations of old languages are less likely to be as accurate as translations done when the language was still in use.

That was something you said.



You old trickerer...






motnahP ehT
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 09:32 PM   #109
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Man there is a lot of bs restating the same thing here! The Bible is a book, written by people and interpreted by people. Christianity is a "belief" no different then Muslim, Buddhism, or any other religion. If the Bible was a non fictional book then there would be no openness for interpretation and we would still be studying the old testament. And if that's the case women would have to remain in hiding while having their period and not show their face until they stop bleeding! We would also still be stoning people to death for their wrong doings. Anyway you look at it religion is based on belief, not facts! That's my opinion.

I have another question for everyone trying to beat religion and the Bible down peoples throat. We can prove that dinosaurs roamed the Earth millions of years ago. Why can't anything written in the Bible that was written 2000 years ago be proven? A prime example and probably the easiest to find and prove would be Noah's Ark! That thing would have to be huge, but yet there is no trace of it!

Don't get me wrong, religion is great and some people would be on a very bad track if it wasn't for it. But this is just my .02
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 11:40 PM   #110
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New translations of old languages are less likely to be as accurate as translations done when the language was still in use.
Which translation does not have Jesus Christ laying down his life as the guiltless offering for our sins? Which translation doesn't detail the life of love and compassion that Jesus lived?

A few words written thousands of years ago not clearly declaring the Earth to be circular .. Is that really what's preventing people from trying to emulate Jesus?
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 05:56 AM   #111
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...

I have another question for everyone trying to beat religion and the Bible down peoples throat. We can prove that dinosaurs roamed the Earth millions of years ago. Why can't anything written in the Bible that was written 2000 years ago be proven? A prime example and probably the easiest to find and prove would be Noah's Ark! That thing would have to be huge, but yet there is no trace of it!

Don't get me wrong, religion is great and some people would be on a very bad track if it wasn't for it. But this is just my .02
What makes you so sure that the earth is millions of years old? I can show to you evidence, historical and scientific, that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. The reason why you do not hear much about it is probably because it does not support the evolution theory, it does not make it plausible.
Yes, the Ark is reported to be on a mountain in Turkey. The historian Joesephus wrote that people of his day knew where it was. But even if they did find it many would explain it away.
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 06:48 AM   #112
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What makes you so sure that the earth is millions of years old? I can show to you evidence, historical and scientific, that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. The reason why you do not hear much about it is probably because it does not support the evolution theory, it does not make it plausible.
Yes, the Ark is reported to be on a mountain in Turkey. The historian Joesephus wrote that people of his day knew where it was. But even if they did find it many would explain it away.
So your saying that carbon dating is wrong? Let's see your proof that the Earth is less then 10000 years old. I'm gonna guess that your listening to a Christian scientist that is trying to prove that the Bible is based off real events!

I saw the report on the ark, it's based off a satellite image of something that "looks" like it could be the ark! But there is still no proof that it is real.

If the Bible is a literal book why are there so many versions and interpretations of it?
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:21 AM   #113
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So your saying that carbon dating is wrong? Let's see your proof that the Earth is less then 10000 years old. I'm gonna guess that your listening to a Christian scientist that is trying to prove that the Bible is based off real events!

I saw the report on the ark, it's based off a satellite image of something that "looks" like it could be the ark! But there is still no proof that it is real.

If the Bible is a literal book why are there so many versions and interpretations of it?
You mean this one?

Some Experts

According to ABC News: "Some experts think that" this satellite photograph "may be of Noah's Ark." Who are these experts? It just looks like a blob to me, but then I'm no expert! Only one "expert" is mentioned: an assistant professor at the University of Richmond. Is he an expert photographic analyst? An archaeologist, perhaps? A geologist, even? Or, maybe an expert on ships? No, he's an expert on national security law! Maybe it is just a blob, after all.

Source: "Satellite May Have Found Noah's Ark", ABC News, 3/15/2006
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:23 AM   #114
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Which translation does not have Jesus Christ laying down his life as the guiltless offering for our sins? Which translation doesn't detail the life of love and compassion that Jesus lived?

