Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:22 AM   #101
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
please keep logic out of political threads, thanks.
sorry. does this mean i get the first jackass of the week award?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
1. Simply because a child is inside the woman does not make it her property. Let me ask you... would you care if you knew there was a battered woman living next door? Are you a jellyfish then too? Her body is not mine, but the injustice is the responsibility of us all.

2. Religion? What are you talking about? Stop making everything about spiritual stuff and shoving religion down my throat.

3. Cool, anytime.
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:26 AM   #102
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,259
iTrader: (39)
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
1. Simply because a child is inside the woman does not make it her property. Let me ask you... would you care if you knew there was a battered woman living next door? Are you a jellyfish then too? Her body is not mine, but the injustice is the responsibility of us all.

2. Religion? What are you talking about? Stop making everything about spiritual stuff and shoving religion down my throat.

3. Cool, anytime.

What do you mean, its not her property? Sure it is. Just like a brain tumor is the property of someone.

FYI, I would never want to have an abortion myself, and I don't wish it upon anybody to make the decision, but it is NOT MY RIGHT to tell someone if they can or not, hence why I'm pro-choice.

I've seen enough crappy parents, and super shitty living conditions where I don't think ANY child should go through hell growing up.

IMO, a 2 month old "fetus" is the same as any other "living" item without feelings, thoughts, or communication skills. Just like a tree or a flower.
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:33 AM   #103
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

First, thanks for actually engaging the topic and giving a responce, THAT I have respect for, not cowardly running away from it.

Second, if a child in the womb is nothing more than a lump of cells, equivalent to tumor, then why do men go to jail for MURDER if they beat a pregnant woman and the child dies?

I never knew you were able to have an abortion in the first place, I always thought you were a dood. Everyone, including you, wants to talk about rights. The rights of the Mom, the rights of the Mom. That is fine and all, but WHY is there no rights for the unborn who did no wrong in the equation? Why? You cannot look only at the Mom when you consider rights, you have to consider both. So why is the child without rights? I used to be pro-choice because I didn't want to be the jury on someone's conscience, but I later could not justify the slaughter of the innocent, and I want to know how you can.

Why do you assume that every child that gets considered for abortion would automatically have a terrible life? How do you know that?

What do you know about a two month old fetus? Does it have brain waves, a heart beat, arms and legs, and does it move about in the womb? That is the same level as bark on a tree? How so?
Dave Kerwin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:42 AM   #104
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,259
iTrader: (39)
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

First, to have this conversation, you have to state when life begins. For me, life begins at the time during the pregnancy when if you were to remove it, it could live by itself, or could be allowed to live in a hospital with the proper medical staff. When is this? I'm not sure. It might be 6 months, or 7 months, whenever. However, I do not believe life begins at conception.

You could also argue the other way, and say ever guy who jerks one should go to jail for murdering MILLIONS of "possible babies", or every time a girl decides to take birth control and skip her period, does this mean shes also preventing life?

If you could show me that a 1 month old "fetus" could live outside of the womb, then I would agree with you that it is wrong, and I would chance my pro-choice stance.

I did not know that someone could go to jail for murder because they beat a pregant women and made her have a miscarriage. I would have to verify that.
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:45 AM   #105
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,536
iTrader: (54)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
Hag, no responce to me.

Arrrrg, be a man.


I've presented my side of it, you want to argue the 95% of cases that evreyone hates and ignore the 5% of cases that most agree that we need to have.


I abhor the ideal of casual abortion. I also abhor the idea that birth defects occur, medical issues arise, rapes happen, etc, but that doesn't mean they'll go away if we ignore them.

I've posted my thoughts plenty before. Be a man? I'm man enough to know that there are times this horrible process is necessary. I'm not a sheep who trying to cram his beliefs down everyones throat without any vested interest in the subject.

Let it be your wife or your daughter who's facing the scenarios that people live out, and see where you are then?
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:47 AM   #106
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,536
iTrader: (54)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
I did not know that someone could go to jail for murder because they beat a pregant women and made her have a miscarriage. I would have to verify that.

I do believe this one is correct, in certain states. It is not federal law.

