Drummond Island illegal wheeling in Car and Driver ??? - Page 5 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 7th, 2008, 06:09 AM   #81
SKIP
Past Pres. GLFWDA
 
SKIP's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-19-05
Location: Rochester Hills
Posts: 113
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Story is that this is now closed to the big 3 also.
I know based on past discussions.
My point was more that money can buy special access...
Even to public lands...
SKIP is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old January 7th, 2008, 07:32 AM   #82
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 21,351
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKIP View Post
I know based on past discussions.
My point was more that money can buy special access...
Even to public lands...
Agreed!
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 09:14 AM   #83
CreativeFab
used to be Ironman
 
CreativeFab's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-01-05
Location: midland
Posts: 3,214
iTrader: (35)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP_ROKTOY View Post
Not a bag on anyone other then the DNR really, but it seems like a stupid concept, either something is illegal or its not right?

Why close something "some" of the time?

I can understand seasonal closures. But I don't understand "open for such and such event"
A very big part of an event permit is the road bond payed out by the event organizer. This allows the DNR to do a survey of the permitted trails after the event to make sure no damage was done to trail. If in fact they conclude damge occured during the event the event organizers would not get their road bond monies returned.

This brings me to the "closed unless posted open" just becuase a trail has tracks on it does not mean it is posted open. Until the 2 wheel drive car law gets changed we are sh*t out of luck for trail riding with any challenge involved outside of the event permit.
CreativeFab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 09:28 AM   #84
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,121
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironman View Post
A very big part of an event permit is the road bond payed out by the event organizer. This allows the DNR to do a survey of the permitted trails after the event to make sure no damage was done to trail. If in fact they conclude damge occured during the event the event organizers would not get their road bond monies returned.

This brings me to the "closed unless posted open" just becuase a trail has tracks on it does not mean it is posted open. Until the 2 wheel drive car law gets changed we are sh*t out of luck for trail riding with any challenge involved outside of the event permit.
I hear what you are saying. I guess what I am getting at is not everyone knows closed unless posted open. Further if you see fresh tracks or an "established" trail do you always look for a sign that states "hey check out this trail its open"?

My point is there seems to be WAY too many gray areas and these permit runs seem to gray those areas up even more....
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 09:32 AM   #85
CreativeFab
used to be Ironman
 
CreativeFab's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-01-05
Location: midland
Posts: 3,214
iTrader: (35)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP_ROKTOY View Post
I hear what you are saying. I guess what I am getting at is not everyone knows closed unless posted open. Further if you see fresh tracks or an "established" trail do you always look for a sign that states "hey check out this trail its open"?

My point is there seems to be WAY too many gray areas and these permit runs seem to gray those areas up even more....
no argument here
CreativeFab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #86
WalkerDI
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-19-07
Location: Drummond Island/Michigan
Posts: 11
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I talked to the DNR this morning,,, they were not aware of C&D having a photo shoot on the island. No special permission was given to anyone involved. No event applacation was approved. I think what happened occured simply because the trail guide wasn't aware of the existing ORV laws.
I saw the other picture that was mentioned,,, one photo was taken on private property, the other is on State owned beach front.
WalkerDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 12:25 PM   #87
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,121
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

I say we petition C&D to make a donation to glfwda, tread lightly and ufwda for their boo boo.

being an automotive enthusiast magazine they should know better and should be held accountable.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 12:36 PM   #88
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,539
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP_ROKTOY View Post
I say we petition C&D to make a donation to glfwda, tread lightly and ufwda for their boo boo.

being an automotive enthusiast magazine they should know better and should be held accountable.
x2

Anybody have contact information for those guys?
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 12:41 PM   #89
jeeptjpaul
Senior Member
 
jeeptjpaul's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-30-06
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 1,248
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Anybody have contact information for those guys?
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...nd-driver.html
jeeptjpaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 12:50 PM   #90
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,121
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

editors@caranddriver.com
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #91
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,121
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Editor,

I would like to direct your attention to a discussion taking place on www.greatlakes4x4.com in regards to a recent article in your publication. The discussion can be seen here http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=72187 I'd ask you take a look at the discussion and the fuss you have caused. It would appear you have possibly trespassed, wheeled illegally, and failed to tread lightly. As an offroad enthusiast I suggest you do your part in correcting your mistake, a mistake which will in turn damage my hobby's reputation and possibly our rights to public land, by donating to the cause at www.glfwda.org, www.ufwda.org and also www.treadlightly.org

It's bad enough that we have to fight the battle with fellow enthusiasts who are trying to do the right thing, now we have to cover up for your mistakes as well?

In the future if you want to go offroad contact the people in the know at any of the websites above and make sure you adhere to the states laws in regards to proper orv use.

Thanks,

UP_ROKTOY




sent.....
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 01:20 PM   #92
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 21,351
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Default

Bravo
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 01:30 PM   #93
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 21,351
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Default

Sent this:

Dear Editor,
I am the trail ride committee chairman for Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association (GLFWDA.org) which is a non profit organization dedicated to the sport of Full Size 4x4 vehicle recreation. Our organization is in constant contact with the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) and we continually find ourselves doing damage control with the DEQ due to uneducated people violating our state laws.

Your recent article depicting vehicles on Drummond Island was recently brought to my attention. It is articles like this that continue to get more of our public land closed. Your people driving on closed beaches give the unknowing beginner the false impression that these are open beaches. In turn, it gives those trying to close our public land more ammunition, showing how people disregard the laws.

