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Old January 17th, 2008, 01:37 PM   #21
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I didn't make myself clear - I don't think all liberals are whiny, just that the people that feel wronged by GM taking their cars back. Liberal isn't always a bad thing to me either.

Fuel economy with hydrogen will still be an issue, if only because it will involve processing another resource to get it. Just like plug in hybrids seem cleaner, emissions and energy-wise, but it also depends on where the energy is coming from. i.e. coal-burning powerplant w/o scrubbers?
Exactly. Hydrogen in mass production is a heavy user of electricity. Its just shoving the polution from one persons door to another. This is a fundamental problem with plug-in vehicles. In an ICE, you take chemical energy and convert to mechanical energy. In a plug in, you take, primarily, chemical energy, and convert it to mechanical, then to electrical, through transmission lines, then back to chemical, then back to electrical, then back to mechanical Its not magically more efficient or less poluting, its just out of sight, out of mind for the end consumer.

I worked on a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle a few years back. It was terribly inefficent in how much waste heat was in the stack, and had low temperature issues. LOL, think about the size of a cooling fan motor for your typical V8 vehicle..running usually 12v, 20-30 amps.. got that? OK, for the GM/Mistu project we were doing, we need 42V, 80 amps to run the motor, blowing 82kW of waste heat off the stack.

MPGs *would* become immaterial, since they are speicifcally measured against gas. But there would have to be a like measure of efficiency done for hydrogen usage. As noted, creating hydrogen is done through the use of burning fossil fuels. If we suddenly take all of the megawatt-hours required to move our nations cars and now through that onto the grid, it can't be supported with our nations severely lagging power infrastructure, and even if it could, there would be a corresponding increase in fossil fuel emissions to counter the gains done by reducing the vehicle emissions.

What needs to be done is coupling generation plants with local geological features to create the necessary power. Solar chimneys in the southwest, tidal enery out in t he northeast, massive heat pump systems in the gulf, etc.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 01:58 PM   #22
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Think really really hard about the cost/weight/energy density difference of electric vs. gasoline back in the EV1's day.

The car was NOT discontinued for any political reason; the car was a lease and was expected to be returned at the end. It was also heavilly subsidized by GM - the drivers were driving a $100K ev for a tiny monthly payment.

Fact of the matter is this: the EV1 was designed to have a limited lifespan, reflected by the lease. GM brought back the cars and destroyed them because there was no merit in keeping them going. Also, if GM would've let the owners keep their EV1's, there is a very good chance GM would be sued when a EV1 (not being properly maintained) hurt someone.

Not worth the risk.

What I find incredibly frustrating and funny at the same time is that GM is still viewed as some giant corporate monster only interested in making a profit. Last time I checked, that was the main reason most businesses are still in business.

"Who killed the electric car" is just a propaganda film by a bunch of whiny liberals that were pissed GM took away their toys and their ability to be smug with owning an EV.
Moreso, GM is close to having a plug-in hybrid in production. This is a vehicle that can give you 40 miles of EV-only operation AND a gasoline engine to extend your range, or save your ass if you aren't able to get a full battery charge while plugged in. The best of both worlds, but most people are too stubborn to concede GM the point.

Amazing also taht after GM stated they would produce a plug-in hybid, LORDGODKINGtoyota quickly rushed to press with a similar "US TOO!" announcement.

Amazing what some poeple think left to their own little world.
Any time you put a non-production car on the road, you are driving a $100k "heavily subsidized" car. Mass produce the car and it is no longer a $100k car. The EV1 could have been no different.

Im not arguing the energy density gasoline vs EV1 batteries. I will argue the cost/weight of a full electric car IF THEY WERE MASS PRODUCED. I am telling you that the EV1 was capable of ~70-80 miles on a charge with 80s-90s tech lead acid batteries, and IIRC the electric RAV4 (MY98 I think) around 100 miles on a charge (cant remember what type battery.) 10 years ago I could have rattled the specs off to you but Ive forgotten a lot about them since then.

And for the record Ive never seen "Who killed the electric car". I have driven and worked on EV1s and electric S10s and more recently fords hybrid escape.

The liability arguement does not stand because there are many different brands of all electric cars that are still floating around including ex fleet electric Ford rangers, chevy S10s and a few Toyota RAV4s, not to mention all the different brand electric "city cars". Unless Saturn designed something inherently unsafe in the EV1 chassis, the liability reason doesnt hold water.

