KITM Oral appeal Jan 22nd 3:30pm in Paw Paw - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

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Old January 11th, 2008, 09:58 AM   #1
HavenSOV
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Exclamation KITM Oral appeal Jan 22nd 3:30pm in Paw Paw

This is it folks. 22nd of January at 3:30pm at the Van Buren County Courthouse. This is the final appeal and approval part for Kids in the Mudd and whether they will be allowed to open for business.

They are asking for all the support as this should be the end of this for them. So if you have thought about showing support, this is the time.
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Old January 12th, 2008, 09:20 PM   #2
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They have more info on their website. KITM
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Old January 12th, 2008, 11:55 PM   #3
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myself and holshotracer will be present on behalf of GLFWDA and Cheapthrillsoffroad

Last edited by CheapThrillB2; January 14th, 2008 at 01:50 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2008, 01:50 PM   #4
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if their is any interest by anyone from the east or north that wants to attend the jan 22nd meeting in pawpaw. Myself and holshotracer will be attending and i would have three open seats in my explorer if theirs any interest in saving gas. I am located 10 miles east of 131 on M179 (Bradley/hopkins exit) their is a car pool lot located at the exit and would be willing to pick anyone up interested in going.
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Old January 14th, 2008, 11:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheapThrillB2 View Post
if their is any interest by anyone from the east or north that wants to attend the jan 22nd meeting in pawpaw. Myself and holshotracer will be attending and i would have three open seats in my explorer if theirs any interest in saving gas. I am located 10 miles east of 131 on M179 (Bradley/hopkins exit) their is a car pool lot located at the exit and would be willing to pick anyone up interested in going.



Great offer!

I have to see if I Can get the time off from work or not.
I'll get a hold of you when I find out.
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Old January 17th, 2008, 11:07 AM   #6
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here is the info on the Jan. 22nd court info for KITM
Attached Files
File Type: doc KIDS_IN_THE_MUDD_APPEAL_BRIEF_12-19-07.doc (96.5 KB, 96 views)
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Old January 18th, 2008, 05:19 AM   #7
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ill be there!
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 05:50 PM   #8
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no ruling was made, the Judge did comment that he felt the township did not overstep their bounds, did not cause a delay and followed suit with timeline on meetings etc... and did act unobjectablely in decisions. But he wanted to veiw the entire zoning oridances of the township as well as wanting to veiw the Townships "Master Plan". After veiwing these documents the judge will rule if KITM truely belongs under arig zoning and is considered a park and recreation. Township considers it an amusement facilty which fits under comericial zoning. So the judge issued a recess for 10 days i believe.
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 05:50 PM   #9
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Thanks to everyone that made it! I know its a long drive for some of you guys, but I also know that Dave and Carol appreciate the continued support. Even if the court does continue to waste everyones time and accomplish nothing all at the same time.

For those that missed it, heres my quick recap as I remember it:

Judge Buhl got things back on track with what we've all grown accustomed to; more delays. He decided that before listening to arguments from either side, he would let both sides know that he realized, last night, he didnt have a copy of the complete zoning ordinance or "the master plan". So, as a result, he would not be able to make any determination today. Following that he asked both sides if they would rather put off the oral argument for today and deal with other more minor issues, or try to continue with the oral argument and postpone the determination for a later date. Mr Manning, representing Dave and Carol, suggested that the missing documents were likely not necessary to make a determination and that theres no reason to further postpone things if it could be avoided. Ms Seeber had no objection.

Mr Manning made the opening arguments. He basically summarized his brief that was posted in the other thread. His points were that this was in fact a "public recreation area" and not an "amusement facility" as it had been portrayed by Ms Seeber. He went on to specify that since the meaning of "public recreation" was clear, there was no need for Ms Seeber to call for any further interpretation of the terms. He went on to add that he felt the time frames involved in the ZBA hearings and determinations were not reasonable and cited material that suggested any determinations should be made within 45 days. Since the time frame in question was 60 days, it was argued that it was an unreasonable amount of delay. He suggested that previous "dog and pony show[s]" had wasted the time of the court and failed to address the real issues of the case. He also suggested that, based on evidence introduced by Ms Seeber herself including numberous photos and videos, there was obviously a demonstrated need for this public recreation area.

Ms Seeber argued that regardless of what they called it, the zoning board knew what the proposed use was. She went on to say that the appellants themselves refer to it as 'play' so regardless of whether its called an amusement facility, a public recreation area, or a playland, it doesnt matter because the board understood what the proposed use was. She argued that 8 weeks was an adequate time frame for making a determination based on the fact that there are five board members whose schedules have to be coordinated and that one of the members takes care of their step mother and cant address such issues at the drop of a hat. She mentioned on a few occasions that it was the appellants responsibility to demonstrate a need and she felt as though a need had not been demonstrated, but rather a desire. In one of Mr Mannings elaborations of the term 'public recreation' the definition included "physical activity" as specification of recreation. Ms Seeber indicated that most of the individuals on the Stasiak's property did not exert any physical activity. She said that they exert no more physical activity than she herself did in getting in her vehicle and driving to the court room.

Mr Manning rebutted and cited references again regarding what the zoning board is supposed to be responsible for and again reminded that there was not a need to "interpret" the terms public recreation since they were unambiguous terms. He expanded a bit more and finished his rebuttal.

Judge Buhl prefaced his comments by saying that he would need a copy of the master plan as well as the full zoning ordinance before making his determination. He did feel he was able to address a few issues, however. He stated that he felt the zoning board members did have a good understanding as to the proposed use for the land, and that he felt they took this seriously. As such, he didnt feel that the misrepresentation of the public recreation area as an amusement facility influenced their decision. He did further state that he did not feel it should not have been depicted as an amusement facility. He also stated that he felt the 60 day time frame, despite the materials cited by Mr Manning suggesting no more than 45 days should be allowed, in this case did still constitute a reasonable time frame. He ended his comments by saying that he would need to acquire both the complete zoning ordinance as well as the master plan before making his final determination. He asked that both be provided to him within 10 days. Mr Manning reminded him that a complete copy of the zoning ordinance was in the basement of the court, and Judge Buhl responded that in that case there would be no need to kill another tree to provide an additional copy. Mr Manning further stated that the master plan had not been made available to him and despite his efforts in locating he had not been able to. He requested that upon receiving a copy, the Judge provide him a copy as well. Judge Buhl agreed to provide either side time to make any additional arguments once all materials had been provided.

There didnt appear to be any resolution to anything at all. Additionally, there didnt appear to be any date set for when the Judges final determination will be made. For those that have attended the previous sessions, it was pretty much the "same ole, same ole".
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 05:57 PM   #10
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what he said in better detail
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 07:46 PM   #11
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Great job recapping Spieg.

This is getting redundant.

Don't know if this will help but my brother in law pointed this out to me. Look at your ORV sticker from the DNR, I'm pretty sure that it says "Recreational" on it... plus, look at this. Read the first paragraph, even the MI DNR says that riding a ATV/ORV is recreation.

I too will be at the next one, because this should not even be in court and the township needs to realize that. They are looking for every loop hole, all we need to do is keep closing them up.

After this is all over, can KITM sue the township for undo stress and torment?
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Old March 4th, 2008, 07:43 PM   #12
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any news?

i was unable to make it to the Feb 22nd court hearing on the contempt charges. What was the verdict? I have gotten any updates.
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