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Old December 18th, 2007, 05:42 AM   #21
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the other thing I learned is how to pray, this is a great model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKDC2iBQTYg
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Old December 18th, 2007, 11:05 AM   #22
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Christianity:

The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as his master, so you can remove an evil force from your sould that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Makes perfect sense.


That's funny poo right there, I don't care who you are.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 01:38 PM   #23
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So why does your realization of a need to trust and realization of your limited knowledge lead you to conclude so certainly that God is fake? Do you suppose that your limited control and limited knowledge can be so sure of this? Who do you say that Jesus is/was?

Sorry Dave, I actually must have been day dreaming of unicorns and dragons when I was reading this portion of your post.

Because they are there in form and actuallity. I believe in fact not hocus pocus (David Copperfield is pretty good though )
My control isn't limited to a point. I also have control over others and their lives. I choose to do right and expect the same in return. This is the basis of trust. No one is perfect though and I understand that. I don't need an imaginary friend, I prefer real ones (real ones bring over beer when they stop by).
I am not disputing that Jesus did live and did die on a cross. He was not the son of a virgin or of god. He was merely a Jewish carpenter. He was popular with the peasant just the same as Robin Hood. He helped the oppressed and gained great power. Look at Chavez in Venuzuala. He runs the govenment to help the poor working class. His power is growing immense. It is set upon history and time that makes them so different. What were the IQs of the peasants when Jesus was alive? What opportunities did they have? What luxuries did they have?
Answers: Very low; they were told what to think and do. Not much. None.
No wonder they would put so much faith into someone that could help them rise above what they currently had.

There are many that believe they are Jesus reborn again. Why can't they be the one? What would have to happen for you to actually believe this person? Instead of thinking they are a cook or crazy. Would it be seeing his image on a PB&J sandwich or grilled cheese just before he walked in the door?
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Old December 18th, 2007, 03:50 PM   #24
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So in your limited knowledge you find God to be non-existant because it involves the supernatural, and not the physical? So how sure are you about all this? Are you absolutely positive? It is possible God does not exist, or is it probable? Is something wholly dismissable ONLY on the grounds that is involves the supernatural, regardless of the evidence?

By the way, Matthew was an educated tax collector, Peter who lead the entire beginning of the Church was a fisherman, but he was a leader of men, Luke was an educated doctor (did you hear the word doctor?), and Paul was a political leader. You sure the men who followed him were just the average numbnut?

So if Jesus surely lived, died, and had a following, then you would either find him to be a lunatic or a liar. So which do you think he was?
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Old December 18th, 2007, 04:05 PM   #25
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My faith is renewed everyday when I see how god has blessed me even though I am sinful. I couldn't ask for a better life. Everytime I am with my husband I am amazed by how blessed I am.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 04:51 PM   #26
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So in your limited knowledge you find God to be non-existant because it involves the supernatural, and not the physical? So how sure are you about all this? Are you absolutely positive? It is possible God does not exist, or is it probable? Is something wholly dismissable ONLY on the grounds that is involves the supernatural, regardless of the evidence?

By the way, Matthew was an educated tax collector, Peter who lead the entire beginning of the Church was a fisherman, but he was a leader of men, Luke was an educated doctor (did you hear the word doctor?), and Paul was a political leader. You sure the men who followed him were just the average numbnut?

So if Jesus surely lived, died, and had a following, then you would either find him to be a lunatic or a liar. So which do you think he was?
Yes. Yes. As probable as the tooth fairy, unicorns, leprechauns, the Loch Ness monster, Easter Bunny, etc... Sorry, lacking evidence. (Like video of Bigfoot?)

Sorry for the confusion. Matthew, Peter, Luke, Paul, were all educated. It was the peasants, or masses, that I was referring to. They were followers and would have followed almost anyone that offered what Jesus was offering them. This holds true in the Middle East today where young males are extremely oppressed and are offered things unattainable to them on Earth. For them to have an existance (in their minds), they follow Allah and car bomb innocent peple so they may be rewarded in the after-life. Every religion is based on this "fear" and reward system.

No, actually. He was brilliant. He had power and a large following. There were some at the time that thought he was crazy for his thoughts though. It is all in the perspective. Look at Hitler for example. He was brilliant and a genius. He just used this to do extreme bad. There are many that still follow his teachings. He tried to make things better based on his objectives. (Glad it didn't work IMO!) Same went for Jesus in the opposite direction. He wanted to make things better. There are many religious leaders that have the same followings based on populations that Jesus had. Like I said before, it is a time/history situation that skews the comparisons.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 08:04 PM   #27
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Yes. Yes. As probable as the tooth fairy, unicorns, leprechauns, the Loch Ness monster, Easter Bunny, etc... Sorry, lacking evidence. (Like video of Bigfoot?)

