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Old January 9th, 2008, 04:50 PM   #181
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And that statement is absolutely true, see http://www.blackgenocide.org/
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Old January 9th, 2008, 04:58 PM   #182
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I also don't believe that a woman that is fearful for a moment has an abortion. Do you really think that many women are that insensitive? Women are VERY sensitive. I think the vast majority put a ton of thought into their action. Do a lot always think back and wonder what could have happened? Certainly. I'd hope so. It is a life changing experience to say the least. It is most likely the biggest decision of the lives and can't be easy. I would never want to be in that situation. But if I was, I would want be happy to know that it is my choice and not yours to decide what I can and can't do.
You don't think that the decision to have an abortion involves fear? You don't think there is emotional distress? It seems like you are just trying to find a way to disagree with me, eventhough we are saying nearly the same thing. I agree that such a decision would be difficult, my only suggestion was that the most clear of decisions might not be made in the middle of emotional distress. I have heard from many women who regret their decisions, and in hindsight, would have kept the child.

Why is it that the child has no rights? It is only because of its dependance on the Mother to survive? There has to be a greater reason than dependance.

Ultimately, abortion comes down most often to selfishness, and I don't hear anyone being honest enough to say it. (now before anyone attacks, note that I said "most often").
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Old January 9th, 2008, 04:58 PM   #183
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coming from a man who lives to serve a non existent fairy tale being, that stings
betta rekognize
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Old January 9th, 2008, 05:15 PM   #184
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You don't think that the decision to have an abortion involves fear? You don't think there is emotional distress? It seems like you are just trying to find a way to disagree with me, eventhough we are saying nearly the same thing. I agree that such a decision would be difficult, my only suggestion was that the most clear of decisions might not be made in the middle of emotional distress. I have heard from many women who regret their decisions, and in hindsight, would have kept the child.

Why is it that the child has no rights? It is only because of its dependance on the Mother to survive? There has to be a greater reason than dependance.

Ultimately, abortion comes down most often to selfishness, and I don't hear anyone being honest enough to say it. (now before anyone attacks, note that I said "most often").
Holy shit you read what you want to! You put everything into your own context. I never said it didn't involve fear or emotional distess. Also, "treating badly" does not mean abused. I didn't imply that. That was your own interpretation. In your own fantasy world you have created the perfect solution to your own question. No matter what we put on here you say our logic is flawed or we are incorrect. I am starting to think maybe you are a douchebag. You can never be wrong even if someone is only stating their opinion.
What the heck are you smoking over there! It isn't a child. It is a fetus. Stop confusing the two. It has no rights. When it is born and becomes a child it has limited rights. Children don't have all of the rights as adults. Not until they are adults do they break free from their parents making decisions for them when it comes to certain rights.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 05:41 PM   #185
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And that statement is absolutely true, see http://www.blackgenocide.org/
It cant be genocide if its voluntary.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 05:42 PM   #186
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Holy shit you read what you want to! You put everything into your own context. I never said it didn't involve fear or emotional distess. Also, "treating badly" does not mean abused. I didn't imply that. That was your own interpretation. In your own fantasy world you have created the perfect solution to your own question. No matter what we put on here you say our logic is flawed or we are incorrect. I am starting to think maybe you are a douchebag. You can never be wrong even if someone is only stating their opinion.
What the heck are you smoking over there! It isn't a child. It is a fetus. Stop confusing the two. It has no rights. When it is born and becomes a child it has limited rights. Children don't have all of the rights as adults. Not until they are adults do they break free from their parents making decisions for them when it comes to certain rights.
Lets not get into semantics, if I misunderstand you, please clarify. I understand now that you dont consider bad treatment to equal abuse, and I have already aplogized. I hope that is satisfactory.

This topic is not just about personal opinion, it goes past that. At one time in society it was determined that theft was wrong, that murder was wrong, etc. That decisions were made because there was a gut feeling in everyone that such things were WRONG. What I am trying to do is determine if the abortion industry has pulled the wool over our eyes. I am trying to determine if abortion is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I am attempting to do this by considering what justice is, what innocence is, what life is. But what no one else seems to want to do is have that discussion on what justice is, what innocence is, what punishment is, and what life is. When I get to the point of asking someone about life, they cowardly back out, when I ask someone about justice, they ignore it. Well, it seems to be that way anyhow. Everyone wants to defend abortion, but no one has a solid position in doing so, everyone only has personal opinion, no one has PRINCIPLE. And if they find a "mother's right" as a priciple, it is only after ignoring what may be the right to life of the child. What I DONT see is consideration of anything but a woman who is pregnant. No consideration on justice, or life. Am I skimming past this or it is simply not happening?
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Old January 9th, 2008, 05:43 PM   #187
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It cant be genocide if its voluntary.
It is NOT voluntary. Innocent children are not asked before they are killed. I agree with CC that where a person determine's life to start is key to this discussion, but no one wants to actually talk about it.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 05:56 PM   #188
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Lets not get into semantics, if I misunderstand you, please clarify. I understand now that you dont consider bad treatment to equal abuse, and I have already aplogized. I hope that is satisfactory.

