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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:39 PM   #261
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Dave,

What are your views on Euthenasia (sp?)

Specifically in the case of:

1) A persistant Vegetative State

2) A Pet who is severly injured (unrecoverable) or in end stages of a terminal condition?
In general I don't hold strong opinions about it, because the person is not trying to cause the death of anyone but themselves. Life support with no responce over a lenght of time is not euthanasia. But for a Dr. Kevorkian type of thing, I really am not firm on that. Perhaps you can start a discussion, present your argument, and help me out. For pets, I really don't care, it is an animal without unalienable rights, so do as you see best for the best for the animal. I had to put down a cat before, and a dog, it seemed to be best to end their suffering. But like I said, I am not firm on the euthanasia issue.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:42 PM   #262
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I know it doesn't state that it most survive by itself, but I am challenging the notion all the way back. Because even after a child is born it cannot survive. Sure, it has a fully developed lung to breath, and it has eye lashes and all that jazz, but it still cannot function. What it is TRYING to say is that when the child has the POTENTIAL to survive, it is too late to abort. By my question is that if POTENTIAL is what the decision is based upon, why does a baby who is in the womb for only 20 weeks have less potential? Potential is something that comes to pass in the future, and if that is the case, it is easy to argue that any life that is conceived has the same potential. Does it not?
Viability does not mean it can hunt and gather food to survive. Viability is the process of the use of vital organs to sustain life. POTENTIAL is based on scientific evidence of how well a baby can live (heartbeat, breathe, etc) because the vital organs aren't mature enough. They point out a time frame based on the development of these organs and the use of outside medical equipment to help it. At 15 weeks, a baby wouldn't survive even with medical care. It's immune system is non-existant. You aren't looking at the WHOLE picture. This is deeper medically than you want to delve into.

It isn't always about "saving" a life:
If your wife was pregnant and you found out at 20 weeks that the baby had multiple medical issues and would be wheelchair bound its entire life and have the maximum brain capacity of a two year old its entire life, would you still want to raise this child? (I'm not talking a little bit handicapped, I mean a lot)Even if you knew the baby was going to have multiple surgeries to continue to live. It would have mental disabilities as well as physical disabilities. You would have to care for it the rest of your life. Society would have to care for it if you changed your mind. Would you still want it?
There are people that face this decision every day. Some are not allowed to abort because they find out about these things too late in the pregnancy. THEY must live with this even if they don't want to or can afford to. Why? Because some doctors and politicians told them they have to? This is bullshit. It should be their decision. It is their future that is being decided here. Not ours! Meet a few of these people and the things they go through on a daily basis. Then come back and tell us if you would still keep the baby. If you would, good for you. I couldn't do it. I couldn't live the rest of my life like that.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:48 PM   #263
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In general I don't hold strong opinions about it, because the person is not trying to cause the death of anyone but themselves. Life support with no responce over a lenght of time is not euthanasia. But for a Dr. Kevorkian type of thing, I really am not firm on that. Perhaps you can start a discussion, present your argument, and help me out. For pets, I really don't care, it is an animal without unalienable rights, so do as you see best for the best for the animal. I had to put down a cat before, and a dog, it seemed to be best to end their suffering. But like I said, I am not firm on the euthanasia issue.
If someone is in a vegetative state, they aren't trying to cause death to themselves. That would be suicide. Euthanasia when someone is in a vegetative state is when someone else does the killing. The other party made the choice. Just like abortion.

You can kill a dog that was just eating and walking but you can't kill a fetus that hasn't experienced any type of life yet. Hmmm....interesting. This all sounds hypocritical.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:51 PM   #264
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Viability does not mean it can hunt and gather food to survive. Viability is the process of the use of vital organs to sustain life. POTENTIAL is based on scientific evidence of how well a baby can live (heartbeat, breathe, etc) because the vital organs aren't mature enough. They point out a time frame based on the development of these organs and the use of outside medical equipment to help it. At 15 weeks, a baby wouldn't survive even with medical care. It's immune system is non-existant. You aren't looking at the WHOLE picture. This is deeper medically than you want to delve into.

