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Old February 3rd, 2008, 06:37 AM   #1
Dirtdug
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Default Third member help needed

Im having a blast building up a little tracker this winter. She is sitting on 31" monster mudders with an automatic and stock 4.30 ratio third members. Thanks from the advice and assistance from a site member I have found a pair of front and rear 5.12 thirds. I will be on my way to the other side of the state today to retrieve them. I had been asking questions trying to learn more about possibly welding or if available lockers etc seeking the best trail traction but also allowing a safe trail rig to be occasionally driven on the road without any unsafe tendencies. Turns out the rear third is already welded on these units so I will be learning first hand its effect as soon as I mount them up. The member I am getting these from thinks that the gears could be freed from the welds that hold them now if I wished to return these to the stock limited slip.
Now some other questions;

If I wanted to try a locker like the one offered by Rocky Road, what of the third member components will I need to re-use?

Also another thing I have been wondering, I know that this welded rear is going to give me some annoying hop and torque of my rear tires on sharp turns on the pavement, since not a DD I think I can live with that, but what would be the negative effects of welding the front gears, and simply dis-engaging the front hubs when I want to drive it to the trails just down the road a short distance. I am fortunate living where I do; I have a ton of decent trails right beside me so this is a very real scenario. This must have some obvious negatives to the more experienced 4x4 Wheelers since I have not come across anyone talking about doing this, but I can't see what those negatives might be. Before I do something I might regreat I thought I might bounce it off all of you guys, anybody done this?
Suggestions welcome!
Doug
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Old February 3rd, 2008, 07:45 PM   #2
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if you dont want the rear welded swap carriers & the ring gear around from the old & new rear thirds I had a rear end in a samurai that was welded & liked the fact it chirped around corners (bad handling on ice) & it lasted a long time before the welds & spiders failed
welding the ft is going to put alot of stress on the aluminum 3rd & steering Ive done it & exploded the housing but was really beating it but you have a auto(mine autos didnt have lock outs) which is smoother on power transfer so it might last Ive had lock right lockers in the ft which worked good w/ power steering
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Old February 4th, 2008, 11:38 AM   #3
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I've been running my Lincoln locked Sammi on the street for over a year now as my DD. The only time I really notice the rear end is when I'm parking. Most likely the tracker third has had the side gears filled in so they can't spin on the spider gears. Just swap in your carrier in like A$X$SPIT said if you want it open again. I'd definetly go for a locker up front, because even in the trails your going to put a lot of stress on the third member with it welded. Stress your steering and your arms too. For the front if you go with a lock-rite you would probably re-use the side gears, althoough you can spend more and get one that doesn't use them. A Lock-rite would probably be the cheapest unit out there and they are pretty reliable. What are you doing with the old set of gears? I'm running stock 3.73's in my axles and could stand to move up a little.
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Old February 4th, 2008, 09:08 PM   #4
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I think I can help you out with that.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. I want to be sure I have this straight, With what locker will I re- use the side gears? I have never opened one of these or a regular differential and although you probably would never have guessed it, I don't have a clue about these things!! And won't you need those gears If I re-use the side gears with the Lock Right or is it if I use the Lincoln? At any rate if I don't need the gears from my original third members in trying to get the locker installed you will be welcome to them. Thanks again, and if you can clear up a little of my confusion on this it would be greatly appreciated, if that is possible or there is enough time in the day!!
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Old February 4th, 2008, 09:17 PM   #5
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Put the welded one in the rear and get a locker for the front (if only 1 is welded). IF there both welded dont worry bout it just put them in.

I daily drove my truck (85 toyota truck)with a welded front and a ez locker out back. Ended up switching them not to far back and liked it alot better with the real locker up front. Ez'er turning offroad and less likly to break somthing. For on the road it wasn't really that bad. Yea you do hear the tire cherp somthimes but nothing worth complaining about.

