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Old January 10th, 2008, 08:20 AM   #241
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"The central holding of Roe v. Wade was that abortions are permissible for any reason a woman chooses, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable,’ that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[1] The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health, which the Court defined broadly in the companion case of Doe v. Bolton. These court rulings affected laws in 46 states." - Wikipedia.com

Sorry Dave, it doesn't state the baby must survive outside the womb by itself. The legal aspects of the case talk about all your points. Read the case then start your questions.
And yes, there is a time frame within a pregnancy when abortions can be done.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:07 AM   #242
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Actually you are wrong here. Look at when abortion became legal with Roe v Wade and then look at the drop in crime 18-25 years later. The numbers are black and white. As abortions increased, crime decreased at the same rate 18-25 years later. Not to hard to figure out the correlation. Read Freakonomics to understand statistics and the relationship between these two things.

A heartbeat does not start at conception! There is no fucking heart yet. "I learned it in school." - Conception is only a mass of cells that are multiplying. Do some real research before spouting.
Gotta love those high school kids that know it all. Especially the hillbilly bumpkins like this one.
I guess you missed the sorry I spoke out of line part. Not surprising then, that you would miss the part about a pulse starts at the first division of the cells. I missed the part where I said heart beat begins at conception I can't find that in my reply.
You have however peaked my curiosity regarding the statistics that have some mathmatical relationship between abortion and crime. I am really inerested in how they would apply particular amounts of crime to amounts of abortions., and how they would account for individuals responsible for multiple crimes.
Please tell me where I can find these statistics. Thank you.
ps Do you know the definition of hillbilly?
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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #243
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"The central holding of Roe v. Wade was that abortions are permissible for any reason a woman chooses, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable,’ that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[1] The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health, which the Court defined broadly in the companion case of Doe v. Bolton. These court rulings affected laws in 46 states." - Wikipedia.com

Sorry Dave, it doesn't state the baby must survive outside the womb by itself. The legal aspects of the case talk about all your points. Read the case then start your questions.
And yes, there is a time frame within a pregnancy when abortions can be done.
Silly Question, What happens when test tube babys are perfected. Does this mean the baby can survive outside the womb from the time of conception??
This is not an arguement but a legitimate question.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:16 AM   #244
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You can't have a pulse without a heartbeat. Your heart pumping blood is what creates a pulse. No pulse = no heartbeat.

Stats on crime can be found through the FBI's website and also through other govenment and law enforcement sites.
Abortion statistics can be found on govenment sites as well as medical sites.
Your best bet though is to go to the library and check out olded books detailing this information. It may not all be loaded on the interenet and could vary by website.

dictionary.com:
hill·bil·ly /ˈhɪlˌbɪli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hil-bil-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -lies, adjective
–noun 1. Often Disparaging and Offensive. a person from a backwoods or other remote area, esp. from the mountains of the southern U.S.
–adjective 2. of, like, or pertaining to hillbillies
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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #245
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Silly Question, What happens when test tube babys are perfected. Does this mean the baby can survive outside the womb from the time of conception??
This is not an arguement but a legitimate question.
It is hypothetical until it can be done, if at all. My belief is that they would have to go back and look at the case and laws and determine then if anything has to be changed. The only thing that matters is when medical experts convince politicians to look at the pregnancy time frame differently. Our personal opinions don't matter.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:44 AM   #246
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You can't have a pulse without a heartbeat. Your heart pumping blood is what creates a pulse. No pulse = no heartbeat.

Stats on crime can be found through the FBI's website and also through other govenment and law enforcement sites.
Abortion statistics can be found on govenment sites as well as medical sites.
Your best bet though is to go to the library and check out olded books detailing this information. It may not all be loaded on the interenet and could vary by website.

dictionary.com:
hill·bil·ly /ˈhɪlˌbɪli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hil-bil-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -lies, adjective
–noun 1. Often Disparaging and Offensive. a person from a backwoods or other remote area, esp. from the mountains of the southern U.S.
–adjective 2. of, like, or pertaining to hillbillies
The reasonI ask about the statistics is I have found that you can draw opposite conclusions from the same comparison of numbers.

Example : You have a city with a population of 200. In year 1 they have 4 murders. In year 2 they have 3 murders, but the population is now 100.