It isn't always about "saving" a life:
If your wife was pregnant and you found out at 20 weeks that the baby had multiple medical issues and would be wheelchair bound its entire life and have the maximum brain capacity of a two year old its entire life, would you still want to raise this child? (I'm not talking a little bit handicapped, I mean a lot)Even if you knew the baby was going to have multiple surgeries to continue to live. It would have mental disabilities as well as physical disabilities. You would have to care for it the rest of your life. Society would have to care for it if you changed your mind. Would you still want it?
There are people that face this decision every day. Some are not allowed to abort because they find out about these things too late in the pregnancy. THEY must live with this even if they don't want to or can afford to. Why? Because some doctors and politicians told them they have to? This is bullshit. It should be their decision. It is their future that is being decided here. Not ours! Meet a few of these people and the things they go through on a daily basis. Then come back and tell us if you would still keep the baby. If you would, good for you. I couldn't do it. I couldn't live the rest of my life like that.
My nephew was born a month early and had lung development problems. This was partly due to the fact that my sister-in-law was anxious to have the baby and pressed the matter. He had to be flown via helicopter to a children's hospital so special staff could save his life. He was NOT viable, his lungs were NOT developed fully, and he was NOT ready to be born, but he was, and he is alive. On the other hand, my wife had a C-section four days before her due date, and my Mom, who does all non stress test at St John for pregnant women, urged her to wait even those four days further for best development of the lungs. Now my daughter was born and was fine. But the fact that my nephew was NOT viable at 36 weeks, does means he has no right to life? See where I am going with this?

You better believe I would still want my child, as is. I would not kill my own flesh and blood, regardless of its degree of mental or physical handicapp. This is a non-issue for me, a no brainer. As a matter of fact, my wife and I declined certain tests while she was pregnant, because even if my kid was down syndrome or worse, we would not have killed her. How disgusting it is that this is even an option. I was glad our doctor was pro-life and didn't push the test, I would have raised hell.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:51 PM   #265
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In general I don't hold strong opinions about it, because the person is not trying to cause the death of anyone but themselves. Life support with no responce over a lenght of time is not euthanasia. But for a Dr. Kevorkian type of thing, I really am not firm on that. Perhaps you can start a discussion, present your argument, and help me out. For pets, I really don't care, it is an animal without unalienable rights, so do as you see best for the best for the animal. I had to put down a cat before, and a dog, it seemed to be best to end their suffering. But like I said, I am not firm on the euthanasia issue.
No, I'm talking about your mom falls on the ice and hits her head. Docs give no chance of recovery. You are faced with a decision, do you let her be in that state, or end her suffering?

YOU have HER life in your hands, and you as an adult have a terrible reposnsibility to do the right thing.

You have the same responsibility of a severely brith defected fetus. It cannot decide, you need to. You ca stick to your ideals and let that fetus suffer, or you can BE A MAN and do the right thing and end unnecessary and unrecoverable suffering.

The same is true for a dog. Sad to see your views on pets, I've lost some respect for you.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:55 PM   #266
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That is a good thing. Right?!
It would be if they didn't then remove the same amount of tax money from the schools. Slick talking polititions. Next time you go to any store with a lotto machine notice it will say 100% of all lottery profits go to Michigan schools. They just don't tell you they are taking the same amount out.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:56 PM   #267
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If someone is in a vegetative state, they aren't trying to cause death to themselves. That would be suicide. Euthanasia when someone is in a vegetative state is when someone else does the killing. The other party made the choice. Just like abortion.

You can kill a dog that was just eating and walking but you can't kill a fetus that hasn't experienced any type of life yet. Hmmm....interesting. This all sounds hypocritical.
I don't know of cases where they euthanize humans, but I do know that they get taken off of life support. I have never looked at all the scenarios, which is why I said I am soft on the issue, never needed to understand it. But like I said, I am ready to hear opinions (In Another Topic) if someone wants to present them.

I figured Hag would be the one to officially take a cheap shot at me, but you worked too I guess. Lets keep the hits above the family jewels, be a little more fair, that was a stretch, and I am honestly telling you I am not firm on the issue.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:57 PM   #268
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My nephew was born a month early and had lung development problems. This was partly due to the fact that my sister-in-law was anxious to have the baby and pressed the matter. He had to be flown via helicopter to a children's hospital so special staff could save his life. He was NOT viable, his lungs were NOT developed fully, and he was NOT ready to be born, but he was, and he is alive. On the other hand, my wife had a C-section four days before her due date, and my Mom, who does all non stress test at St John for pregnant women, urged her to wait even those four days further for best development of the lungs. Now my daughter was born and was fine. But the fact that my nephew was NOT viable at 36 weeks, does means he has no right to life? See where I am going with this?

