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Old January 21st, 2008, 05:09 PM   #81
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They wrote the bible with Inspiration from God, it's not like God told them secrets like the world was Round. This is the Third or fourth time I've said this and nobody has answered to it. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN IN A DIFFERENT CULTURE/TIME PERIOD! You failed to mention that the Scientist back then didn't know the world was round either. They Wrote inspired from God in the world they knew. Not writing to you or I in the 21st century....You get it? Or is this post going not answered as well?

Not to mention the fact that most of those verses are Poetic or Speaking of A dream. This is what Mr. Toes means when you take things out of Context.

I'm sure in 2000 years what you think to be Intellecutal and smart will be thought of as knowledge every five year old knows. So....Ya gonna answer this or not?
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Old January 21st, 2008, 07:11 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Infinite_Wisdumb View Post
I love this part of the Bible. First of all, it is demeaning to women and second of all, if a person were cloned from another person they would be identical. Women have XX sex chromosomes, men have XY. Scientific proof of the inaccuracy of the Bible.
It doesn't say "God cloned Adam", it says "God created Eve"

It's only scientific proof if you can disprove it. You cannot disprove that Eve was created by God.
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Old January 21st, 2008, 07:19 PM   #83
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And I noticed your avatar doesn't look very happy lately.....






Does the Phantom need a hug?

NAW I'm good. It was the only toe picture I could find I'll change it in about a week.

















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Old January 21st, 2008, 07:32 PM   #84
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It doesn't say "God cloned Adam", it says "God created Eve"

It's only scientific proof if you can disprove it. You cannot disprove that Eve was created by God.
I agree that Eve was created by God, but she was not created from Adams rib and she was not created to be subservient to Adam. We are all Gods children, right?!
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Old January 21st, 2008, 07:40 PM   #85
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I agree that Eve was created by God, but she was not created from Adams rib and she was not created to be subservient to Adam. We are all Gods children, right?!
She wasn't created from his rib?
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Old January 21st, 2008, 07:45 PM   #86
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Okay, so since god was way ahead of us in science and all that, and the (illiterate) disciples wrote the book based on all this wisdom and know how, why didn't they know that the earth was spherical?

"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)

"The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Job 38:14)

"[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
(Matthew 4:1-12)

"The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth." (Daniel 4:10-11)
O.K. hear we go again. I'm not going to say it's out of context I'll try to give you something on just the parts you quoted witout other parts to clairify.
It's my new angle. Ha ha

First, my head is round and I took off my stocking hat grabbed it by the edges and shook out the evil.

Second God is explaining to Job that he made the earth and can shape the earth as easily as some one can stamp clay.

Third it doesn't say he showed him the entire earth it say's he showed him all the kingdom's. Kinda like a T.V. show Cause God had that before we did too.

Fourth Daniel was describing a dream. And besides I'm not messin with anything Daniel said cause you know all those lions and stuff

And finally Your not quoting King James word for word












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Old January 21st, 2008, 07:51 PM   #87
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She wasn't created from his rib?
Genisis say's and the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and he brought her unto the man.











The Phantom's wife made rib's last night MMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 10:58 AM   #88
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Genesis 2:20-25
20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 11:10 AM   #89
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They wrote the bible with Inspiration from God, it's not like God told them secrets like the world was Round. This is the Third or fourth time I've said this and nobody has answered to it. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN IN A DIFFERENT CULTURE/TIME PERIOD! You failed to mention that the Scientist back then didn't know the world was round either. They Wrote inspired from God in the world they knew. Not writing to you or I in the 21st century....You get it? Or is this post going not answered as well?

Not to mention the fact that most of those verses are Poetic or Speaking of A dream. This is what Mr. Toes means when you take things out of Context.

I'm sure in 2000 years what you think to be Intellecutal and smart will be thought of as knowledge every five year old knows. So....Ya gonna answer this or not?
Great So I guess you'll say that in this case: "[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
(Matthew 4:1-12) The devil was just misleading him.....?

As far as 'scientists' of that day, they never claimed to be informed by the creator.... The (illiterate) disciples did (and magically learned to read and write too!).

You shouldn't speak for Mr. Toes. He is highly capable.