Conclusion : You have a 25% decrease in murder. While having a 50% increase in murder


3 is 25% less than 4 but the 4 murders per 200 residents is equal to 2 murders per 100 residents so in year 2 you have 3 murders per 100 residents or an increase of 50%
This is similar to Detroit being called the murder capital of the U.S. this happened in 1980 also but the formula used in 1980 is not the same formula used in the 2005 or whatever year it was staistic to call this the murder capital.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:54 AM   #247
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They use crime rate per 1000 or 10,000 people. This takes the change in population away from the equation. You don't want the actual crime tally but a ratio to the population. You also need to look at the economics of the times as well. If the country is pospering there is less crime as well. They checked these variables to come to this conclusion.
If you read the book Freakonomics, you will get a much better understanding of the comparison that what I can describe here. I am by no means an expert and cannot explain it the way they do. It is actually a very interesting book with lots of subparts that keep you reading and enthralled. It isn't all statistics.

Detroit is the murder capital based on murder rate per 1000 people. The number of murders did decline from 1980 to 2000 but the population may have fallen at a faster rate. Thus murders per 1000 actually could go up during this time frame.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 11:04 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by K&J's Dad View Post
You can't have a pulse without a heartbeat. Your heart pumping blood is what creates a pulse. No pulse = no heartbeat.

Stats on crime can be found through the FBI's website and also through other govenment and law enforcement sites.
Abortion statistics can be found on govenment sites as well as medical sites.
Your best bet though is to go to the library and check out olded books detailing this information. It may not all be loaded on the interenet and could vary by website.

dictionary.com:
hill·bil·ly /ˈhɪlˌbɪli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hil-bil-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -lies, adjective
–noun 1. Often Disparaging and Offensive. a person from a backwoods or other remote area, esp. from the mountains of the southern U.S.
–adjective 2. of, like, or pertaining to hillbillies

I almost forgot. The pulse part. I will get you name of the film I was talking about as it did show at the initial spliting of the egg a rythmatic pulse that never stopped. It was a medical filand wasn't politically motivated.

The Hillbilly thing I asked because I saw the definition in a really old Dictionary one time actually said Hillbilly (Paraphrase) are the mountain people from the areas of West Virginia and Pennsylvaina.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #249
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They use crime rate per 1000 or 10,000 people. This takes the change in population away from the equation. You don't want the actual crime tally but a ratio to the population. You also need to look at the economics of the times as well. If the country is pospering there is less crime as well. They checked these variables to come to this conclusion.
If you read the book Freakonomics, you will get a much better understanding of the comparison that what I can describe here. I am by no means an expert and cannot explain it the way they do. It is actually a very interesting book with lots of subparts that keep you reading and enthralled. It isn't all statistics.

Detroit is the murder capital based on murder rate per 1000 people. The number of murders did decline from 1980 to 2000 but the population may have fallen at a faster rate. Thus murders per 1000 actually could go up during this time frame.
That would mean the actual total number of murders declined so statiscally some one could say the murder rate per household went down providing the population decrease did not account for any decrease in address occupancy. This is what is confusing.
When they talk about accidential child shootings did you know they include random murders and drive by shootings. It then makes it impossible to put a number on the effectiveness of gun locks.

Did you know all the lottery profit goes to the schools.

Last edited by Mr Toes - R.I.P.; January 10th, 2008 at 11:18 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 01:15 PM   #250
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Did you know all the lottery profit goes to the schools.


That is a good thing. Right?!
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:10 PM   #251
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And this is the point for me.

1. I did not asked to get raped and inpregnanted........... I had no voice or
choice on the matter either, so do my feeling not matter?????

2. It would have been punishment for me to have to carry that baby
knowing how it was conceived. And to look at that baby everyday
seeing the person who did this to me...
I know you did not ask to have a crime committed against you, and I don't downplay how that must have been. You had a voice and a choice on dealing with the after effects. Of course your feelings matter, I never said they didn't.

Yeah, it would have been another difficulty as a result from the first wrongdoing. If anyone knows the feeling of being wrongfully harmed, it would be you. And it is that reason that I figured you would understand the nature of the INNOCENCE of the child.

What I want to hear from you or anyone else, is that the child is an innocent victim, much like you were. You did have the option of giving the child up for adoption, who knows what would have been easier to deal with in the long run, I guess you will never know. But it is not my place to judge your decisions, only to answer your inquiry.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:13 PM   #252
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Ya know you want everyones input on this but your not willing to see it from thier point of view. No matter what someone says you tell them they are wrong... All I'm asking is to see it from my side because I can see it from yours.

The 10 week comment was what was told to me 20 years ago when all this happened....
Sure I am willing to see it from another point of view, but I am asking someone to show me why it is acceptible for a child in the womb to be without rights. I am still trying to understand how that is possible.