The EV1 WAS brought about AND discontinued for political reason. The political climate at the time was that California and other states had incoming mandated that a certain # of new cars were going to have to be fully electric. There were scrambles to get a few battery powered cars on the road for testing purposes. In the early late 90s early 2000s that went away and so did most of the alternative fuel programs like natural gas, light duty diesel and full electric. Now with the global warming fad, relatively high energy prices and percieved "global instability" alternative fuels are all the rage.

I just hope it doesnt die down again before they put some full electrics on the road this time. I want a reasonably priced plug-in full electric 4dr, capable of roughly 80-100 mile round trip. FYI Im not a liberal
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Old January 17th, 2008, 02:16 PM   #23
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Fuel economy with hydrogen will still be an issue, if only because it will involve processing another resource to get it. Just like plug in hybrids seem cleaner, emissions and energy-wise, but it also depends on where the energy is coming from. i.e. coal-burning powerplant w/o scrubbers?
That's why I think we need to focus on fuel production from hemp rather than corn. The energy-in compared to energy-out ratio is the best with hemp, and rather sucks with corn. My understanding is that big oil LOVES the idea of fuel from corn because we will haveto burn so much oil to achieve it, that they don't lose anything (some say they gain).

I've yet to see a solution in the mainstream conversation that truly begins to cut big oil out of the equation, but some of us are working on it. Check these out:

http://www.equalrights4all.org/bach/Fuel.html

http://www.hempcar.org/untoldstory/hemp_2.html

hemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphe mphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemp:roc k:
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Old January 17th, 2008, 02:24 PM   #24
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That's why I think we need to focus on fuel production from hemp rather than corn. The energy-in compared to energy-out ratio is the best with hemp, and rather sucks with corn. My understanding is that big oil LOVES the idea of fuel from corn because we will haveto burn so much oil to achieve it, that they don't lose anything (some say they gain).

I've yet to see a solution in the mainstream conversation that truly begins to cut big oil out of the equation, but some of us are working on it. Check these out:

http://www.equalrights4all.org/bach/Fuel.html

http://www.hempcar.org/untoldstory/hemp_2.html

hemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphe mphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemp:roc k:

You seem awfully caught up on teh weed

I don't know the numbers and haven't read comparison data, but ethanol can also be produced from essentially any plant with the right enzymes.....corn/hemp isn't the only sollution on that end.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 02:34 PM   #25
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You seem awfully caught up on teh weed

I don't know the numbers and haven't read comparison data, but ethanol can also be produced from essentially any plant with the right enzymes.....corn/hemp isn't the only sollution on that end.
True, but it's an OUTSTANING solution that is being supressed because of all the big $ corporations that will not make money on it It needs to be legalized and used.

By the way, I haven't smoked pot in YEARS.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 04:14 PM   #26
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The liability arguement does not stand because there are many different brands of all electric cars that are still floating around including ex fleet electric Ford rangers, chevy S10s and a few Toyota RAV4s, not to mention all the different brand electric "city cars". Unless Saturn designed something inherently unsafe in the EV1 chassis, the liability reason doesnt hold water.
What? You're saying that you do not think someone would find a way to go after GM if someone overcharged their LA batteries and blew up their house?

The liability argument shouldn't hold water, but we live in a sue-happy environment where it seems most people will go after the deepest pockets.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 04:15 PM   #27
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True, but it's an OUTSTANING solution that is being supressed because of all the big $ corporations that will not make money on it It needs to be legalized and used.

By the way, I haven't smoked pot in YEARS.
Not sure about ethanol from hemp, but GM just partneres with coskata.

