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Old January 13th, 2008, 08:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lothos View Post
is that new hire engineers though vs uaw?
who cares - the point is that someone who has no degree (I'll even disregard the "skill" issue) makes far more than someone who became educated and probably has more responsibility
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Old January 13th, 2008, 08:20 PM   #22
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Sol Goode, Can you tell us what percentage of the total labor rate the base pay makes up for each?

Thanks
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Old January 13th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mike Hancho View Post
what is a tier 2 company?
OEM makes the cars

Tier 1 supplies directly to OEM (Example: Sunroof Module)

Tier 2 supplies to Tier 1 (Example: Supplies motor to Sunroof Tier 1 manufacturer)

etc, etc, etc....
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Old January 13th, 2008, 08:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
OEM makes the cars

Tier 1 supplies directly to OEM (Example: Sunroof Module)

Tier 2 supplies to Tier 1 (Example: Supplies motor to Sunroof Tier 1 manufacturer)

etc, etc, etc....

gotcha...
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Old January 13th, 2008, 08:53 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sol Goode View Post
please give me facts on how you would know this other than pure speculation.
Its common Knowledge. I have a friend working as an engineer who was told that a unskilled worker at New Page Paper in Escanaba MI would make more money than he would after two years on the job. I'm making 60K (starting) a year and I'm guessing that some of the skilled trades at Rockwell Collins make as much as I do after a couple of years as well and I get pretty awesome bonuses. ...And that's not counting the skilled/unskilled with security clearances.
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Old January 13th, 2008, 08:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
OEM makes the cars

Tier 1 supplies directly to OEM (Example: Sunroof Module)

Tier 2 supplies to Tier 1 (Example: Supplies motor to Sunroof Tier 1 manufacturer)

etc, etc, etc....
Does a tier 3 supply the gears for the motor for tier 2?
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Old January 13th, 2008, 08:57 PM   #27
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It's part of why I left the auto industry. Back in the 80s I was a Lean/CI guy (we called it "Synchronous Manufacturing" then) in the GM Component Group - which was an OEM Tier 1. I worked for all those names that don't exist any more (Allison Gas Turbine, Packard Electric, Harrison Radiator, Rochester Products, AC, Fisher Guide, Inland, New Departure, Saginaw Steering, Delco Moraine, and Central Foundry) and few that still do in a different way (Electromotive, Detroit Diesel, Hytic, Delco Electronics). Shiny new engineers like me made a good deal less than the UAW janitor that emptied my trash and cleaned my office. When my daughter was born I would've been out of pocket $2000+ if my wife's insurance didn't kick in. UAW guys hadn't heard of co-pays yet. It was way out-of-balance, and definitely not sustainable.

At Guide Lamp in Anderson, IN it cost us $11 to produce a sealed beam headlamp - that could be purchased at K-Mart (Sylvania - still US made at this point) for $7. And knowing the scrap rate at Guide, it was probably a better lamp. Ancient factory, aged equipment, and old-school UAW attitude, work rules, culture, pay & benefits (well for component people - they did make less than production people screwing cars together).

Today, a lot of those names and plants are gone. Those that are left are Delphi, fighting their way out of bankruptcy (don't hear much about them any more do you?).
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Old January 13th, 2008, 09:02 PM   #28
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maybe the engineers should start a union.
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Old January 13th, 2008, 10:28 PM   #29
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I spend most of my skilled trades time FIXING what some overpaid engineer screwed up.

But hey I only needed 4 years of school in addition to about 10,000 hours of actual legitimate shop time to get a journeyman card.

I have only worked with a few engineers who actually know how things work.

Personally I refuse to work in a tier 1,2 or 3 supplier. I have. I's many hours of sitting around time. You know why??? Because the line is running good parts. If the line shuts down, or if parts go out of spec you will soon have 3-4 engineers assessing the situation, who will then call 1 or 2 skilled trades guys to make it go or make it right.

There are alot of ways to crunch numbers and think that some guys who make 37.00 an hour are easy to replace with 4-5 stupid young kids and call them engineers, actually the big 3 and their suppliers have been doing it for the last 10 years.