A few words written thousands of years ago not clearly declaring the Earth to be circular .. Is that really what's preventing people from trying to emulate Jesus?
Well, you and Mr. Toes should chat, because he clearly states that we need to take all of the bile literally, so we do, and you correct us. We don't, and he corrects us. So what's it going to be guys?
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:32 AM   #115
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Which translation does not have Jesus Christ laying down his life as the guiltless offering for our sins? Which translation doesn't detail the life of love and compassion that Jesus lived?

A few words written thousands of years ago not clearly declaring the Earth to be circular .. Is that really what's preventing people from trying to emulate Jesus?
I don't recall any conversation pro or con about emulating anyone? Why do you think that is the issue here? We are just debating scripture. Something the apologists having doing amongst themselves for centuries (i.e. Ecumenical Council).

Since you bring it up though I'll take it as a question and respond: I am not looking to emulate anyone. I understand right from wrong, and not from any bible teachings. I learned these things from watching and learning from the world around me. My home was a piece of crap, so I didn't get much training there. I learned it on my own, and learned it well without the aid of the bible, or even knowing the ten commandments until much later in life when I decided to learn about theology (not just christiianity).
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:33 AM   #116
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So your saying that carbon dating is wrong? Let's see your proof that the Earth is less then 10000 years old. I'm gonna guess that your listening to a Christian scientist that is trying to prove that the Bible is based off real events!

I saw the report on the ark, it's based off a satellite image of something that "looks" like it could be the ark! But there is still no proof that it is real.

If the Bible is a literal book why are there so many versions and interpretations of it?
Carbon dating does not tell us how old the earth is, it only is data that is open to interpretation.
How else could we come up with an alternative? Do you really think an atheistic evolution believing scientist is gonna even consider that the earth is less than ten thousand years old? No way! That would go against everything he believes. He needs the earth to be billions of years old in order to make his theory more plausible.
Yeah, it'd be cool if they were able to find the ark but we don't need that to show that the bible is true.
Matthew 12:38-40
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:33 AM   #117
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Man there is a lot of bs restating the same thing here! The Bible is a book, written by people and interpreted by people. Christianity is a "belief" no different then Muslim, Buddhism, or any other religion. If the Bible was a non fictional book then there would be no openness for interpretation and we would still be studying the old testament. And if that's the case women would have to remain in hiding while having their period and not show their face until they stop bleeding! We would also still be stoning people to death for their wrong doings. Anyway you look at it religion is based on belief, not facts! That's my opinion.

I have another question for everyone trying to beat religion and the Bible down peoples throat. We can prove that dinosaurs roamed the Earth millions of years ago. Why can't anything written in the Bible that was written 2000 years ago be proven? A prime example and probably the easiest to find and prove would be Noah's Ark! That thing would have to be huge, but yet there is no trace of it!

Don't get me wrong, religion is great and some people would be on a very bad track if it wasn't for it. But this is just my

Well, the reason we don't follow the Old testemt rules is because those were meant for The Jews. Not the Gentiles. If you are jewish and do not believe in the Jesus Story then Realistically you should be following these rules. Jesus Came into the world to make salvation available to Jew and Gentile. I completely agree with the bible being a book, and most of the time you have to read the whole book to understand it. Not saying I've read the whole book, but I've come pretty close. I mean I'm 22, I've been in church my whole life. I've been to countless bible studies. And I've studied it my self. NOt to boast, but I know it pretty well.

Kent HOvind is a Christian Scientist who proves the flood happened. Now, will any body non christian listen to him? NO. Is he in jail for Tax evasion? Yes. The only reason he is in jail is because he doesn't pay taxes to a government that pays to teach only one single point of view of the begining of the world. [Rant] Think about it, I spent a whole week on evoultion in High school and was read a Single paragraph about creationism. And they call us Closed minded. I listen to non-believing scientists as well as believing ones and for the most part agree with biology, Chemistry, and even micro evoultion. Just not Macro evoultion. My belief is in Creationism. Others is in Evoultion Sorry, Random Tangent [/RANT]

So, why isn't the ark around anymore? It was made of Wood. What piece of dead wood lasts 2000+ Years? It's Long decomposed. Plus, I'm guessing that they dismantled it and built houses out of it. THat makes sense to me. Were else are you gonna get the wood when you're on top of a mountain in the middle of a Very slowly draining ocean?