This topic is not just about personal opinion, it goes past that. At one time in society it was determined that theft was wrong, that murder was wrong, etc. That decisions were made because there was a gut feeling in everyone that such things were WRONG. What I am trying to do is determine if the abortion industry has pulled the wool over our eyes. I am trying to determine if abortion is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I am attempting to do this by considering what justice is, what innocence is, what life is. But what no one else seems to want to do is have that discussion on what justice is, what innocence is, what punishment is, and what life is. When I get to the point of asking someone about life, they cowardly back out, when I ask someone about justice, they ignore it. Well, it seems to be that way anyhow. Everyone wants to defend abortion, but no one has a solid position in doing so, everyone only has personal opinion, no one has PRINCIPLE. And if they find a "mother's right" as a priciple, it is only after ignoring what may be the right to life of the child. What I DONT see is consideration of anything but a woman who is pregnant. No consideration on justice, or life. Am I skimming past this or it is simply not happening?
is that they don't want to bring that life into this world. Its a very solid and principled position for the person involved with it. If a person is not responsible and does bring that life into this world, who pays to raise the child if the person continues to be irresponsible? If they are not only irresponsible in their birth control methods, they may well be irresponsible in their educational and job requirements needed to raise the child. At that point it is then dumped on the tax payer.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 06:11 PM   #189
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Abortion is wrong and nor do I think that the mother alone should have the choice to abort a child.

It takes two to make one, even if I felt that abortion was ok or that it was acceptable (even though I do not) it should take more than the mothers decision...

What about the father? What if the mother is for it and he is very strongly against it?

I just want to reitterate that I think abortion is cruel, unfair, un-human and completely wrong. You will NOT change my opinion so don't try.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 06:14 PM   #190
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It is NOT voluntary. Innocent children are not asked before they are killed. I agree with CC that where a person determine's life to start is key to this discussion, but no one wants to actually talk about it.

that life is sustainable outside the womb? It sounds harsh but if its not, it can only be ONE other place. Thats at the point of conception, because all the points in between are merely different points on a calender. So if its at the point of conception, and it ends up being a mistake because birth control was not used, then who pays for it? The ultimate birth control is actually abstinence. I compare it to the death penalty issue. Should there be a death penalty? If abortion is bad, the death penalty is bad also?
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Old January 9th, 2008, 06:19 PM   #191
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I agree with CC that where a person determine's life to start is key to this discussion, but no one wants to actually talk about it.
No, the fact is you don't want to accept that other people have a feeling OPPOSITE of yours. Theres no discussion needed, I've already stated my opinion, and there are no other facts to change it.

The day you show me that a three week "fetus" can function outside of the womb, is the day I agree with you that abortion should be 100% outlawed.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 07:14 PM   #192
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3. Nothing will change, nothing. I have already disussed it with my wife in detail and we are in agreement. The child is NOT a guilty party and will not wrongfully recieve a death sentence based on the crime of another person.
This is Daves anwser to a question asked by Hagger in an earlier thread.

I've seen where some of you have replied that abortion is wrong no matter what. Well I'm not trying to change anyone minds and I dont believe it should be an easy out if you're being stupid and not using protection but let me tell you all a little story and see if you feel at the end of this that it is still wrong no matter what......

One day there was an innocent 17 year old girl was leaving a friends house and was take against her will. The people who took her also took her parents truck that she was driving... These people beat and raped and held this 17 year old against her will for 4 days. They trashed the truck and hide it so not to be found, and her parents didn't know where she was...

She had finally got away and the people were caught. She found out the next month that she was pregnant... Still trying to heal from the events she went through the month before she was faced with a hard choice to make.. She choose to have an abortion....

Now Dave you keep asking for someone to show you how an abortion could be "JUSTICE OR INJUSTICE" and that the "fetus" is innocent in any pregnancy. What about the 17 year old girl that had this injustice done to her and that was innocent in all this.. Does that still make an abortion wrong or unjust?

I know that the "child" in all this is innocent and had nothing to do with the choice that was made... But was the 17 year old wrong to make that choice? If someone you love ever went through all of this would you or could at them and say "Well sweetie, me and mom are really sorry for what happened to you but you know how we think, so you'll have to carry that baby to term and have it." forcing this poor "child" to relive her "kidnapping" with every movement of the baby??

Please answer honestly and dont attack me for asking the question... Remember I do not condone an abortion for the reason of "just because"
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Old January 9th, 2008, 07:18 PM   #193
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This is Daves anwser to a question asked by Hagger in an earlier thread.