Only real down fall i found with having the rear welded/locked is in the winter or when its wet the rear end wants to walk out from under you spinning you out. That is more of which the drivers fault goofing around:tonka:

Hope that helps. Any ?s just ask

Last edited by Mud'N'Truck; February 4th, 2008 at 09:20 PM.
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Old February 4th, 2008, 09:22 PM   #6
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the tracker i have played with all have 2(1) pin carriers a lock right needs a 4(3) pin trail tough has a ft tracker locker for not too much more than you can get a locker & a used carrier for & the lockers installed
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Old February 5th, 2008, 06:25 AM   #7
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Cool, a locker up front, and the rear third is already welded, lower gear ratio, this should make quite a difference in the little stinker.
I need to ask a question however, you stated "the tracker i have played with all have 2(1) pin carriers a lock right needs a 4(3) pin" I am not farmiliar with the PINS term. I am awaiting some manuals to arrive that may make the answer obvious, but untill they arrive I am left scratching my head!
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Old February 5th, 2008, 11:23 AM   #8
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I'll see if I can explain it better. The carrier is the large center part that the ring gear is bolted to. Inside the carrier each axle goes into a side gear. Between the side gears are whats called the spider gears. On a Tracker set up there are two spider gears and one pin that goes through the carrier, through the first spider than through a spacer. It then goes through the second spider gear and out into the carrier on the other side. On a four pin carrier like a Samurai, there are four spider gears. Two are held in place just like the Tracker, the other two are held inplace by a short pin that goes through the carrier, the spider, and ends in the spacer, butted up against the long pin. These are generally considered to be much tougher because of the increased amount of parts to distribute stresses through, and that is why most companies that make lockers want a set up with 4 spider gears. Depending on what locker you buy, it will be set up to mesh with the original sidegears or it will have it's own replacement parts that fit in instead of the sidegears. I've heard on Sammi's that since the axle tubes are thin if there is any amount of bend in the tubes a locker with it's own sidegears is more likely to dissengage under stress, while a locker that uses the stock sidegears can have problems if there is much wear on the sidegears. That's probably clear as mud, but I don't have any pictures I can paste in to explain it better. It also means that regardless of what ring and ping gears you are using the center section is the same.

Dave
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Old February 5th, 2008, 07:00 PM   #9
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I guess the call a carrier w/1(actual) pin a 2 pin carrier & one 3 (actual )pins a 4 pin hotwired discribed it better than i did... lockrights used in a ft samurai(tracker too I think) have no choice but to use factory side gears also if you use a samurai 4 pin carrier with the 512 s the pins need to be held in place by use of metal ring because the ring gear is smaller /shorter the one I had was a trail tough kit thingy the next one I did I welded a band that sliped in place
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Old February 5th, 2008, 08:23 PM   #10
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Now it is starting to make some sense to me, thank you for taking the time. I will keep you posted as I assemble the parts and change out the thirds.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 11:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtdug View Post
I will keep you posted as I assemble the parts and change out the thirds.
I don't know if a Samurai third will bolt in in place of the Tracker third, but if so I have a spare third member with the four pin carrier. I know Tracker bolts straight into Sammi, but I don't know if the reverse is true. If it will work, I'd trade that for your 4.30 ring and pinion gears. Win Win for both of us.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 05:34 PM   #12
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the samurai third member wont work in a tracker there is a pinion mt on tracker but the carrier would
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Old February 8th, 2008, 07:25 AM   #13
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I had a lock rite in the rear of my tracker. Between its light weight, great stock gearing, MTs and the rear locker the thing was unstoppable (aside from ground clearance). I never really felt the need for a front locker
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Old February 17th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #14
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Finished installing the new 5:12 thirds, welded rear, open front. Actually doing so has made the spedo read much more accurately with the 31" tires than it was before. Took it out last night for a test and seems to do quite well, but with the snow 16" to 20" deep the little "G" had its work cut out for it on untraveled trails. So light it just wants to float. I knew that the year after I sold my snowmobile we would have a record year for snow fall!

Hey Hot Wired, lets touch base on the removed thirds for your Tracker!

Thank you all for the help so far, more questions coming!
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Old February 20th, 2008, 11:17 AM   #15
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PM'd you
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