The picture I posted was just shy of 9 weeks, and I heard the heartbeat myself. But I remember reading that the heartbeat begins BEFORE that. Check it out yourself. I suppose this point is moot, but just letting you know.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:15 PM   #253
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i can read. you are assuming your wife would carry the baby to term. you cannot say what she would do in that situation for sure. does she do everything you tell her to? i bet she walks 10 steps behind you like a proper woman.
You don't know me or my wife, who is a great woman. Don't ASSume dude. My wife reminds me of things I need to remember, and I do the same for her. We are in agreement, and I hope it never comes to pass that we would have to keep our promises to each other on that matter.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:43 PM   #254
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Your right to choice ends when it interferes with someone else's right to choice. Society has decided that the little boys in your example are too young to make those choices and so we have laws to protect them from that situation.

You will of course respond that a womans choice to have an abortion violates the baby's right to chose life and so society should also have laws to protect them.

My response to that will be that when a baby achieves rights will depend on when you consider life to begin, which will bring this right up to date with the current status of the debate.

You will then ask me when I consider life to begin.

My response to that is that I really don't know when life begins. I'm torn on defining it as at conception or at the point of viability outside the mothers body. But if you ask the society as a whole the answers will range from when the sperm and egg are created inside the parents body to when they can move out of the house and financial support themselves. And since society can not come to an agreement on this issue I am not in favor of passing laws that impose a certain belief.

And before you can twist that statement into something absurd I do think that any argument to put the point of life beginning at before conception or after birth is ridiculous and not worth considering. I also believe that an abortion after the point of viability to be murder. As to any other point to define when life begins between those points I think that unless science can prove that the baby has a "sole" or can feel pain the it should be a personal decision, not a legal one.
Bruce, first, very fair answers, let me comment and question on some of it.

What if a nine year old boy WANTS the ability to CHOOSE to undress behind a curtain and dance around nakes for adult gay men to view? Would that not be removing that young boy's ability to choose? The point is that choice is not always the right thing to do, because a minor needs to be protected from someone who may harm him. The same principle applies to children in the womb, someone needs to protect them. As this point it is not our laws, it is not our government, and it is not our people. To me this is wrong, and it is a tragedy.

Establishing when life begins IS very difficult, but surely there is life in the womb, and that CANNOT be ignored. But it is easy for someone to say "I don't know" or "we can't legislate on that." The higher calling is to get down to the bottom of it and start protecting life, even if it is only limited protection, we need progress!
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:50 PM   #255
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You didn't correct shit. I asked when life started. Try to comprehend the question before you rush to your answer.
I stand corrected. I re-read it, and it was as you said. My bad.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:52 PM   #256
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I stand corrected. I re-read it, and it was as you said. My bad.
saved, you dont see kerwin admitting to being wrong much
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:55 PM   #257
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"The central holding of Roe v. Wade was that abortions are permissible for any reason a woman chooses, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable,’ that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[1] The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health, which the Court defined broadly in the companion case of Doe v. Bolton. These court rulings affected laws in 46 states." - Wikipedia.com

Sorry Dave, it doesn't state the baby must survive outside the womb by itself. The legal aspects of the case talk about all your points. Read the case then start your questions.
And yes, there is a time frame within a pregnancy when abortions can be done.

I know it doesn't state that it most survive by itself, but I am challenging the notion all the way back. Because even after a child is born it cannot survive. Sure, it has a fully developed lung to breath, and it has eye lashes and all that jazz, but it still cannot function. What it is TRYING to say is that when the child has the POTENTIAL to survive, it is too late to abort. By my question is that if POTENTIAL is what the decision is based upon, why does a baby who is in the womb for only 20 weeks have less potential? Potential is something that comes to pass in the future, and if that is the case, it is easy to argue that any life that is conceived has the same potential. Does it not?
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Old January 10th, 2008, 02:56 PM   #258
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saved, you dont see kerwin admitting to being wrong much
second time in this thread, dummy!

but I won't apologize to you, because... nevermind..
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:26 PM   #259
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second time in this thread, dummy!

but I won't apologize to you, because... nevermind..
wow, thats funny, cause when i was talking to satan earlier he mentioned that hell was getting a cold spell.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 03:30 PM   #260
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Dave,

What are your views on Euthenasia (sp?)

Specifically in the case of:

1) A persistant Vegetative State

2) A Pet who is severly injured (unrecoverable) or in end stages of a terminal condition?
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