Sorry for the confusion. Matthew, Peter, Luke, Paul, were all educated. It was the peasants, or masses, that I was referring to. They were followers and would have followed almost anyone that offered what Jesus was offering them. This holds true in the Middle East today where young males are extremely oppressed and are offered things unattainable to them on Earth. For them to have an existance (in their minds), they follow Allah and car bomb innocent peple so they may be rewarded in the after-life. Every religion is based on this "fear" and reward system.

No, actually. He was brilliant. He had power and a large following. There were some at the time that thought he was crazy for his thoughts though. It is all in the perspective. Look at Hitler for example. He was brilliant and a genius. He just used this to do extreme bad. There are many that still follow his teachings. He tried to make things better based on his objectives. (Glad it didn't work IMO!) Same went for Jesus in the opposite direction. He wanted to make things better. There are many religious leaders that have the same followings based on populations that Jesus had. Like I said before, it is a time/history situation that skews the comparisons.
I propose to you that with your own confession of limited knowledge, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be absolutley sure about ANYTHING. I further propose that your judgement call on this should be based solely on the evidence that Jesus was the God man, or only a man. But it seems that you have yet to explore the evidence one way or the other. From that evidence you will develop a probably scenario.

So what do you say about these educated men who not only followed Jesus, but started a revolution based solely on their eye witness accounts of his life? Do you know that they all died pretty horrible deaths for what they preached about? They saw something that changed them so greatly that the HAD to follow him. Do you suppose, then, that perhaps Jesus DID raise from the dead as he was claimed to have done? What else may have turned these men into hardkore followers, followers even until their murder?

You said some people thought Jesus was crazy. Keep in mind that Jesus not only said he was sent by God, but that he WAS God, and that he knew all things, that he was there to save the people, he predicted his own death, his own resurrection, the performed CRAZY miracles ALL the time. Then his predictions came true, he raised from the dead and it sparked a movement. So you said what others say, but what do YOU say about him? Do you think he lied and faked it all? Do you think he was a crazy man?

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Old December 18th, 2007, 08:12 PM   #28
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Yes, I think I need him. My life is so messed up I cant even stand it.
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Old December 18th, 2007, 09:07 PM   #29
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Dave, all your assumptions are based on a book and fables. There is historical evidence that certain things did occur and places and building did exist. A lot of it is exaggerated, ie - like fishing stories (the fish was THIS big). Again all religions are based on exaggerated stories to get you to believe that you are a small portion of a much larger picture.
Nostradamus predicted lots of shit too. Could he have been Jesus reincarnated?? Most predictions are based on loose wording and their interpretations. If you really want to believe it is a real prediction then I guess it is, even if in your own mind. Same as conspiracy theories.

Once again, every leader has their followers that truely believe they are correct and making an impact. They all feel they HAVE to follow and are willing to die for their beliefs. Can you say 'Waco'?

Based on your post, unicorns, dragons, and leprecauns are real until someone proves they don't exist. Or at least they have the probability that they exist. I better check under my bed tonight because there is a probability that there is a monster under there.
There is no logic in your post as to why there is a god. You are just regurgatating from the bible or what your preacher said. Have you traveled to Jerusalem to witness the holy land in all its glory or the Vatican to hear the pope preach his sermons? Instead you base everything on one interpretation and a book which was written by whom exactly? The ones with the education and ability to control the weak (ie- peasants/masses).

Why is it that the majority of individuals follow the same religion as their parents?? They aren't free thinkers. Same as soldiers. They do as they are told. They are followers. Doing as others instruct. Generals are the same as priests. Oh wait, in history the priest was the right hand man of the king. Same as a general under the president. See the connection. Look throughout history and the correlations are distinct.

Christianity is loosely based on portions of previous religions all piled into one. Everything about it is stolen. Read more books than just the bible and you will understand the difference between fantasy and reality. And if you say they are "bad" books, then you are not a free thinker and merely a brainwashed follower.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 11:01 AM   #30
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1. all your assumptions are based on a book and fables. There is historical evidence that certain things did occur and places and building did exist. A lot of it is exaggerated

2. Nostradamus predicted lots of shit too.

3. Once again, every leader has their followers that truely believe they are correct and making an impact. They all feel they HAVE to follow and are willing to die for their beliefs. Can you say 'Waco'?

4. Based on your post, unicorns, dragons, and leprecauns are real until someone proves they don't exist. Or at least they have the probability that they exist.

