Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 16th, 2008, 09:14 PM   #361
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,913
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Besides, under the 'prolife' logic, there IS no curcumstance where abortion is permissible... So why the death penalty? No difference.
I agree with ZjKid.

Abortion - A Fetus in the womb hasn't made a Decision to do something Illegal. How can it? It doesn't know right from wrong yet? It's just chillin in there munching on...er.....Fetal Food?

Death Penalty - If you go and Commit a Crime that is Known as Punishable by Death, You made that decision. It's your fault, You knew what you were doing. Tuff Nuggets. You'll Be tried for that Decsion and will get your sentence.

Makes sense to me....
L4CX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2008, 09:16 PM   #362
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

its called a pre emptive strike l4cx. kill them when they least expect it.
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2008, 10:38 PM   #363
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,379
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Both are killing a human being. The 'why' doesn't change the 'what'. That's a terrible argument.
So if I break into your house and we each have a gun it make no difference if I shoot you or you shoot me, either way it's murder? Yeah, now theres a great argument...:chiefwoohaw:
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 09:06 AM   #364
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
Well Im not a republican.

Im not a big fan of the war in Iraq, especially after my brother got blown to shit by an IED.

I don't have a gun by my bed, but if the truth be known the first mf that has the balls to break into my house will go out in a body bag. I'll do it with my hands kinda up close and personal like. Weather the punishment fits the crime or not, you don't want to break into my house because you know the price. The question here is do you want to pay that price?

I dont think I'm outspoken its just my opinion

Woooosh The Phantom
Cool. I love it when I am well corrected! Nicely stated, and it looks like we agree on all those points. My apologies sir. When you said you were a conservative I made some assumptions. My error.
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 09:10 AM   #365
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
You could start a new thread on debating the bible. Im up for that one

You are assuming Adam and Eve where the only two people created by God.


The Phantom says Canton has a good wrestling team this year. Wooooosh
I don't know man. If I start THAT thread I'll probably be kicked off the forum (LOL)!!!

I'm totally up for that one too....

No, I am not assuming any such thing. The bible says so. If you want to second guess the bible then maybe you have more knowledge than those that wrote it.....? If you are going to insert that logic to get around my point, then you are adding things that aren't there.....
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 09:36 AM   #366
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
I agree with ZjKid.

Abortion - A Fetus in the womb hasn't made a Decision to do something Illegal. How can it? It doesn't know right from wrong yet? It's just chillin in there munching on...er.....Fetal Food?

Death Penalty - If you go and Commit a Crime that is Known as Punishable by Death, You made that decision. It's your fault, You knew what you were doing. Tuff Nuggets. You'll Be tried for that Decsion and will get your sentence.

Makes sense to me....
I agree with what you said, however it relies on the logic that the death penalty law is acceptable (which is arguable, even under your own logic). I am opposed to the death penalty. I think that capital criminals should have to ROT in prison. Death is an easy way out that they don't deserve.

Killing is killing, no matter the motivation. You cannot refute that, only try to justify it, which means that you would be forced to use multiple standards. I don't believe that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child, and that's effectively what you're saying.... That she must carry the fetus to full term and give birth to it. I don't hear anyone saying that they also want to force the FATHER to care for this child. No. Just the mother. Why should she get screwed a second time?

My wife and I are assuming legal guardianship of a boy (a friend of our son) because his mother can't take care of him. We are not collecting any public money and doing this entirely at our own expense.

How many of you that preach your antichoice gospel are actually providing a home and family to a child that is not your own? If you say that there are plenty of homes for the unwanted babies then PROVIDE ONE! Until you do that, you are offering an empty solution, so it is therefore NOT a solution and should be excluded from your argument.
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 09:39 AM   #367
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
So if I break into your house and we each have a gun it make no difference if I shoot you or you shoot me, either way it's murder? Yeah, now theres a great argument...:chiefwoohaw:
No. "Murder" is a legal term. In both cases it's KILLING. According to the "prolife" logic, killing is wrong NO MATTER WHAT. Follow your own logic or abandon it, your choice, I don't care.
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 11:47 AM   #368
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Killing is killing, no matter the motivation. You cannot refute that, only try to justify it, which means that you would be forced to use multiple standards. I don't believe that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child, and that's effectively what you're saying.... That she must carry the fetus to full term and give birth to it. I don't hear anyone saying that they also want to force the FATHER to care for this child. No. Just the mother. Why should she get screwed a second time?