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Old January 22nd, 2008, 11:21 AM   #90
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It doesn't say "God cloned Adam", it says "God created Eve"

It's only scientific proof if you can disprove it. You cannot disprove that Eve was created by God.
Ummmm... Did you ever actually TAKE a science class? It's only 'scientific' proof if you can REPEAT it. Repeatability is the core of scientific EVIDENCE (because in science there is not proof, only evidence).

You see, the difference is that in science we don't claim to know everything, have all the answers, and be able to prove everything. We claim to have drawn many conclusions based on the evidence we have and extensive experimentation to verify that our theories can be substantiated, but ANYONE in science will tell you that there can easily be many differing theories that can be just as well substantiated. The difference is that scientists are willing to consider the possiblity that they are wrong. Crhristians aren't. They just change the rules (quote select versus when it suits them for example, then say skeptics take things out of context by doing the same thing), or insert their own spin on verse that was supposedly written by disciples of christ that were told by christ.

I don't NEED to disprove that Eve was created by god. You are the one making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you, and you can't do it. Quoting your book doesn't prove anything. Nothing.
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 12:30 PM   #91
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Ummmm... Did you ever actually TAKE a science class? It's only 'scientific' proof if you can REPEAT it. Repeatability is the core of scientific EVIDENCE (because in science there is not proof, only evidence).

You see, the difference is that in science we don't claim to know everything, have all the answers, and be able to prove everything. We claim to have drawn many conclusions based on the evidence we have and extensive experimentation to verify that our theories can be substantiated, but ANYONE in science will tell you that there can easily be many differing theories that can be just as well substantiated. The difference is that scientists are willing to consider the possiblity that they are wrong. Crhristians aren't. They just change the rules (quote select versus when it suits them for example, then say skeptics take things out of context by doing the same thing), or insert their own spin on verse that was supposedly written by disciples of christ that were told by christ.

I don't NEED to disprove that Eve was created by god. You are the one making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you, and you can't do it. Quoting your book doesn't prove anything. Nothing.
What does quoting a Medical journal or science book prove?????














Evil does not exist wihtout good The Phantom Scoo whop a doo zis bam buie
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 01:18 PM   #92
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As far as 'scientists' of that day, they never claimed to be informed by the creator.... The (illiterate) disciples did (and magically learned to read and write too!)....
How can you assume that Christ's disciples were illiterate? Paul did have a scribe write for him but it was not because he was uneducated.
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 02:00 PM   #93
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Great So I guess you'll say that in this case: "[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
(Matthew 4:1-12) The devil was just misleading him.....?

As far as 'scientists' of that day, they never claimed to be informed by the creator.... The (illiterate) disciples did (and magically learned to read and write too!).

You shouldn't speak for Mr. Toes. He is highly capable.








The Phantom's evil twin has replied.... happy now?
Not really happy but confused at what the heck you are talking about....That verse is talking about the devil tempting Jesus. He could have been showing him the whole world for all we know (He was one of the most powerful angels in heaven before he fell), Or it could be easier to tell the story that way.

Which leads me to my next point. Nobody said the Disciples physically wrote the books. They probably had someone Scribe it for them. Some were educated and luke was actually a historian of the time. So He most likely could write. You still think that God told them the secrets of the universe and was standing behind thier shoulder saying "oh, put this in" And that is not the case, If you think so, your sadly mistaken and confused. They were inspired by the story of Jesus and thier love for the begining church (And the holy spirit) Most of the new testament are letters written to the early churches to encourage and Teach them. (Most from paul). The disciples are no different then Kerwin, or Mr toes, Or I because we are all believers. We describe things the best we can by using the world around us. I don't have super powers, and neither did the early Disciples.


I'm not speaking for Mr toes, I'm joining in on the Debate, and for some odd reason you don't recognize anybody but Mr Toes. It's true his name is on the Thread so if that's what you want then fine. It makes for a Bit of a Boring thread having two people telling thier points of view. Could almost be Thought as Closed minded.....
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 02:22 PM   #94
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O.K. hear we go again. I'm not going to say it's out of context I'll try to give you something on just the parts you quoted witout other parts to clairify.
It's my new angle. Ha ha

First, my head is round and I took off my stocking hat grabbed it by the edges and shook out the evil.

