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Old February 14th, 2008, 04:40 PM   #141
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perhaps some good links to throw to them....

State Land Use Rules - Talks about the 20 ppl rule
specifically 299.921.h.i, ii, i

PR-1138 Event Application/Permit to use State Land

PR-1138-1 Non-Event Application/Permit to Use State Land

Land Use Fee Schedule

COVERED USE (8-16 vehicles),
LOW INTENSITY (17-30 vehicles),
MEDIUM INTENSITY (31-40 vehicles),
HIGH INTENSITY (41-50 vehicles),
VERY HIGH INTENSITY (51-60 vehicles)

Last edited by phazer42; February 15th, 2008 at 05:50 AM.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 04:43 PM   #142
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Quote:
would it not seem plausible that the authorities would post signs to that effect?


How could they write tickets if they had the trails properly marked?!
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Old February 14th, 2008, 06:47 PM   #143
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How could they write tickets if they had the trails properly marked?!
why you gotta the let cat out of the bag?

I cant wait to see your rebuttle Mr. Mazzola!

Last edited by CreativeFab; February 14th, 2008 at 07:46 PM.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 07:33 PM   #144
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why you gotta the cat out of the bag?

I cant wait to see your rebuttle Mr. Mazzola!
I'm flabbergasted by his apparent lack of understanding of the ORV laws. However, it just points out the the Achilles heel of the DNR and their bewilderment every time they try to figure out why so many users either ignore or are unaware of laws that affect ORV's. They (DNR) always point to the hunters and fishermen who seem to know all their laws. I think it all points back to the 'motorized babysitter' mentality that todays youth and Gen X users grew up with.
As far as a reply.....two ways to hit it....I think getting them to understand a bit of the laws but at the same time put GLFWDA in their face (politely of course) so next time we might be given some consideration which would put us front/center in a pretty high profile publication AND maybe get some ink with respect to the lopsidedness of the ORV laws in Michigan with respect to full size vehicles. You never know which congressman/woman might just be our next ally. We will need friends in high places if we ever expect to get the laws changed here in Michigan.
Stay tuned, I'll post up my reply probably tomorrow.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 07:38 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phazer42 View Post
perhaps some good links to throw to them....

State Land Use Rules - Talks about the 20 ppl rule
specifically 299.921.h.i, ii, i

PR-1138 Event Application/Permit to use State Land

PR-1138-1 Non-Event Application/Permit to Use State Land

Land Use Fee Schedule

COVERED USE (8-16),
LOW INTENSITY (17-30),
MEDIUM INTENSITY (31-40),
HIGH INTENSITY (41-50),
VERY HIGH INTENSITY (51-60)
Only the first link works, others are 404. I'll see if I can debug them and post them with the reply. I've got a few URL from the MCL right now on the 2WD rule and driving in/on wetlands area.
jim
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Old February 14th, 2008, 07:46 PM   #146
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Kill them with kindness Jim

Your right, we might be able to get something out of this!
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Old February 14th, 2008, 07:54 PM   #147
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Kill them with kindness but hammer them with facts.
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Old February 15th, 2008, 05:48 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
Only the first link works, others are 404. I'll see if I can debug them and post them with the reply. I've got a few URL from the MCL right now on the 2WD rule and driving in/on wetlands area.
jim

links corrected
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Old February 15th, 2008, 07:13 AM   #149
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Wow. 8 pages. Just look at the crap that I stirred up. Go get 'em guys.
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Old February 15th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #150
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Thought about forwarding their comments to the DNR?
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Old February 15th, 2008, 11:15 AM   #151
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Thought about forwarding their comments to the DNR?
I've got most of their e-mail addresses which will be Cc'd on my reply to Mr Spence.
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Old February 15th, 2008, 07:17 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Spence, Managing Editor, Car and Driver
If we cannot "just drive right out on to the rocky beach or down any forest road," would it not seem plausible that the authorities would post signs to that effect?
LOL, typical "I can go where I want if nothing is posted."