You better believe I would still want my child, as is. I would not kill my own flesh and blood, regardless of its degree of mental or physical handicapp. This is a non-issue for me, a no brainer. As a matter of fact, my wife and I declined certain tests while she was pregnant, because even if my kid was down syndrome or worse, we would not have killed her. How disgusting it is that this is even an option. I was glad our doctor was pro-life and didn't push the test, I would have raised hell.
I'm not talking about just a lung problem or down syndrome. What if it there were multiple symptoms that would be there throughout their entire life. Constantly needing attention and updated surgeries to survive. When the govenment would have to step in to pay the bills and assist in living. Why should I pay for this?
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:59 PM   #269
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It would be if they didn't then remove the same amount of tax money from the schools. Slick talking polititions. Next time you go to any store with a lotto machine notice it will say 100% of all lottery profits go to Michigan schools. They just don't tell you they are taking the same amount out.
It's all in the wording. Gotta love the govenment and "Penny" Jenny!
They make it sound so great, don't they. All the money goes to schools, so we can spent tax dollars that would went to the schools somewhere else. Lotteries are awesome!:tonka::tonka:
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #270
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I don't know of cases where they euthanize humans, but I do know that they get taken off of life support. I have never looked at all the scenarios, which is why I said I am soft on the issue, never needed to understand it. But like I said, I am ready to hear opinions (In Another Topic) if someone wants to present them.

I figured Hag would be the one to officially take a cheap shot at me, but you worked too I guess. Lets keep the hits above the family jewels, be a little more fair, that was a stretch, and I am honestly telling you I am not firm on the issue.
Dave Kerwin is not as committed to Pro Life as I 'am. Let me know when you want to hear my radical view's.
You go dude dig your feet in I got your back.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:01 PM   #271
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No, I'm talking about your mom falls on the ice and hits her head. Docs give no chance of recovery. You are faced with a decision, do you let her be in that state, or end her suffering?

YOU have HER life in your hands, and you as an adult have a terrible reposnsibility to do the right thing.

You have the same responsibility of a severely brith defected fetus. It cannot decide, you need to. You ca stick to your ideals and let that fetus suffer, or you can BE A MAN and do the right thing and end unnecessary and unrecoverable suffering.

The same is true for a dog. Sad to see your views on pets, I've lost some respect for you.
I suppose I would attempt to recall her life preferences, any discussions we had, check her will and other documents first. I suppose I might also leave her on support for as long as possible with hopes of her recovery. Then I might do research on the possibility of recovery within certain time periods and things of that nature. If medical professional tell me with almost pefect certainty that she would never wake up, that her brain activity is nada, and that her window of recovery is gone, then I suppose I would tell them it is time unless her wills tated otherwise.

How is this the same to anything?

I don't see the same for my flesh and blood with the birth defects issue. I want my kids, as they are. And if that means one is handicapped, so be it.

The Be a man issue was a darko joke, cmon man, I figured you would get that.

And the pets issue, if you lost respect for me that is fine, you never had any for me in the first place. A pet has no unalienable rights. Taking both of my pets in to get put down was rough, I really enjoyed both of them, but with cancer and a flipped stomach respectively, they would survive, and would no longer walk or eat, either of them. They woudl have been dead within days, and I decided to end it. If that means I am a bad person, so be it.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:01 PM   #272
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It's all in the wording. Gotta love the govenment and "Penny" Jenny!
They make it sound so great, don't they. All the money goes to schools, so we can spent tax dollars that would went to the schools somewhere else. Lotteries are awesome!:tonka::tonka:
Yeah it's not like when I was younger.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:03 PM   #273
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I'm not talking about just a lung problem or down syndrome. What if it there were multiple symptoms that would be there throughout their entire life. Constantly needing attention and updated surgeries to survive. When the govenment would have to step in to pay the bills and assist in living. Why should I pay for this?
I have medical insurance, but thanks for asking. And even if the situation was extreme, so be it. I didn't want it to be that way, but if it is, it is my child, and I will raise it. You asked, I answered.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:05 PM   #274
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Dave Kerwin is not as committed to Pro Life as I 'am. Let me know when you want to hear my radical view's.
You go dude dig your feet in I got your back.
I have always wanted a rear guard.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:05 PM   #275
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I don't know of cases where they euthanize humans, but I do know that they get taken off of life support. I have never looked at all the scenarios, which is why I said I am soft on the issue, never needed to understand it. But like I said, I am ready to hear opinions (In Another Topic) if someone wants to present them.

I figured Hag would be the one to officially take a cheap shot at me, but you worked too I guess. Lets keep the hits above the family jewels, be a little more fair, that was a stretch, and I am honestly telling you I am not firm on the issue.
I have no interest in taking cheap shots. I think you need to get off the high horse and look at scenarios. IMO, you've shown yourself to be a confused young guy who is somewhat disillusioned about your upbringing and seem to be trying to find views that make you feel better about yourself.

On a topic such as this, you have no position to stand on, and you have no right to try to impose your views on others, preaching from on top of a house of cards.