5. There is no logic in your post as to why there is a god. You are just regurgatating from the bible or what your preacher said. Have you traveled to Jerusalem to witness the holy land in all its glory or the Vatican to hear the pope preach his sermons?

6. Why is it that the majority of individuals follow the same religion as their parents?? They aren't free thinkers.
1. No, my belief is not based on fable, it is based on actual HISTORY, which you have already agreed is real. But what you have NOT commented on is my specific questions regarding your thoughts on Jesus Christ. You have intentionally avoided them, so this is your second invitation to answer them. Will you man up?

2. Yeah, and most of it did not happen. I can predict tons of stuff too, and if I do it enough times, I will eventually land something correctly. This is a moot point since you have not addressed number 1 yet.

3. You are correct, followers of leaders think they are correct, but are they? What separates one from another is an analysis of the claim and the backing of that claim. We will get there, if you allow the conversation to.

4. Wrong. What FACTS are there about unicorns that we can analyze? None? Oh ok, then they are different. Thanks for helping me to make that conclusion.

5. Believe me, we will get to logic if you allow the conversation to get that far, but you like to go on bunny trails. Catch up on what I have asked you, then we will get there. I have never been to the Holy Land, but even if I did, I cannot repeat and observe something from the past. I can, however, examine the evidence from a real part of history and make a sound conclusion.

6. I came to faith in Christ separate from anyone in my family. As a matter of fact, I was the first one, and most of my family followed suit, including my Mom. So what was your point again?

Please go back and address my priot statements before you jump into these.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 12:08 PM   #31
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1. Religion isn't a basis of history. There is no historical evidence of a god.

2. Predictions are a waste to discuss. This was started from your discussion.

3. In their minds they are correct, so yes. You think you are correct in believing in god and I am correct in not believing.
Analysis of a claim can always be skewed to favor your arguement. Look at Al Gore and global warming. There are a bunch of scientists that disproved his evidence in his movie. But they are blackballed from discussing it.

4. There are as many facts about an existance of a god as there are unicorns. At least with unicorns, there is still the chance we could unearth a skeleton just as are still learning about new dinosaurs that we didn't know existed. We don't even know about all the animals that live on this earth right now.

5. Again, you talk about evidence. What evidence points to there being a god?

6. You went to church on your own? You didn't attend with someone else first? You are in the minority by not following in your families footsteps.
Why not a Muslim? or Buddist? Convience that there is a church down the road?

I thought I answered you about Jesus:
Jesus was a man. Nothing more. He was a leader and had ideals that people believed in. None of this has anything to do with god. There are no FACTS that make Jesus the son of god. The facts state that yes there were these men and that certain events did happen and that locations are real locations. But none of it shows any existance of a god. There is a ton that can't be proven and could easily be called fable or exaggerated.

And yes, I'll take the conversation further. I don't mind your banter, it is quite entertaining and educational. I like to see others viewpoints. I may not agree but it is still neat to learn. I know I am not going to sway you and you will not sway me, but understanding others is a tool many never learn how to use. Instead they breed ignorance and hate.
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I dont care who you are. If it wasnt against the Bible. I would do everything in my power to make your life a living hell. I hope you get raped by the devil when you die!!.
Like this tool!
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Old December 19th, 2007, 12:17 PM   #32
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1. Religion isn't a basis of history. There is no historical evidence of a god.

3. In their minds they are correct, so yes. You think you are correct in believing in god and I am correct in not believing.
Analysis of a claim can always be skewed to favor your arguement. Look at Al Gore and global warming. There are a bunch of scientists that disproved his evidence in his movie. But they are blackballed from discussing it.

4. There are as many facts about an existance of a god as there are unicorns. At least with unicorns, there is still the chance we could unearth a skeleton just as are still learning about new dinosaurs that we didn't know existed. We don't even know about all the animals that live on this earth right now.

5. Again, you talk about evidence. What evidence points to there being a god?

6. You went to church on your own? You didn't attend with someone else first? You are in the minority by not following in your families footsteps.
Why not a Muslim? or Buddist? Convience that there is a church down the road?

I thought I answered you about Jesus:
Jesus was a man. Nothing more. He was a leader and had ideals that people believed in. None of this has anything to do with god. There are no FACTS that make Jesus the son of god. The facts state that yes there were these men and that certain events did happen and that locations are real locations. But none of it shows any existance of a god. There is a ton that can't be proven and could easily be called fable or exaggerated.

And yes, I'll take the conversation further. I don't mind your banter, it is quite entertaining and educational. I like to see others viewpoints. I may not agree but it is still neat to learn. I know I am not going to sway you and you will not sway me, but understanding others is a tool many never learn how to use. Instead they breed ignorance and hate.
1. There is, however, a historical account of a man named Jesus Christ who claimed he was God, and did certain things that would lead people to that conclusion. Your analysis should be on the claims of Christ, and the actions of Christ, which you don't seem to actually consider. It is real history, but the history draws you to both logic and faith.