We should find where he lives and park in his front yard, since I am sure he doesn't have "No parking in yard" signs posted - so it is totally alright.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 06:18 AM   #153
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OK everyone, I replied to the magazine with Cc's going to the DNR in the area who are doing the investigation of the activities in question.
I decided to refrain from posting the letter just yet until they've (C&D) had a chance to respond.
Thanks to all who posted links and suggested actions.
We'll see what happens next. Letters to the Editor usually take two to three issues to surface so we'll have to wait till Aptil or May for anything. If they do print it, I anticipate that there will be plenty of 'mis-quotes'.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 08:09 AM   #154
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I have a trip planned to Drummond the last week in May. Where can I get a decent trail map? Does any one have some topo software for the area for a gps? I have only been up there one other time and we used the map you get at the Bear track inn but that was marginal at best. I woul like to wheel legally and avoid another dnr ticket,i already have one from here in Allegan( wife was not happy!).
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Old February 18th, 2008, 09:18 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepnxj96 View Post
I have a trip planned to Drummond the last week in May. Where can I get a decent trail map? Does any one have some topo software for the area for a gps? I have only been up there one other time and we used the map you get at the Bear track inn but that was marginal at best. I woul like to wheel legally and avoid another dnr ticket,i already have one from here in Allegan( wife was not happy!).
Johnson's Sport Shop on Drummond Island has the best maps. They are the one's that are approved by the DNR. I wouldn't rely on any others to keep you out of trouble.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 09:24 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
Ding, Ding, Ding........Steve Spence just replied to me. I need to dig out the DNR rules and fire it back to him. Here's his letter:
jim
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

James Mazzola

You write, "Besides violating numerous state laws with regard to being in the water with the vehicles and driving on closed trails. . ." Exactly what law or regulation do you allege that we were in violation of? If we cannot "just drive right out on to the rocky beach or down any forest road," would it not seem plausible that the authorities would post signs to that effect? And you're saying if a DNR official had come upon us he would have cited us "thousands of dollars"? Exactly for what?

Steve Spence, Managing Editor, Car and Driver

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
seems kinda arrrogant.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 09:40 AM   #157
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seems kinda arrrogant.
x2... that was the exact impression I got..
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Old February 18th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #158
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x2... that was the exact impression I got..
He won't be once he sees the reply.:tonka:

Lots of legal mumbo jumbo but JM also included the link about the asshats who just got jail time. Might make them think a little. Especially since the DNR was cc'd on the email.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 11:19 AM   #159
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Wow, that's a long thread. It's very Informative too. Thank you guys.

jbro507, In your response to Mr. Spence, you might want to add a link to this thread? While there is some Contridictory stuff in it, it would show the Passion and devotion that so many of you have for legal Wheeling and maybe, Just maybe, it'll slam his Pride down alittle. The Guy seems to be a Bit Cocky.

Also, A good point to bring up is that laws are not always Printed out right in front of you. Saying " I didn't see anything saying I couldn't do it" doesn't make it right. If the law is in the Michigan Vehicle Code it's law. There doesn't have to be any signs. Ask anybody who parks in Lansing/East Lansing. They have a million and one different parking Laws. They don't have any signs for them, but they will still ticket for them. I hate people that use that excuse. If you're going to be in an unfamiliar area you should know the
Law.

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This is the biggest problem with the 2 wheel drive law, it is up to the officer to determine if grandma's Buick can traverse the road or trail. If this officer is from the city (no offense to city dwellers) he believes Buicks can only travel hard pack, maintained, or even blacktop surfaces only. Sure this sounds a bit extreme and naive to think, but I bet it is not that far out of line with some of the new hires within DNR law enforcement.
I'm not being a Jerk by saying this, but CO's go through a pretty extensive training. I've looked into it and they have to know alot of stuff. One being an Extensive Training on defensive driving on all vehicles governed by the DNR. It's not like the just throw them in the Green truck and let them go. They deserve the same respect that regular Officers do. If not more. Even if you don't like that they give you tickets.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 11:48 AM   #160
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I'm not being a Jerk by saying this, but CO's go through a pretty extensive training. I've looked into it and they have to know alot of stuff. One being an Extensive Training on defensive driving on all vehicles governed by the DNR. It's not like the just throw them in the Green truck and let them go. They deserve the same respect that regular Officers do. If not more. Even if you don't like that they give you tickets.
Yeah, they are trained in hand gun use a driving for sure. But, we have had many discussions with the DNR and various CO's.

They are not all on the same page for interpreting the law. Plain and simple.
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