Second God is explaining to Job that he made the earth and can shape the earth as easily as some one can stamp clay.

Third it doesn't say he showed him the entire earth it say's he showed him all the kingdom's. Kinda like a T.V. show Cause God had that before we did too.

Fourth Daniel was describing a dream. And besides I'm not messin with anything Daniel said cause you know all those lions and stuff

And finally Your not quoting King James word for word


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Cool But he didn't say to shake out the hat, he said to shake out the earth (equivalent to the head in your argument).

Job 38:13 speaks of dawn grasping the earth by its "ends" and shaking the wicked out of it. The picture is metaphorical, comparing the earth to a blanket or garment picked up at one end and shaken. This is immediately followed by the depiction of the earth as a clay tablet, whose surface is changed by the seal which is pressed on (or rolled across) it. After which, its "features stand out like those of a garment." Those two verses employ three flat metaphors for the earth, all in a row!


grabbing the "ends of the earth" like it was a blanket or garment being shaken;

a (flat) clay tablet; and

a (flat) surface of a garment whose color or pattern stands out.

The author of Job also implies that the earth is flat in other passages. For instance, "(God's) measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea," "Who stretched the line on (the earth)?", and, "He looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens (Job 11:9, 38:5, and 28:24)".

Not to forget all the other verses in Job that depict stars moving instead of the earth: God "leads forth" the constellations in "their season," instead of "leading forth" the earth in "its season." (Job 38:32) Therefore, all available evidence points to the author of Job viewing the earth as immobile...and flat.

T.V..... Please.







The Phantom's Evil Twin says: BOOYAH!!!
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 02:27 PM   #95
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What does quoting a Medical journal or science book prove?????

Evil does not exist wihtout good The Phantom Scoo whop a doo zis bam buie
EXCELLENT QUESTION!!! The answer is... Are you ready? NOTHING AT ALL. That's my point! Quoting the medical journal, science book or bible does nothing at all. It is the experimentation that verifies it that does something. It is called 'peer review' in science, and anything that is published by a scientist will not even be accepted as worthy of further consideration unless it stands up to peer review, which is where any... I mean ANY scientist or ANYONE that wants to test the theory themselves to see if it holds up, can (or disprove it if they wish). If it cannot stand up to peer review, it dies before it goes anywhere. christians ignore peer review.






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Old January 22nd, 2008, 02:41 PM   #96
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How can you assume that Christ's disciples were illiterate? Paul did have a scribe write for him but it was not because he was uneducated.
Off the top of my head? Matthew 4:18-22 - Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother are fisherman (not educated, especially back then), and James son of Zebedee and his brother John, also fishermen, same issue. Need more?





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Old January 22nd, 2008, 02:54 PM   #97
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Not really happy but confused at what the heck you are talking about....That verse is talking about the devil tempting Jesus. He could have been showing him the whole world for all we know (He was one of the most powerful angels in heaven before he fell), Or it could be easier to tell the story that way.

Which leads me to my next point. Nobody said the Disciples physically wrote the books. They probably had someone Scribe it for them. Some were educated and luke was actually a historian of the time. So He most likely could write. You still think that God told them the secrets of the universe and was standing behind thier shoulder saying "oh, put this in" And that is not the case, If you think so, your sadly mistaken and confused. They were inspired by the story of Jesus and thier love for the begining church (And the holy spirit) Most of the new testament are letters written to the early churches to encourage and Teach them. (Most from paul). The disciples are no different then Kerwin, or Mr toes, Or I because we are all believers. We describe things the best we can by using the world around us. I don't have super powers, and neither did the early Disciples.


I'm not speaking for Mr toes, I'm joining in on the Debate, and for some odd reason you don't recognize anybody but Mr Toes. It's true his name is on the Thread so if that's what you want then fine. It makes for a Bit of a Boring thread having two people telling thier points of view. Could almost be Thought as Closed minded.....

An WELCOME to the debate! More than happy to converse with you!
I've been replying to pretty much everyone (sorry for anyone that I missed), sometimes 3 per day. I am eager to discuss this with ALL OF YOU, not just Mr. Toes, although he seems to be the most active participant.