Last edited by L4CX; January 23rd, 2008 at 08:38 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:35 AM   #118
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Well, you and Mr. Toes should chat, because he clearly states that we need to take all of the bile literally, so we do, and you correct us. We don't, and he corrects us. So what's it going to be guys?
Sorry. I meant to say bible, not bile.... And that was NOT a Freudian slip, so don't even go there.
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:53 AM   #119
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Carbon dating does not tell us how old the earth is, it only is data that is open to interpretation.
How else could we come up with an alternative? Do you really think an atheistic evolution believing scientist is gonna even consider that the earth is less than ten thousand years old? No way! That would go against everything he believes. He needs the earth to be billions of years old in order to make his theory more plausible.
Yeah, it'd be cool if they were able to find the ark but we don't need that to show that the bible is true.
Matthew 12:38-40
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
It appears that you only go to christian sources for your information (), whereas people like me never stop looking at as many points of view as possible (including yours). If you want us to open our minds to what you are saying (which I have and am), then open yours too and read a little more about carbon dating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating


"Data open to interpretation".....? Kind of like the bible? Not according to Mr. Toes. So how is it that our data is open to interpretation, but yours is not (except when you want to say it is to support your argument)....?


Evolution, natural selection, the Big Bang, etc. are theories and conclusions based on experimentation. I know of no scientist that declares these things as absolute fact, so your theory that they would lie about the age of the earth to support a theory lacks substance. :tonka:

You suggest that scientists are lying, so turn the table and respond to a suggestion that the disciples were lying. Better yet, respond to the suggestion that the CHURCH has been lying all along, that the bible was produced for the masses by a falling Roman Empire (thus the Roman Catholic Church) in order to keep people under their thumb. If you haven't noticed, the Vatican and the Papal hierarchy is nearly identical to that of ancient Rome, AND they live in oppulent wealth while their "herds" live in abject poverty. Hmmmmmmm... Sounds like Rome to me. You know, the empire that crucified Jesus?
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Old January 23rd, 2008, 08:59 AM   #120
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Well, the reason we don't follow the Old testemt rules is because those were meant for The Jews. Not the Gentiles. If you are jewish and do not believe in the Jesus Story then Realistically you should be following these rules. Jesus Came into the world to make salvation available to Jew and Gentile. I completely agree with the bible being a book, and most of the time you have to read the whole book to understand it. Not saying I've read the whole book, but I've come pretty close. I mean I'm 22, I've been in church my whole life. I've been to countless bible studies. And I've studied it my self. NOt to boast, but I know it pretty well.

Kent HOvind is a Christian Scientist who proves the flood happened. Now, will any body non christian listen to him? NO. Is he in jail for Tax evasion? Yes. The only reason he is in jail is because he doesn't pay taxes to a government that pays to teach only one single point of view of the begining of the world. [Rant] Think about it, I spent a whole week on evoultion in High school and was read a Single paragraph about creationism. And they call us Closed minded. I listen to non-believing scientists as well as believing ones and for the most part agree with biology, Chemistry, and even micro evoultion. Just not Macro evoultion. My belief is in Creationism. Others is in Evoultion Sorry, Random Tangent [/RANT]

So, why isn't the ark around anymore? It was made of Wood. What piece of dead wood lasts 2000+ Years? It's Long decomposed. Plus, I'm guessing that they dismantled it and built houses out of it. THat makes sense to me. Were else are you gonna get the wood when you're on top of a mountain in the middle of a Very slowly draining ocean?
Wait a minute... You haven't even READ the bible yet, but you're saying you believe it? :tonka: So you are trying to convince us of the truth of a book that you haven't even read yet?


It doesn't matter WHY Kent Hovind evaded taxes. He evaded them. it's the law. In your christian logic would it be okay for me to murder people if they were sinful? What if I murdered doctors that performed abortions (in righteous indignation, of course). Would that be okay with you? Are crimes commited "in the name of the lord" okay with you, and others not?
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