My wife and I are assuming legal guardianship of a boy (a friend of our son) because his mother can't take care of him. We are not collecting any public money and doing this entirely at our own expense.

How many of you that preach your antichoice gospel are actually providing a home and family to a child that is not your own? .
Killing IS killing, but the argument is not why killing is wrong, it is why ABORTION is wrong. There is a difference here that you are not realizing. Surely no one would want to argue that we make murder legal, everyone agrees there. But if a police officer shoots to kill a criminal who is about to kill someone else, would you think he should receive punishment? No, you wouldn't, and the reason is because a criminal died instead of an innocent party. The same principle applies to abortion. A child is innocent, a murdering criminal is not. Innocent should not die. If anyone has to die, it should be a guilty criminal (and if not death as a penalty, SOME kind of penalty).

I would also want to hold the Father accountable, it is called child support, and it has become so important as of late that the Sheriff will ride the bus and check ID just to find some of the dead beat Dads out there. And when they find his employment, they nail him, HARD.

I think it is fantastic that you are going to take a kid in, it is worthy of great honor. Personally I am not able to do that because I am new in my career, have a 2 bedroom place, and am on a very strict budget right now. However, my church did a home renovation for a foster family in our city to help them. It was a huge undertaking, and we also provide dinners ongoing for the organization that connects foster parents and children. I am not saying that to scratch my back the same way that you weren't to scratch yours, but I agree with you that one has to put their money where their mouth is. For me personally, the only thing I can give right now is my time and labor, which was very worthwhile. I run the men's ministry at my church, and time permitting, we would love to setup a big brother type of program if and when the opportunity is available. There are SOO many unfathered children out there, and we need to step in.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 12:10 PM   #369
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
Killing IS killing, but the argument is not why killing is wrong, it is why ABORTION is wrong. There is a difference here that you are not realizing. Surely no one would want to argue that we make murder legal, everyone agrees there. But if a police officer shoots to kill a criminal who is about to kill someone else, would you think he should receive punishment? No, you wouldn't, and the reason is because a criminal died instead of an innocent party. The same principle applies to abortion. A child is innocent, a murdering criminal is not. Innocent should not die. If anyone has to die, it should be a guilty criminal (and if not death as a penalty, SOME kind of penalty).

I would also want to hold the Father accountable, it is called child support, and it has become so important as of late that the Sheriff will ride the bus and check ID just to find some of the dead beat Dads out there. And when they find his employment, they nail him, HARD.

I think it is fantastic that you are going to take a kid in, it is worthy of great honor. Personally I am not able to do that because I am new in my career, have a 2 bedroom place, and am on a very strict budget right now. However, my church did a home renovation for a foster family in our city to help them. It was a huge undertaking, and we also provide dinners ongoing for the organization that connects foster parents and children. I am not saying that to scratch my back the same way that you weren't to scratch yours, but I agree with you that one has to put their money where their mouth is. For me personally, the only thing I can give right now is my time and labor, which was very worthwhile. I run the men's ministry at my church, and time permitting, we would love to setup a big brother type of program if and when the opportunity is available. There are SOO many unfathered children out there, and we need to step in.

Very nicely stated!

At least you're doing SOMETHING other than just pointing fingers.

No one else seems to be speaking up though.

We can all make excuses as to why we aren't caring for those kids, but I believe that alot of these women would have the exact same reasons they can't care for the child either, which may be why they don't want to have it. But you want to MAKE them have it. So use the same logic on yourself:

So you're new in your career.