I've seen where some of you have replied that abortion is wrong no matter what. Well I'm not trying to change anyone minds and I dont believe it should be an easy out if you're being stupid and not using protection but let me tell you all a little story and see if you feel at the end of this that it is still wrong no matter what......

One day there was an innocent 17 year old girl was leaving a friends house and was take against her will. The people who took her also took her parents truck that she was driving... These people beat and raped and held this 17 year old against her will for 4 days. They trashed the truck and hide it so not to be found, and her parents didn't know where she was...

She had finally got away and the people were caught. She found out the next month that she was pregnant... Still trying to heal from the events she went through the month before she was faced with a hard choice to make.. She choose to have an abortion....

Now Dave you keep asking for someone to show you how an abortion could be "JUSTICE OR INJUSTICE" and that the "fetus" is innocent in any pregnancy. What about the 17 year old girl that had this injustice done to her and that was innocent in all this.. Does that still make an abortion wrong or unjust?

I know that the "child" in all this is innocent and had nothing to do with the choice that was made... But was the 17 year old wrong to make that choice? If someone you love ever went through all of this would you or could at them and say "Well sweetie, me and mom are really sorry for what happened to you but you know how we think, so you'll have to carry that baby to term and have it." forcing this poor "child" to relive her "kidnapping" with every movement of the baby??

Please answer honestly and dont attack me for asking the question... Remember I do not condone an abortion for the reason of "just because"
the fact that you survived that ordeal speaks much of your strength of character, but you will never persuade dave. he is a Shiite fundamentalist christian, and truth, logic and reason bounces off his layer of blind faith.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 07:26 PM   #194
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It is NOT voluntary. Innocent children are not asked before they are killed. I agree with CC that where a person determine's life to start is key to this discussion, but no one wants to actually talk about it.
We could discuss this for eternity and never agree because even the medical experts can't agree on when life starts. Is it the first heartbeat? First brain activity? Third trimester? Birth? The discuss is pointless beyond opinion.
There are social factors that play heavily on this. It isn't just about when we classify them from fetus to child. The social ramifications are almost always overlooked by the religious followers that are so adamently against abortion. And yes, religion is a driving factor. Their perception of life can and does include the soul.

If you want to really push the limit of life then what about the egg and sperm? Are they not alive? Every time you masterbate you are killing thousands of your pontential children. I am being funny and serious here. It is quite funny but also serious that they are alive and can be the beginning of life. Your wife's birth control is killing the egg. Where is the injustice in this?

To me a birth control pill, morning after pill, and abortion (up to the beginning of the trimester) are all the same. It is not a life yet. This is my opinion and I stand by it. I look at the social benefits abortion brings and find more positives than negatives. ie - saving taxpayers dollars, reduced medical costs, extra resources, less criminals, possibly less child abuse, etc.....

And yes I look at the semantics when you look at meaning completely different than intended. It is clear we both disagree but please don't read into it more than I have typed. I try to be as clear as possible but it is difficult to describe things without tone or expression.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 07:32 PM   #195
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Now Dave you keep asking for someone to show you how an abortion could be "JUSTICE OR INJUSTICE" and that the "fetus" is innocent in any pregnancy. What about the 17 year old girl that had this injustice done to her and that was innocent in all this.. Does that still make an abortion wrong or unjust?
The justice is aborting the baby so the father does not reproduce and pass on his genes. Maybe the guy was insane and had lots of hereditary diseases. Should the mother pay even more for this rape by having this bastard child?
If it was my daughter, I would be extremely mad if she actually wanted to keep the baby. How could you keep this baby born from such a horrible man and horrible crime?
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Old January 9th, 2008, 08:02 PM   #196
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We could discuss this for eternity and never agree because even the medical experts can't agree on when life starts. Is it the first heartbeat? First brain activity? Third trimester? Birth? The discuss is pointless beyond opinion.
There are social factors that play heavily on this. It isn't just about when we classify them from fetus to child. The social ramifications are almost always overlooked by the religious followers that are so adamently against abortion. And yes, religion is a driving factor. Their perception of life can and does include the soul.

If you want to really push the limit of life then what about the egg and sperm? Are they not alive? Every time you masterbate you are killing thousands of your pontential children. I am being funny and serious here. It is quite funny but also serious that they are alive and can be the beginning of life. Your wife's birth control is killing the egg. Where is the injustice in this?

To me a birth control pill, morning after pill, and abortion (up to the beginning of the trimester) are all the same. It is not a life yet. This is my opinion and I stand by it. I look at the social benefits abortion brings and find more positives than negatives. ie - saving taxpayers dollars, reduced medical costs, extra resources, less criminals, possibly less child abuse, etc.....