3. Analysis can be skewed, but the facts cannot. There can be an easy determination of probability instead of possibility. I propose that the MOST probable explanation is that Jesus IS who he claimed. It is FAR more unlikely that he was not.

4. Ok, then present your facts for the existance of unicorns. I am anxious to hear them. Lets see if what you said is correct.

5. The evidence will be seen upon examining the life, the claims, and the actions of Jesus Christ. If you argree this is where the attention should be drawn, then we can dive in.

6. Yes I did upon the invitation of a friend who said there were a few babes there. Surely there was, but I discovered something much more valuable. I never heard the gospel message clearly before that time, and I was ready to be forgiven of my sins and begin the journey of knowing God. It has been ten years now, and I will never be the same. Not muslim or otherwise because it never made sense, and still doesn't. The church I attended did happen to be close, but its proximity was not the point, it was the message itself.

Last edited by Dave Kerwin; December 19th, 2007 at 12:27 PM.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:22 PM   #33
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3. Facts are based on analysis. You analyze something to realize what it is. How do you know your car has 250hp? Because the manufacturer said so? How do they know? They analyzed it and came to the conclusion. Is this a fact that your car has 250 hp? No. Until you analyze your engine, you will never know. Yours may have 255hp or 249hp.

4. I don't have any, just like there isn't any for god. Does it mean they never existed? You believe in the probabitity of things. Maybe one day someone will unearth one. That would be hard fact.

5. Lack of evidence whe you talking about claims, actions, and the way they live their life. This is all open to interpretation based on the view of others. Had Jesus written the bible it would make more sense but he didn't. Third person writings are skewed because actions and claims need to be interpreted by the author. They are then interpreted again by the reader.

You ever the do the little project where you tell someone something and then they repeat it to someone and then they tell it to someone, and so on. After about five people the story is completely different. Do this with ten people and the last person tells you at the end. Always gets skewed and misinterpreted. Religion over time takes this to the Nth degree. The only thing you have is a book and stories.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:34 PM   #34
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your responce on 1 & 3 ??
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Old December 19th, 2007, 05:38 PM   #35
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5. Again, you talk about evidence. What evidence points to there being a god?
What evidence is there saying that god isnt real? How did the first form of life get on earth???
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Old December 20th, 2007, 01:58 PM   #36
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your responce on 1 & 3 ??
btt for K&J's Dad
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Old December 20th, 2007, 05:05 PM   #37
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What evidence is there saying that god isnt real? How did the first form of life get on earth???
holy crap AJ, i already answered that question in another post...

Zeus.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 08:09 PM   #38
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What evidence is there saying that god isnt real? How did the first form of life get on earth???
It's called the Big Bang...

God had sex with black hole that nothing could escape and it orgasm'd all over the universe.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 11:08 PM   #39
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It's called the Big Bang...

God had sex with black hole that nothing could escape and it orgasm'd all over the universe.
That makes more sense than the normal big bang explanation. I never knew it was meant literally. With God involved, that big bang WOULD be possible.




p.s. K&J'sDad is skeered
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Old December 21st, 2007, 04:49 PM   #40
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It's called evolution. Started with a single microbe. Conditions were right on this planet and not others. This is why we have life and the other planets do not.
Scared of what you? All your questions? That's all you have are questions; no answers. You try to answer everything with, "god did it". This is your crutch through life.
I also rescind that Jesus was a carpenter. Now there is evidence that he wasn't. Scholars can't even translate the word "tekton" in greek. Some say carpenter, others say laborer. So maybe Jesus was merely someone who worked with his hands. This would have made him the lowest of the peasant.
If they have trouble translating this word, how many other word are wrong creating a false story or meaning?

Why does there have to meaning to our lives? Is there a meaning as to why my dog is here? Or the pines in my backyard? Not really. The strong survive, and weak die off. Simple as that.

You quote from a fictional book and so will I:
"I've met God across his long walnut desk with his diplomas hanging on the wall behind him, and God asks me, "Why?" Why did I cause so much pain? Didn't I realize that each of us is a sacred, unique snowflake of special unique specialness? Can't I see how we're all manifestations of love? I look at God behind his desk, taking notes on a pad, but God's got this all wrong. We are not special. We are not crap or trash, either. We just are. We just are, and what happens just happens. And God says, "No, that's not right." Yeah. Well. Whatever. You can't teach God anything."
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile." ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
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