So you don't have enough of a dwelling to accomodate them.

So money's tight.

Adopt one ANYWAY. No choice. You MUST do it, it's the LAW....!

Imagine if you were put in that position. Doesn't sound very good, does it? Well, that's what you're doing to them.

If someone uses 'emergency contraception' which is basically a large dose of birth control so that they can stop a fertilized ovum from developing in to a fetus, would that also be murder of an innocent life?

If so, would using spermicide to kill sperm cells before they can fertilize an egg also taking an innocent life? Sperm cells ARE alive.
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 01:41 PM   #370
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post

So use the same logic on yourself:

So you're new in your career.

So you don't have enough of a dwelling to accomodate them.

So money's tight.

Adopt one ANYWAY. No choice. You MUST do it, it's the LAW....!

Imagine if you were put in that position. Doesn't sound very good, does it? Well, that's what you're doing to them.
There is a MAJOR difference here the same way there was beforehand. Someone who has sex and gets pregnant ,and is not responsible enough to care for the child, has MADE A DECISION TO WHICH THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. My desire to see children without parents to have a loving home is not the consequence of my poor decision making skills. It is not a cause/effect dilemma. The two are not equals as you wish to make them be. Neither was your first comparison.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 05:59 PM   #371
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

If Im in a war zone and Im fighting an armed enemy, is it any more wrong for me to kill that armed enemy that is comming to kill me than to walk into a school or hospital and kill ever person that has no beef with me and no way to arm themselves or prtect themselves???























The Phantom is a war machine
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2008, 09:36 AM   #372
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
If Im in a war zone and Im fighting an armed enemy, is it any more wrong for me to kill that armed enemy that is comming to kill me than to walk into a school or hospital and kill ever person that has no beef with me and no way to arm themselves or prtect themselves???
Difference? I don't see no difference. Therefore, abortion is morally and lawfully acceptable.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2008, 09:37 AM   #373
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
Difference? I don't see no difference. Therefore, abortion is morally and lawfully acceptable.
W00T, chalk one up for the baby killers.
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2008, 09:42 AM   #374
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo View Post
W00T, chalk one up for the baby killers.
I had to move to the dark side eventually, dark helmet is too cool.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2008, 09:44 AM   #375
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
I had to move to the dark side eventually, dark helmet is too cool.
welcome dave, you will find its more fun being chaotic evil.

the shocker
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2008, 12:24 PM   #376
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo View Post
welcome dave, you will find its more fun being chaotic evil.

the shocker
does the shocker cause an abortion? just wondering
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2008, 12:25 PM   #377
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
does the shocker cause an abortion? just wondering
if you do it right, there is a flick of the wrist involved thats very tricky.
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2008, 05:46 PM   #378
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
There is a MAJOR difference here the same way there was beforehand. Someone who has sex and gets pregnant ,and is not responsible enough to care for the child, has MADE A DECISION TO WHICH THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. My desire to see children without parents to have a loving home is not the consequence of my poor decision making skills. It is not a cause/effect dilemma. The two are not equals as you wish to make them be. Neither was your first comparison.
Hmmm... So what if their condom failed.....? What if they were young and didn't know how to properly USE a condom becasue the religious right had their way tand their was no contraception education in scools, so they put it on wrong and 'oops'! Then what?
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2008, 06:59 PM   #379
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
Hmmm... So what if their condom failed.....? What if they were young and didn't know how to properly USE a condom becasue the religious right had their way tand their was no contraception education in scools, so they put it on wrong and 'oops'! Then what?
YOU GOT A BABY, and in 16 years you'll be taking it to get its drivers license.
Look at your son and tell yourself it would be O.K. to terminate him. Thats what makes me so PRO LIFE.



















The Phantom likes his children
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2008, 07:21 PM   #380
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo View Post
I bet they don't know I ride the short bus

We all knew
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:52 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.26914 seconds with 50 queries