You have serious holes in your arguements, every time you bring these subjects up, you always gloss over these holes. And you goss over the grim reality of the world. You'd rather that abortions happen but people suffer(therfore punishing them for their sins) than they get the help they need. Because except in your overly simplistic head, you will not stop them from happening, even if you outlaw them.

Please, stop posting this topic, and start understanding that you are nobody and you have no right to impose your will on anyone else.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:11 PM   #276
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I don't see the same for my flesh and blood with the birth defects issue. I want my kids, as they are. And if that means one is handicapped, so be it.
I'm not talking about a kid has downs, or even CF, etc. We are committed to raising a downs baby, etc.

I am talking about the unfortunate but real situations where at your 20 week ultrasound, you see that the baby is missing 2 chambers of the heart, or the brainstem is formed outside the skull, and the baby will be born possibly alive, but die within hours or days. Do you carry all the way to let it die in pain and go 20 more weeks of your life with that pain or do you do the best of everyone, including the baby, and move on.



Out of curiousity, why did you guys get an ultrasound at 9 weeks? High risk? Or designer 3d baby brain frying boutiquie to make the parents happy? I couldn't see the pic at work, so couldn't tell the type of machine..
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:52 PM   #277
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I have no interest in taking cheap shots. I think you need to get off the high horse and look at scenarios. IMO, you've shown yourself to be a confused young guy who is somewhat disillusioned about your upbringing and seem to be trying to find views that make you feel better about yourself.

On a topic such as this, you have no position to stand on, and you have no right to try to impose your views on others, preaching from on top of a house of cards.

You have serious holes in your arguements, every time you bring these subjects up, you always gloss over these holes. And you goss over the grim reality of the world. You'd rather that abortions happen but people suffer(therfore punishing them for their sins) than they get the help they need. Because except in your overly simplistic head, you will not stop them from happening, even if you outlaw them.

Please, stop posting this topic, and start understanding that you are nobody and you have no right to impose your will on anyone else.
See Hag, I told you that you had no respect for me! I am not telling anyone how to live their life. If anything I have said what I WOULD DO, and that I don't judge someone for their choices. I am trying to understand how it can be justified to kill a child.

Holes in my argument? Please respond by showing me the holes. But to make sure I understand you, list them numerically so I can see your different flaws you noticed. I will not gloss over them, I will look into them. So go ahead, get to listing them.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 04:02 PM   #278
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I'm not talking about a kid has downs, or even CF, etc. We are committed to raising a downs baby, etc.

I am talking about the unfortunate but real situations where at your 20 week ultrasound, you see that the baby is missing 2 chambers of the heart, or the brainstem is formed outside the skull, and the baby will be born possibly alive, but die within hours or days. Do you carry all the way to let it die in pain and go 20 more weeks of your life with that pain or do you do the best of everyone, including the baby, and move on.

Out of curiousity, why did you guys get an ultrasound at 9 weeks? High risk? Or designer 3d baby brain frying boutiquie to make the parents happy? I couldn't see the pic at work, so couldn't tell the type of machine..
If my wife is pregnant will a child that will die, she will carry it to term and we will have a funeral. I know a friend that this happened to, but it was not from defect, it was from some problem with the environment, and the baby was dead at 24 weeks or something. She delivered it still born and buried the baby. I respected that and would plan to do the same, if that happened.

We got an ultrasound because it was fun, and because it was free. My mom does NST's at St John on Moross in Detroit, and she has a friend who did the ultrasound for free, we actually got lots of hook ups. My daughter was breech (upside down) and folded in half, and my Mom did an NST on my wife just to check on her because they were considering doing an aversion (flip the baby the right way to she could be born vaginally), but she ended up going c-section instead. Long story short, we had many of them because it was free. Here are the others in 3D from almost nine weeks. She has her hands up in her face, gettin her prayer and praise on.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...LiLKerwin1.jpg
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Old January 10th, 2008, 04:17 PM   #279
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If my wife is pregnant will a child that will die, she will carry it to term and we will have a funeral. I know a friend that this happened to, but it was not from defect, it was from some problem with the environment, and the baby was dead at 24 weeks or something. She delivered it still born and buried the baby. I respected that and would plan to do the same, if that happened.
You don't see that as cruel to the baby? Allowing it to live in pain, for YOUR closure?
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Old January 10th, 2008, 04:21 PM   #280
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You don't see that as cruel to the baby? Allowing it to live in pain, for YOUR closure?
In most cases, the child dies before the knowledge of the problem. But a situation similar to what you described can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spina_bifida

It is presumptuous to say that the child is in pain. You wanna show me some facts on that?
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