Check out the cool shit here: http://www.coskataenergy.com/
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Old January 17th, 2008, 04:21 PM   #28
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I just hope it doesnt die down again before they put some full electrics on the road this time. I want a reasonably priced plug-in full electric 4dr, capable of roughly 80-100 mile round trip. FYI Im not a liberal
I do not think we will have "Full Electrics" on the road, but as battery technology comes along, range should increase. As far as the plug-in hybrid GM is developing - it is an electric-only powertrain; the internal combustion engine will generate electricity to drive the car's electric motor when the batteries are depleted.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:13 AM   #29
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I just hope it doesnt die down again before they put some full electrics on the road this time. I want a reasonably priced plug-in full electric 4dr, capable of roughly 80-100 mile round trip. FYI Im not a liberal
As noted, energy has to come from somewhere. Everything you are taking from your wall outlet is burning fossil fuels, or creating neclear waste or chopping birds or destroying fish habitat. If we started today, it'd take 10-20 years to upgrade the electrical generation/distribution system in this country for everyone to switch to plug ins. Ginve the cold climate we live in here in MI, you have major technical issues with a full on battery driven car. Same issue you have with fuel cells. This stuff just doesn't meet the -40*C requirements we have.


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True, but it's an OUTSTANING solution that is being supressed because of all the big $ corporations that will not make money on it It needs to be legalized and used.

By the way, I haven't smoked pot in YEARS.
Outstanding solutions tend to make money for big corporations.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:32 AM   #30
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As noted, energy has to come from somewhere. Everything you are taking from your wall outlet is burning fossil fuels, or creating neclear waste or chopping birds or destroying fish habitat. If we started today, it'd take 10-20 years to upgrade the electrical generation/distribution system in this country for everyone to switch to plug ins. Ginve the cold climate we live in here in MI, you have major technical issues with a full on battery driven car. Same issue you have with fuel cells. This stuff just doesn't meet the -40*C requirements we have.
There are many many ways to come up with the energy that you get from a plug in the wall that are far more effecient than the 29%(?) that you get from blowing it all off the cars radiator while idlng at a traffic light.

I think you've been to coal country eh? Old strip mine country makes for some pretty fucking sweet wheeling...

Im not saying mandate electric cars for everybody. I own 3 cars, only one gets used for commuting. The electric could sit in the garage when its <30F or be used for shorter trips. It doesnt get all THAT cold in SE michigan, or in many other parts of the country.

I want one cos they're fucking sweet, if you've driven one youd say the same thing (mebbe not want one, but they're fucking sweet):chiefwoohaw:
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:36 AM   #31
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I think you like the fact you can have 100% of torque available above zero RPM.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 10:00 AM   #32
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Fuel cells are a dead path right now and full electrics off batteries was abandoned a good 3 years ago or more. The problem the industry is faced with is surviving financially while researching the technology needed to not only run on alternative powerplants, but also to bide time for the infrastructure in the country/world to grow and adapt.

People do not understand the vast amount of money and time it requires to adapt refueling/servicing support for the vehicles they drive. E-85 is all well and good, but how many pumps are there around the country? Most stations that have one generally only have ONE. Now, picture hyrdogen as a fuel source. Or your precious plugin's. You think companies will run out and put pedastle's in their parking lots en masse just because plguin's are suddenly for sale?

Ford's logic right now is to look at smaller engines with more power and lighter vehicles. That will be followed with plugin hybrids to do much like GM is doing. Then biodiesel will probably get more attention as you can run bio or normal diesel. Then we'll probably see diesel hybrids.

In the end, the auto industry cannot force feed new fuel demands onto the consumers if the infrastructure is not given the time to adapt slowly. Everyone needs to make money to survive and provide all this new wonderful stuff. Government has done nothing major to help subsidize the fuel station owners for instance.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 10:25 AM   #33
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There are many many ways to come up with the energy that you get from a plug in the wall that are far more effecient than the 29%(?) that you get from blowing it all off the cars radiator while idlng at a traffic light.

I think you've been to coal country eh? Old strip mine country makes for some pretty fucking sweet wheeling...

Im not saying mandate electric cars for everybody. I own 3 cars, only one gets used for commuting. The electric could sit in the garage when its <30F or be used for shorter trips. It doesnt get all THAT cold in SE michigan, or in many other parts of the country.

I want one cos they're fucking sweet, if you've driven one youd say the same thing (mebbe not want one, but they're fucking sweet):chiefwoohaw:

Yeah, I have been to coal country.

I have also done tons of work with alternative energy. Tons of it. Solar energy, wind powered buildings, graduate work, real world, etc. Yes, I've driven electric vehicles. Even the shitty ones they had in the 70s.

My point is people look at a electrics like they don't pollution. BS, of course they pollute.