Which, also again brings up the ponit that when things like this are outlawed, they don't stop, they just go underground with often horrible responses.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:48 AM   #107
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

http://effectivebiblestudy.com/?p=6
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:49 AM   #108
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,983
iTrader: (16)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
Let me ask you... would you care if you knew there was a battered woman living next door? Are you a jellyfish then too? Her body is not mine, but the injustice is the responsibility of us all.
I'll walk over with my 9 and bust a cap for Jesus.
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:50 AM   #109
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,259
iTrader: (39)
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
I do believe this one is correct, in certain states. It is not federal law.

Which, also again brings up the ponit that when things like this are outlawed, they don't stop, they just go underground with often horrible responses.
x2. Right now, someone can go have an abortion in a clean sterile room, performed by someone licensed.

If it becomes illegal, they will still be performed, just in somebodies nasty basement.
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:56 AM   #110
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,536
iTrader: (54)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
x2. Right now, someone can go have an abortion in a clean sterile room, performed by someone licensed.

If it becomes illegal, they will still be performed, just in somebodies nasty basement.
Especially when your Jesus-loving, Santa-hating shotgun-toting dad is going to murder your boyfriend because he's a muslim...
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:44 PM   #111
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
First, to have this conversation, you have to state when life begins. For me, life begins at the time during the pregnancy when if you were to remove it, it could live by itself, or could be allowed to live in a hospital with the proper medical staff. When is this? I'm not sure. It might be 6 months, or 7 months, whenever. However, I do not believe life begins at conception.

You could also argue the other way, and say ever guy who jerks one should go to jail for murdering MILLIONS of "possible babies", or every time a girl decides to take birth control and skip her period, does this mean shes also preventing life?

If you could show me that a 1 month old "fetus" could live outside of the womb, then I would agree with you that it is wrong, and I would chance my pro-choice stance.

I did not know that someone could go to jail for murder because they beat a pregant women and made her have a miscarriage. I would have to verify that.
The date was brought up of a child being only two months along in development (of a total of ten months), which means it is only 20% of the total process. Such a child looks exactly as my daugther did at 2 months, see here: http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...LiLKerwin3.jpg She had the torso, head, arms legs, brain activity, HEART BEAT, and during the ultrasound, was wiggling around like mad in the womb. That picture, like all, are still shots, and do not show the level of life. I consider that picture to show a LIVING child, not some lump of cells like most ignorant people claim. REAL life with REAL movement and REAL body parts. I have 3D versions if you want to see how those look (they show more detail). The point is this: Life starts EARLY. But here is the problem with what you said, even after a child is born, it STILL CANNOT survive outside the womb on its own. Shoot, a two year old could not survive on its own either. Survivability has nothing to do with the value of a life.

Seed that is unplanted and ungrown is not murder. Life never even started.

Again, a baby who is born still cannot live outside the womb. So should they be considered not living enough too? Should life begin when a kid can butter its own bagel???

If a man kills a pregnant woman, he is on trail for double homicide. Look it up, then get back with me on the question I posed to you.
Dave Kerwin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:46 PM   #112
K&J's Dad
Senior Member
 
K&J's Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-11-07
Location: Roseville, Michigan
Posts: 227
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

CC is correct stating that life begins at a certain point (in a legal aspect). A woman cannot have an abortion after the fetus is a certain number of weeks along. This is classified as being able to survive outside the womb with medical care. This also makes it riskier for a woman and can only be done beyond this time frame if the mother would be in a life or death situation.

Look at the history of crimes related to when abortion was legalized. You also need to look at this from a 18-25 year span apart from one another. Crime rates dropped 18-25 years after abortion was legalized due to the poor single mothers and crappy families that chose abortion rather than have a child that wasn't wanted or one they couldn't care for. Read the book Freakonomics to understand this better. This is why abortion is a good thing. There are too many orphans already. Look at third world countries. If they had legal abortions, they wouldn't have the problems they have.