Anyway, you are making my point EXACTLY. Everyone that wrote the bible wrote it from their own interpretations and inspiration, much of it (you guys keep saying yourselves) is poetic and metaphorical, so why can't the story of Adam and Eve be so? What about creation? What about ALL of it? Maybe NONE of it happened the way the bible says because it's all just a metaphor, dream, and all the other things that YOU GUYS are saying it is everytime I point out a problem with a phrase (I can paste all of your quotes where you've said this if you like).

I point these things out not to argue their validity, but to get YOU to argue their validity. It's called Socratic method (Socrates rocks ), and it's the best way I know to get people to think about what they believe before preaching it to someone else. Look at it this way, by having this debate with me, you will be even better equipped to go forward and convince others of what you believe, if that is your desire. I personally don't care if people believe what I believe (I noticed that no one bothered to ask, even though I do appear to know the bible pretty well..........)., but I am more than comfortable with my ability to prove what I do believe, and not assert what I can't prove.

Mr. Toes participates in this debate in the spirit that true debate is intended, which is why I respond so well to him. He doesn't get angry and he really handles it quite graciously and with good humor (note his Phantom remarks). Instead of being taken aback by my doubt or questions, be excited by the challenge and dive in with a smile!




The Phantoms Evil Twin will argue for that which he vehemently disgrees just to see if he can learn something..........
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 04:14 PM   #98
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 04:42 PM   #99
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Cool But he didn't say to shake out the hat, he said to shake out the earth (equivalent to the head in your argument).

Job 38:13 speaks of dawn grasping the earth by its "ends" and shaking the wicked out of it. The picture is metaphorical, comparing the earth to a blanket or garment picked up at one end and shaken. This is immediately followed by the depiction of the earth as a clay tablet, whose surface is changed by the seal which is pressed on (or rolled across) it. After which, its "features stand out like those of a garment." Those two verses employ three flat metaphors for the earth, all in a row!


grabbing the "ends of the earth" like it was a blanket or garment being shaken;

a (flat) clay tablet; and

a (flat) surface of a garment whose color or pattern stands out.

The author of Job also implies that the earth is flat in other passages. For instance, "(God's) measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea," "Who stretched the line on (the earth)?", and, "He looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens (Job 11:9, 38:5, and 28:24)".

Not to forget all the other verses in Job that depict stars moving instead of the earth: God "leads forth" the constellations in "their season," instead of "leading forth" the earth in "its season." (Job 38:32) Therefore, all available evidence points to the author of Job viewing the earth as immobile...and flat.

T.V..... Please.







The Phantom's Evil Twin says: BOOYAH!!!

Allright I tried to answer without saying you took everthing ouy of context, and that didn't work so let me try to use some quotes from another source.

You are making the presumption that the metaphoric phases are to be taken literally. A guy told me one time when we where discussing Genisis that"There is nothing to state there were others that were created." and " You are adding something that is not there" and "Untill you find it you need to go with what is in there." That would have been you.
It seems to me that if you believe something is a metaphoric phrase than to presume the author meant it literally would be adding something that isn't there. This would be a contradiction of you own position.
I think to this day we use the phrase, ends of the earth, I don't think it's flat, sail to the corners of the earth, surface of a garment (on a girls nice round butt) thats not flat. Some people might say I have a flat head, but my hat will still fit a round one and to remove that cover and shake it clean would make perfect sense to me. Of coarse this again would be adding something.
Have you heard someone say the sun moving through the sky or setting in the horizon. Do you tell them they are wrong the the earth is actually moving not the sun. Even when a certain planet, comet' or star is visible we are told look in the west at 4 50 am and you will see it moving through the sky.
I think the flat earth and no body knowing if the earth is flat round or pear shaped is something that has no value to either point of view.
We believe the earth is round because someone told us that, my name is Thomas you know the doubting one.

Ithink you are clear as to your beliefs and I don't think that I could discuss Hindu, Muslim, or other religions I don't believe in because I don't study them. So unless you start ripping some Coran stuff off I think I know where you stand.


Good needs evil as day needs light or hot needs cold. Without one you cannot have the other as you would never know the difference.
















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Old January 22nd, 2008, 04:47 PM   #100
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How come your not working it's to early to be on the computer. Saturday is the Observerland wrestling tournement at Canton. Toes is cranked











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