And yes I look at the semantics when you look at meaning completely different than intended. It is clear we both disagree but please don't read into it more than I have typed. I try to be as clear as possible but it is difficult to describe things without tone or expression.


I tried to high light: There are social factors that weigh heavily on this.

Its not that I couldn't agree with a ban on abortion, its just that I'm more against having to pay for others mistakes and irresponsibility. Not to change the subject, but thats why I previously brought up the death penalty. Its the same sort of issue. Some are against the death penalty. The argument is used that an Innocent person could be killed and its not a deterrent. Look at the guy that just killed the gal in Georgia. He told them where to look for her AND he took them there and found her body. How about the guy in Florida that raped the little girl and buried her alive. There is no question that these guys are guilty. There is NO doubt at all. Well, tell me why we should pay to keep them alive and give them health care, dental care, congenial rights of visitation (get pussy). How many of you or people you know don't have health care or minimal care? AND you AND your wife go to work every day. Its insane. When there is no doubt that they have killed, they gotta go. You take a life you have to give a life. OK so lets say we agree with the ones that oppose the death penalty. Let the ones that don't want the DP provide the money to keep these guys locked up. Seems very fair to me. All the others in prison should be self sufficient.Yeah I know the unions will argue that they are taking jobs by doing work in prison. Wouldn't they be doing a job if they didn't go to prison? Duuhhh, whats the difference? Every aspect of the crime and the criminal justice system should be paid for by those that have done the wrong. No tax payer involvement. No abortion, thats fine then the ones that oppose it will be responsible for funding those entering the welfare system.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 08:12 PM   #197
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1. that life is sustainable outside the womb? It sounds harsh but if its not, it can only be ONE other place. Thats at the point of conception

2. Should there be a death penalty? If abortion is bad, the death penalty is bad also?
1. The life of a baby STILL is not sustainable outside the womb even after it is born, it cannot survive. But I think you are on to something about conception, about a life having that one of a kind DNA.

2. Yes there should, and here is why: the death penalty is the termination of life as a penalty to a crime. Abortion is the termination of life as a result of SOMEONE ELSE's mistake. This is the main point for me, because a child in the womb did not ask to be made, a child in the womb has no voice or choice, and a child in the womb should not be the target of punishment. But someone who gets the death penalty is justly receiving punishment for wrongdoing. A baby has done no wrong.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 08:14 PM   #198
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No, the fact is you don't want to accept that other people have a feeling OPPOSITE of yours. Theres no discussion needed, I've already stated my opinion, and there are no other facts to change it.

The day you show me that a three week "fetus" can function outside of the womb, is the day I agree with you that abortion should be 100% outlawed.
I am willing to hear and respect another opinion, but not one that is unsupported. I have no respect for beliving something with no reason. You still refuse to engage a discussion with me about an 8 week old fetus, to which I have fact, and you gave none in return, only a personal opinion. Your opinion is not respectable Kelly, because there is nothing that you have shared to back it up.

The day that you show me that a healthy baby that is delivered can function on its own, I will see reason not to kill it on the spot.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 08:22 PM   #199
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Now Dave you keep asking for someone to show you how an abortion could be "JUSTICE OR INJUSTICE" and that the "fetus" is innocent in any pregnancy. What about the 17 year old girl that had this injustice done to her and that was innocent in all this.. Does that still make an abortion wrong or unjust?

I know that the "child" in all this is innocent and had nothing to do with the choice that was made... But was the 17 year old wrong to make that choice? If someone you love ever went through all of this would you or could at them and say "Well sweetie, me and mom are really sorry for what happened to you but you know how we think, so you'll have to carry that baby to term and have it." forcing this poor "child" to relive her "kidnapping" with every movement of the baby??

Please answer honestly and dont attack me for asking the question... Remember I do not condone an abortion for the reason of "just because"
I know you have heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right", this is case in point. If a crime was committed against you, it illegal and WRONG. If someone must die as a result of this crime, let it be the CRIMINAL, not the baby who is innocent. Surely this would have been a burden on you, but another wrong does not take back the wrong that was done to you.

I am not discounting the mental anguish through such an event, but the right thing should happen, regardless of how difficult it is. I am of the opinion that if that young girl birthed the child and gave it up for abortion, the pain IN THE LONG RUN would be less, as the Mom would still remain innnocent throughout everything.

If someone raped my wife and she got pregnant, she is keeping the baby, and I will raise it as my own, God as my witness. Again, I am sorry to hear of your troubles, but we cannot impute a punishment against an innocent victim.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 08:25 PM   #200
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If someone raped my wife and she got pregnant, she is keeping the baby, and I will raise it as my own, God as my witness. Again, I am sorry to hear of your troubles, but we cannot impute a punishment against an innocent victim.
even if she didnt want it?
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