There are still slaves even though slavery is illegal. Just becasue something is illegal doesn't mean it went away. You only hear about it when they find some Mexican holed up in a shack behind someones house. There is no comparison between slavery and abortion. This like comparing speeding and grand theft auto.
K&J's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:47 PM   #113
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
1. I abhor the ideal of casual abortion.

2. I also abhor the idea that birth defects occur, medical issues arise, rapes happen, etc, but that doesn't mean they'll go away if we ignore them.

3. Let it be your wife or your daughter who's facing the scenarios that people live out, and see where you are then?
1. Then do something about the 95%

2. Even if those were legal, it would be progress from where we are today. And frankly, I would pesonally vote it in.

3. Nothing will change, nothing. I have already disussed it with my wife in detail and we are in agreement. The child is NOT a guilty party and will not wrongfully recieve a death sentence based on the crime of another person.
Dave Kerwin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:48 PM   #114
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyevil View Post
I'll walk over with my 9 and bust a cap for Jesus.
My man! Git er dun.
Dave Kerwin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:49 PM   #115
K&J's Dad
Senior Member
 
K&J's Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-11-07
Location: Roseville, Michigan
Posts: 227
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

"Many states have vastly differing laws concerning the killing of a fetus. Some states
treat any fetus as a living being; others consider it illegally terminating a pregnancy,
a felony offense. In California, the law defines murder as the unlawful killing of a
human being or a fetus with malice aforethought. The unborn child must have
passed the embryonic stage, roughly between 6 and 8 weeks. Also, anyone
convicted of more than one first- or second-degree murder is eligible for special
circumstances, which can include the death penalty."
http://www.findlaci2003.us/double-homicide.html

There are vast differences in the laws and vary by state.
K&J's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:49 PM   #116
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,259
iTrader: (39)
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
The date was brought up of a child being only two months along in development (of a total of ten months), which means it is only 20% of the total process. Such a child looks exactly as my daugther did at 2 months, see here: http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...LiLKerwin3.jpg She had the torso, head, arms legs, brain activity, HEART BEAT, and during the ultrasound, was wiggling around like mad in the womb. That picture, like all, are still shots, and do not show the level of life. I consider that picture to show a LIVING child, not some lump of cells like most ignorant people claim. REAL life with REAL movement and REAL body parts. I have 3D versions if you want to see how those look (they show more detail). The point is this: Life starts EARLY. But here is the problem with what you said, even after a child is born, it STILL CANNOT survive outside the womb on its own. Shoot, a two year old could not survive on its own either. Survivability has nothing to do with the value of a life.

Seed that is unplanted and ungrown is not murder. Life never even started.

Again, a baby who is born still cannot live outside the womb. So should they be considered not living enough too? Should life begin when a kid can butter its own bagel???

If a man kills a pregnant woman, he is on trail for double homicide. Look it up, then get back with me on the question I posed to you.

Since we don't agree on what life is, we cannot further discuss this topic.

Thanks.
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:49 PM   #117
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
x2. Right now, someone can go have an abortion in a clean sterile room, performed by someone licensed.

If it becomes illegal, they will still be performed, just in somebodies nasty basement.
And??

So would beating one's wife be acceptible if the man used hand sanitizer beforehand, and then bandaged the wound afterward?

Get real.
Dave Kerwin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:50 PM   #118
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
And??

So would beating one's wife be acceptible if the man used hand sanitizer beforehand, and then bandaged the wound afterward?

Get real.
what does the bible say about punishing your wife?
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:52 PM   #119
K&J's Dad
Senior Member
 
K&J's Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-11-07
Location: Roseville, Michigan
Posts: 227
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

More reading for you:

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/fethom.htm

Lists the state laws.
K&J's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:52 PM   #120
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K&J's Dad View Post
There is no comparison between slavery and abortion. This like comparing speeding and grand theft auto.
Yes, they are different actions, but their similarities is their degree of injustice. My argument is that abortion is WORSE than slavery. Slavery became illegal because of its injustice, so should abortion. Speeding and grand theft auto are both illegal as they should be. But if speeding was illegal and stealing a car was not, then you may be as frustrated with that as I am with abortion. It is inconsistant, friend, that is the problem.
Dave Kerwin is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.34354 seconds with 50 queries