Look, my job is to design cars professionally. Its not an option to say sorry, its too cold, your car won't work today. The OEMs have determined that vehicles must work to -40.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 10:46 AM   #34
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Default 29.1 mpg 4 door jk

There was just an article about the turbo diesel jk 4 door that the British have been using for two years that get 29.1

Check out the nov dec 2007 issue of low range. magazine pg. 36
I do not think the editors of Low Range are a bunch of tree hugging liberals. That milage is a lot closer to 35 mpg than my buddies jk rubicon that gets 16 mpg. Well just keep buying em cause were boomers then when they have wrung out that market they come out with these for the US. Also for all who have bought large screen, wait till the organic screens hit the market. Of course they will wait till market saturation has occued on that to

the heck with em drive a CJ
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Old January 18th, 2008, 10:51 AM   #35
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something else that I did not see here.

hybrids or eletrics have an issue with the manufaturing and disposal/recycling of the batterys.

NiCad, NMh and Li batteries have some bad stuff in them to. We are more or less just doing the pollution shuffle. We are fooling ourselves if we think we are that much greener by driving a hybrid car.

Same is true for all of the other light wieght materials. It takes energy to produce /dispose /recycle them as well.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 11:05 AM   #36
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There was just an article about the turbo diesel jk 4 door that the British have been using for two years that get 29.1

Check out the nov dec 2007 issue of low range. magazine pg. 36
I do not think the editors of Low Range are a bunch of tree hugging liberals. That milage is a lot closer to 35 mpg than my buddies jk rubicon that gets 16 mpg. Well just keep buying em cause were boomers then when they have wrung out that market they come out with these for the US. Also for all who have bought large screen, wait till the organic screens hit the market. Of course they will wait till market saturation has occued on that to

the heck with em drive a CJ
The problem with diesel right now is the emissions requirements in the US are very strict. So strict that a diesel cannot meet the regulations without a large amount of expensive exhaust aftertreatment. This increases price, decreases fuel economy and inconveniences the customer (having to add urea on a schedule to keep NOx emissions low)
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Old January 18th, 2008, 11:42 AM   #37
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I sat and watched Calibers/Patriots/Compass's roll off the line in Beldevere Ill with VW4cylinder diesels and 6speed manual transmissions.

It makes me sad to see them bound for China, Middle east and (Australia I think?) and I cant get one here.

Tho I must say, I probably wouldnt want to be sitting at a traffic light with 10 other untreated diesels huffing out stank right next to me...
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Old January 18th, 2008, 12:37 PM   #38
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Default Ahhhh, Hippys, gotta love um.

Just a side note here.
Funny how they all forget that the hemp grown for fuel and fiber isn't the same hemp you smoke. Totally different strains. Don't believe me, try it. You won't get so much as lightheaded form the fiber stuff.




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That's why I think we need to focus on fuel production from hemp rather than corn. The energy-in compared to energy-out ratio is the best with hemp, and rather sucks with corn. My understanding is that big oil LOVES the idea of fuel from corn because we will haveto burn so much oil to achieve it, that they don't lose anything (some say they gain).

I've yet to see a solution in the mainstream conversation that truly begins to cut big oil out of the equation, but some of us are working on it. Check these out:

http://www.equalrights4all.org/bach/Fuel.html

http://www.hempcar.org/untoldstory/hemp_2.html

hemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphe mphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemphemp:roc k:
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Old January 18th, 2008, 02:02 PM   #39
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I sat and watched Calibers/Patriots/Compass's roll off the line in Beldevere Ill with VW4cylinder diesels and 6speed manual transmissions.

It makes me sad to see them bound for China, Middle east and (Australia I think?) and I cant get one here.

Tho I must say, I probably wouldnt want to be sitting at a traffic light with 10 other untreated diesels huffing out stank right next to me...
Yes, but the 2.0TDi is the smae motor you can buy here. Trust me, I had one of those caliber 2.0TDIs. Was gonna put it in my Jeep.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 02:02 PM   #40
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The problem with diesel right now is the emissions requirements in the US are very strict. So strict that a diesel cannot meet the regulations without a large amount of expensive exhaust aftertreatment. This increases price, decreases fuel economy and inconveniences the customer (having to add urea on a schedule to keep NOx emissions low)
x2

LOL, our software guys have fun trying not to set the grass on fire when we do afterburns..
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