Many clueless posts here.
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Old January 13th, 2008, 10:35 PM   #30
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There was, and are now skilled trade folks who deserve that pay.
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Old January 13th, 2008, 11:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Does a tier 3 supply the gears for the motor for tier 2?
Yes, and a tier 4 makes the metal for the gears. :miff:
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Old January 13th, 2008, 11:46 PM   #32
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I have worked with engineers and skilled trades, and sometimes both at the same time with me in the middle, and I would not make a blanket statement about one being more valuable or being worthy of higher pay than the other. There are good and bad workers in each group.
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Old January 14th, 2008, 04:34 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolaidkid View Post
Sol Goode, Can you tell us what percentage of the total labor rate the base pay makes up for each?

Thanks
unfortunately I will not.
If I give that, you might be able to determine what supplier it is
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Old January 14th, 2008, 05:46 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I have worked with engineers and skilled trades, and sometimes both at the same time with me in the middle, and I would not make a blanket statement about one being more valuable or being worthy of higher pay than the other. There are good and bad workers in each group.
I agree with Bruce.

Sol - can you throw out any numbers to give us an idea of the difference?
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Old January 14th, 2008, 06:19 AM   #35
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Just to give you an idea of the other side. My father was an engineer for nearly 30 years and his job for the first 15 was to go out to plants when lines failed or parts were coming off out of spec and he was responsible to fix them. More often than not the issues were caused by the UAW folks ( skilled and line workers ) trying to adapt something or change something to either cause production to fall behind during the week so they could finish up on overtime on the weekend or so they could do a job sitting in a chair.
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Old January 14th, 2008, 06:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
I spend most of my skilled trades time FIXING what some overpaid engineer screwed up.

But hey I only needed 4 years of school in addition to about 10,000 hours of actual legitimate shop time to get a journeyman card.

I have only worked with a few engineers who actually know how things work.

Personally I refuse to work in a tier 1,2 or 3 supplier. I have. I's many hours of sitting around time. You know why??? Because the line is running good parts. If the line shuts down, or if parts go out of spec you will soon have 3-4 engineers assessing the situation, who will then call 1 or 2 skilled trades guys to make it go or make it right.

There are alot of ways to crunch numbers and think that some guys who make 37.00 an hour are easy to replace with 4-5 stupid young kids and call them engineers, actually the big 3 and their suppliers have been doing it for the last 10 years.

Many clueless posts here.

Now you know one more.........:tonka:
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Old January 14th, 2008, 08:06 AM   #37
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It appears all the engineers are hard at work today posting on greatlakes4x4!!
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Old January 14th, 2008, 08:09 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Goode View Post
unfortunately I will not.
If I give that, you might be able to determine what supplier it is
you already said "borg warner"
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Old January 14th, 2008, 08:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Red68Camaro View Post
Now you know one more.........:tonka:
That's what ALL engineers say....
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Old January 14th, 2008, 08:44 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos View Post
Just to give you an idea of the other side. My father was an engineer for nearly 30 years and his job for the first 15 was to go out to plants when lines failed or parts were coming off out of spec and he was responsible to fix them. More often than not the issues were caused by the UAW folks ( skilled and line workers ) trying to adapt something or change something to either cause production to fall behind during the week so they could finish up on overtime on the weekend or so they could do a job sitting in a chair.
I worked in a machine shop at Chrysler for many years and this is very one sided. The reason your father saw this is becuase of the management at the plants. I have seen this first hand and this is how it works.
1. Operator shuts down machine because the part is out of spec.
2. Supervisor says run it anyway.
3. Machine breaks because locators/clamps/cutters etc. are not working properly.
4. Skilled trades are told just get it running no matter what you have to rig because we don't have the parts or time to fix it.
5. This process goes on over and over until the machine can't be fixed.
6. Eng is called in to look up the correct parts out of a catalog or computer
7. Skilled trades get the overtime to fix it right.
8. Workers get the overtime to make up the lost production.
9. Another machine breaks down and the process starts all over again.

I can't blame your father for thinking that skilled trades screwed everything up because he only saw the machine after it was totally screwed up. The problem is that he doesn't get a chance to see how it really got to that point.
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