You are not the only ones. I find it horrifying how many of our auto companies show 4x4’s splashing through streams and mud with wheels churning. This tells everyone that this is what the enthusiast wants.

Well, we don’t.

I suggest that you contact the local Michigan DEQ office and explain that you have heard from GLFWDA and we do not approve. Further, I suggest that you print “A LARGE” retraction in your magazine noting your mistake. A simple small blurb buried in the editor’s page is not sufficient.


Sincerely,
A very disgruntled reader

Jim Kitson
Davisburg, MI

GLFWDA Trail Ride Committee Chairman
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 01:38 PM   #94
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,105
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

How about Craig Hoffman? As he's the one that was the alleged 'expert guide' that took C&D around. I believe he needs to understand the laws of this state also. Ignorance is no excuse.
Maybe a few e-mails to him would help the 'education process'?

Additionally, 'Closed unless posted open' is a management process to control UNLICENSED ORV's, Not full size vehicles with SOS licensing. Our legality hurdle is the 2WD rule, nothing more. And to make it even more confusing, D.I. is in the UP which is 'OPEN Unless Posted Closed' for state lands. Which means everything on State of Michigan property on D.I. is open as long as it can be driven by a 2WD car or M/C or Quad which seems unfair as the full size vehicles could have substantually less trails than the quads have to run on UNLESS the DNR uses the 2WD rule to define open and closed roads for ALL ORV's.
Very confusing is an understatement!
jim-kb8ymf

Last edited by kb8ymf; January 7th, 2008 at 01:44 PM.
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 01:38 PM   #95
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,121
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

well you clearly took more time to write yours then I did mine LOL

typed communication = not UP_koktoy's strongpoint
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 01:39 PM   #96
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,121
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
How about Craig Hoffman? As he's the one that was the alleged 'expert guide' that took C&D around. I believe he needs to understand the laws of this state also. Ignorance is no excuse.
Maybe a few e-mails to him would help the 'education process'?

Additionally, 'Closed unless posted open' is a management process to control UNLICENSED ORV's, Not full size vehicles with SOS licensing. Our legality hurdle is the 2WD rule, nothing more.
jim-kb8ymf
if you have contact information for said guide post it up, I dont see anything wrong with a few emails shot his way also.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 03:45 PM   #97
Rattler
Home Sweet Homicide
 
Rattler's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-17-06
Location: Bei City
Posts: 3,654
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I wish I had the editorial I mentioned earlier written by John Phillips. It would also be something worth mentioning how he ventured out on a trail alone in bad weather. It was a Fall issue it was in.

Anyone have a few issues back to check it out?
Rattler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 03:57 PM   #98
WalkerDI
Newbie
 
Join Date: 05-19-07
Location: Drummond Island/Michigan
Posts: 11
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

As far as I'm concerned, Jim is 100% correct.

In my opinion, the forest road definition thats currently on the State of Michigans books should be considered the single most serious problem all full sized 4x4 vehicle use is now facing, SOS licenced or not.

The way its begining to sound, to me, if a 2 track, by-way, trail or road (for lack of a better term) is NOT, by definition, deemed to be a forest road by local DNR law enforcement, [ie..NOT Passable in 2WD] and does not have any other qualifiers assigned to it, like an ORV trail marker, County Road Sign etc. Then as I'm begining to under stand it, that trail/byway is no longer to be considered an open road and can be closed to all further traffic. Its the DNR Law Enforcement Division's means of closing any now open 2track, trail, path, road etc.. on State Forest Land to full sized vehicular traffic as they see fit; actually they can close it to any kind of Off-Road traffic as far as that goes. Basicly, the local CO can bypass, at will, by invoking the forest road definition; the now existing Upper Peninsula's "open unless posted closed" laws/regs on any trail, 2 track, path or road within their jursdiction.

Talk about a gray area..... The way I see it,, unless some counter action is taken, any CO, on any given day, can issue a ticket or close a road on a whim. A person could legally run a road on Monday... Get a ticket on Thursday and return to see the whole thing bermed off and closed on Saturday. I realize its an extreme example in its brevity... but thats what happened to the Clear Lake here on Drummond in a short period of time. As I understand it, the same process is happening to other roads/trails on State Land across the U.P.

Without a better understanding of just how a "Forest Road" is truely defined on a State wide basis... or obtain a better understanding of just when the definition can be applied, or which user group it is actually going to be applied too.. {I did not hear of a single Hunter getting a ticket this past fall for using their 4x4 pick-up trucks on any of the same trails the Full Sized 4x4 folks were ticketed on this past summer} then in my opinion, each of us better check with their local CO to see what kind a mood he's in before they take their next Sunday ride into the backwoods.

Last edited by WalkerDI; January 7th, 2008 at 04:17 PM.
WalkerDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 04:23 PM   #99
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,539
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAH



http://www.gcsaa.org/cm/contentm/mod...s=MSwxMTcxLA==
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2008, 04:26 PM   #100
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,539
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Craig Hoffman:

Mailing address:
PO Box 83
Drummond Island, MI 49726

Home phone:
493-6589

Personal Email:
hoffman@sault.com

place of employment:
1-800-999-6343

his direct line:
906-493-5658

Work email:
choffman@alphacomm.net

Photo:
__________________

Last edited by clarkstoncracker; January 7th, 2008 at 04:31 PM.
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:33 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.34454 seconds with 81 queries